I agree those changes will help balance, but they do nothing to help add in diversity or fun in the game. The pistols all basically do the same thing (no point in having all of them anymore, might as well remove the .44 and mk23 and keep the HC as pre-update.) Though that may be wording it the wrong way, as AR's do the same thing too.
Handcannon thread. Theory, balancing, anything about it.
- Thread starter Utopia-Phoenix
- Start date
I agree those changes will help balance, but they do nothing to help add in diversity or fun in the game. The pistols all basically do the same thing (no point in having all of them anymore, might as well remove the .44 and mk23 and keep the HC as pre-update.) Though that may be wording it the wrong way, as AR's do the same thing too.
If a "block" of carrying capacity is supposed to roughly represent a kilogram of weight, then the Killing Floor universe is representing reality fairly well by having the Mk.23, the .44 Magnum revolver, and the 9mm pistol weigh-in at 2 blocks or less. (The heavyweight of that trio, the Mk.23, comes in at a little over 1.5kg.)
IRL, a pair of Desert Eagles does indeed tip the scales at just a bit over 4Kg.; the fact that a single Handcannon within the game *also* weighs 4kg. is just Killing Floor being Killing Floor. And, that is, of course, just fine.
As you may deduce from the above, I'm not liking any suggestions advocating 3 or 4-block "weight" for the Mk.23. Yeah, I know, KF isn't Real-Life
IRL, a pair of Desert Eagles does indeed tip the scales at just a bit over 4Kg.; the fact that a single Handcannon within the game *also* weighs 4kg. is just Killing Floor being Killing Floor. And, that is, of course, just fine.
As you may deduce from the above, I'm not liking any suggestions advocating 3 or 4-block "weight" for the Mk.23. Yeah, I know, KF isn't Real-Life
why nerf the magnum? do you feel it is imbalanced currently? i think it is fine the way it is considering it gains no recoil reduction from sharp.
You're basically asking it to become a 3-block 9mm replacement.
I'm okay with removing penetration, but you got to remember that the Mk23 is to pistols what the AK is to the commando. It's the versatile can't-go-wrong-with-it choice.
The problem is not with the Mk23. It's with the .44 and HC. They act differently, but they excel at absolutely nothing.
A massive, sluggish, recoil-heavy, low-capacity, expensive, high-weight cannon currently does nothing that the Mk23 can't do. If it could just - only just - oneshot the weakest specimen in the game, it'd be earning its place as the best pistol in the game, a justification for its (mostly negative) attributes. It already does have higher damage, but with the ammo capacity and fire speed and ease of use presented by both the maggie and mk23, the difference is meaningless. It needs a measly, what, 8 damage to become meaningful?
The maggie is weak as piss for a gun that fires only 6 shots at a time and comes at its price. Most people don't use it because it's basically ****. It's only good for headshots, really, but both the Mk23 AND the HC are better choices.
If the Magnum was considerably cheaper (250-300) and it had a minor increase to its headshot multiplier, it becomes truly special. It's a cheap sidearm that is really good in the hands of someone with good shooting skills, much like the LAR is as a main weapon. It's hardly an overpowered change either as the
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No one is noticing my changes in stats. Instead of trying NOT-EXAMINED numbers of damage, I chose the EXACT damage of 2 existing weapons.
Handcannon damage. From 115 to 140. Exactly the same damage as LAR on bodyshot (not on headshot).
MK23 damage. From 82 to 65. Exactly the same damage as the SCAR.
Neither lar nor scar has been claimed OP till now. The pistols, if changed their stats like I mentioned above, will be very likely to function right without creating even more trouble like TWI had done before.
Handcannon damage. From 115 to 140. Exactly the same damage as LAR on bodyshot (not on headshot).
MK23 damage. From 82 to 65. Exactly the same damage as the SCAR.
Neither lar nor scar has been claimed OP till now. The pistols, if changed their stats like I mentioned above, will be very likely to function right without creating even more trouble like TWI had done before.
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Another thing about the pistols is how NOT unique they feel anymore (similar issue as the Commando weapons, but that's a different topic). The Handcannon, MK23 and 9mm are all regular kind of pistols, while the 9mm is the most unique of them (has a flashlight). The Magnum is unique just in itself by being a revolver, but it feels not so different at all to the Handcannon.
How would i change them? Like this:
On top of all this, make the dual pistol aiming bug go away (make them as accurate as if wielding one pistol, the aiming bug is HORRENDOUSLY bad. This bug is fixed (as expected
) in Poosh's mutator )
How would i change them? Like this:
Spoiler!
On top of all this, make the dual pistol aiming bug go away (make them as accurate as if wielding one pistol, the aiming bug is HORRENDOUSLY bad. This bug is fixed (as expected
) in Poosh's mutator )
Another thing about the pistols is how NOT unique they feel anymore (similar issue as the Commando weapons, but that's a different topic). The Handcannon, MK23 and 9mm are all regular kind of pistols, while the 9mm is the most unique of them (has a flashlight). The Magnum is unique just in itself by being a revolver, but it feels not so different at all to the Handcannon.
How would i change them? Like this:
Spoiler!
On top of all this, make the dual pistol aiming bug go away (make them as accurate as if wielding one pistol, the aiming bug is HORRENDOUSLY bad. This bug is fixed (as expected
We can all dream. But TWI will never fix the dualies bug just like many other bugs they don't care about . Like weapons shooting differently when aiming down sights.
Husk cannon and nade launcher shoot off center, slightly down to the right when not aiming down sights. And the flare revolver shoots slightly to the right when not ADSing.
\o/ It's nice to see someone that wants to buff the other options and make them viable instead of nerfing everything so they all suck equally.
Here is my personal take on the .44 Magnum:
At the moment, its potential rivals that of the Handcannon. Per shot, the .44 Magnum deals with the same threats as well as the Handcannon does (2 shots for Husks + Sirens, 1 shot for everything below), yet it has 30 more shots than the HC has. The .44 Magnum does have two drawbacks that the Handcannon doesn't have however: 6 bullets per magazine and greater recoil. As for recoil, there is a certain ratio between recoil and firerate where it starts to matter, which is why most players go semi-auto on Commando weapons so it would be easier to compensate. Though the .44 Magnum has a fast firerate, if you have to resort to spamming it, you're either a) getting ambushed or b) not playing Sharpshooter as it is meant to be played (or need to touch up on your aim). As for a), a difficulty of dealing with being ambushed is a drawback that the Sharpshooter needs in compensation for its efficiency in taking out large targets and for b) if you're landing consistent headshots, there is no need to spam fire at its maximum firerate (if you can clean hoards of trash specimens with the M14 on 6p, this should not be a problem).
This being said, the heavier recoil of the .44 Magnum makes very little difference for someone who is landing consistent headshots (as Sharpshooters are meant to be played).
If the damage doesn't get nerfed on the .44 Magnum, it still becomes a superior option to the Handcannon since it not only has an equal potential to the HC, but also allows the MK23 to be carried at the same time. One of the potential changes I did consider was increasing the MK23 and the .44 Magnum's weight to 3 so that they can't be carried in tandem (and would make players choose between the .44 Magnum for longevity or the Handcannon for larger magazine sizes), but this would still result in players opting for the MK23 over all other pistols (if the MK23's were left as the same).
I also read somewhere that the MK23's are made to be a "Can't go wrong" option. Well, ofc you can't go wrong with choosing a gun that is "too good". If, hypothetically, you had a gun that had infinite ammo per mag, shot infinite shots per second, had spread and penetration, killed every enemy with 1 bullet, and came free, you can't go wrong with choosing that either which is the problem with saying that "you can't go wrong with x weapon".
I also read that the .44 Magnum is no good outside of headshots. Saying that a Sharpshooter weapon is no good outside of headshots only sounds like whining. If you pick up a Sharpshooter weapon, you're expected to land headshots. If you get rewarded with landing bodyshots (as suggestions of the HC single-bodyshotting crawlers will do), then you are only rewarded for sloppy aim. If you miss that one headshot on a crawler, then you (as a Sharpshooter who is "designed" to headshot specimens) have to feel the consequences of spending that one extra ammo cost with the Handcannon's maximum bullet capacity of 96. If you don't want to feel this consequence as heavily, then play Commando which has a maximum ammo capacity of a couple hundred bullets. Then you (as a Commando who is "designed" to clean trash zeds) will have no problem with this issue, but this is compensated by having more difficulty against the bigger threats.
And if you can't accept that Sharpshooters are built to headshot (as they have no bonuses on bodyshots) or if you can't accept the consequences of having sloppy aim, then you aren't ready to play Sharpshooter on Hell on Earth and should play awhile on Suicidal (where such consequences do not exist) until you are ready to accept the consequences that a higher difficulty presents for poor play.
As far as I can remember, the magnum has fewer rounds per clip (magasine, idc) than a HC, slower reload, more ammunition, more recoil, faster firing speed.
However, sharpshooters are meant to headshot not bodyshot, so to me, the recoil and faster firing speed makes little difference.
However, the larger ammo pool also makes no difference because the slower reload and fewer rounds per clip combined with the fact that you're shooting for heads means that I rarely get through an entire HC's ammo supple, much less be left wanting more.
Damage is kinda moot because on most places that matter, AFAICR most of the time you'll kill in the same number of shots.
So the relevant factors for me are:
Lower weight
Smaller ammo count per clip (whatever)
At which point they both get blown out of the water by the Mk23.
Agree to both of these. As for the weight factor for the .44 Magnum, it still permits it to be carried with the MK23 while still being as powerful as the Handcannon, and is why I want to nerf both the MK23 and .44 Magnum to make the MK23+.44 Magnum combo and the Handcannon equally viable. (Again doing the opposite to have the HC one-bodyshot crawlers only draws the Sharpshooter away from its intended role.)
And see?
There are players that have no problem with having a Handcannon last throughout a wave even without single-bodyshotting a crawler to death. So there is really no reason at all to buff the Handcannon since it already performs so well (who said that the Handcannon was weak?).
I imagine the body-shotting crawlers would be to make it more attractive than either the MK23 or the .44 for off-perk usage. Sharps should be aiming for the face anyway, so on-perk it doesn't really matter. If I have to option to kill something with a body shot or a head shot, I'd still go for the headshot since that's going to count towards the perk stats, as much fun as it is to just spam a magazine down the hallway.
I'm also sure that the M99 was attractive as well since it rewarded players for crap aim. Missed that crucial headshot on a Scrake? That's fine, the bodyshot-stun will still permit the Scrake to go down with laughable ease for any player of any skill level.
Single-Bodyshotting the crawlers should be left with the Lever-Action Rifle which has a slow firerate, longer reload (let's say 8 bullets of the LaR vs. 8 bullets of the Handcannon to be fair), non-penetrating damage, 80 total bullets, and 6 block weight. If you want a 4 block weight, 96 bullet capacity, penetrating, faster firing, much faster reloading variant of the LaR off perk, then Suicidal difficulty is the way to go where everything is as easy as you wish it to be.
But you said that you still go for the headshots so would the ability to single-bodyshot crawlers really mean anything for you? The only time where this would really matter is an instance of sloppy aim, in which case you just have to be better at aiming. Otherwise, if the crawlers are coming at some really difficult angle, lets say in Foundry for example when you're going down the stairs next to where you spawn in (a lot of crawlers spawn here), then that is just an added difficulty that you'll have to, and should, deal with for choosing the Handcannon on Hell on Earth (it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in game after all).
It is just one of the couple differences that make Hell on Earth different than Suicidal. Take these away, even just one, and you make Hell on Earth a whole lot closer to Suicidal. As you move up to Hell on Earth, some weapon loadouts should lose a bit of their effectiveness. As players make the jump from 6p Hard to 6p Suicidal, they realize that holding just the AA12 alone is no longer an effective loadout for the challenges provided in this new difficulty. The same applies for players making the leap from Suicidal to Hell on Earth.
And the changes I proposed makes the .44 Magnum + MK23 combo equally as attractive as the Handcannon for their new, different strengths and weaknesses. The goal here is to make the Handcannon as appealing as the .44 Magnum + MK23 combo. Some players aim to do this by changing the weapon to reward poor play (which is also known as Overpowered), but my suggested changes aim to do the opposite, so players are forced to improve themselves and are punished more so for exercising a lesser ability to play.
I disagree, the Handcannon has a much more powerful and precise feel, a very reliable side-arm.
The .44 magnum has much more recoil, worse sights, lower capacity - but makes up for it with the high ammo pool.
I'd say the .44 is much more similar to the MK23, just with half the capacity and twice the recoil =p
your suggested nerfs to the magnum would also make it much more worthless as an offperk weapon, where it is most useful. Yes the Magnum is able to rival the HC on term of base damage, but dont even try and say that it is an equally effective sidearm, because its just not, plain and simple.
the magnum has been the premier offperk sidearm since its induction two christmases ago, and i think it fits that role perfectly, not to mention being balanced as sharpshooter as well. The MK23 changed this, it is no longer the go to offperk sidearm, and it completely decimates it as sharpshooter.
i understand your feelings towards the MK23 + Magnum combo outshining the HC, i love the HC just as much as the next guy, but you can only really nerf something so far before it becomes completely useless, and the main problem in that combination isnt the magnum, but rather the MK23. Your suggested nerfs to both might to make that combo more in line with the HC, but only when the two are paired, and ONLY when playing as sharpshooter, leaving both individual pistols quite lackluster.
one of the best things about this game is the freedom of choice, and the ability to mix and match weapons from different perks and still be able to play effectively. i dont think you should always look at a certain weapon from its intended perk view, as this shuts down a lot of the creativity and variety that this game offers; vanilla loadouts might be the most effective, but after playing them through and through, they become quite boring.
To top it off, most people would still rather take the Mk23/Magnum simply for the higher ammunition pool. You have to think about it this way, most people in the KF community do not play hoe regularly, so the lower damage of the MK on bodyshots isn't much of a difference considering how quick everything dies on lower difficulties. You also have to take into consideration that the IJC pack is part of the game now whether we like it or not, and TWI has shown no intention of touching any of those weapons statwise.
So your main concern with my suggestion is with its offperk usage. Fair enough.
If the .44 Magnum were to be nerfed to have the damage and penetration reduced to that of the MK23, then here are the consequences that would follow:
-It would now take 3 body shots (before 2) to kill a Stalker (But then again, picking up a Sharpshooter weapon, are you really expecting to use it for bodyshots? Sure you may not be playing the class, but as the Sharpshooter's weapon, it was designed to be effective when playing in a Sharpshooter play style).
-It would now hit 3 enemies instead of 4 (but with the damage reduction per penetration even on headshots when off perk, would the damage make that much of a difference?)
-It would now that 5 headshots (before 4) to take out a 6p Husk/Siren on Hell on Earth (But how often is it that you have to land 4 headshots out of the 6 bullet per magazine capacity in quick succession?)
And I'm sure that Scrakes and Fleshpounds are out of the question (Unless you have a combo that you can show me since I am unfamiliar with unorthodox loadouts).
Also you have to consider: As a weapon that weighs only "one" block more than the Machete (though I know that the Machete can be useful for Flinch-locking Scrakes and Melee Locking Patriarch), how powerful do you expect this weapon to be? The .44 Magnum rivals the Handcannon in many ways. In fact, I'd like to say that it has as much potential as the Handcannon yet only weighs half as much.
So again consider: Do you believe that a 2 block "Handcannon" is justified? Users of the .44 Magnum will lose very few advantages, none of which really matters (or at least that I believe; you may believe differently), so is there really a problem with giving the .44 Magnum MK23 strength when used off perk?
Responding in such a manner to my quote implies the increasing of base damage for all of these weapons:
But doing so would make Sharpshooter weapons way more powerful than they should be and again as I've said many, many times before: reward Sharpshooters for crap aim.
Not using a weapon correctly yet yielding equally/near equally positive results isn't overpowered right? Having one's terrible aim on Crawlers produce the same result as aiming to headshot; permitting spamfire to clear crawler swarms with minimal ammo costs and zero effort. Or using the M99 to bodystun scrakes even with sloppy aim. Both are fitting for Hell on Earth difficulty right?
Not to mention that this would very much so depreciate the Lever Action for off perk usage. If all perks began to use these "sidearms" (as if they were made more to be played off perk than as a Sharpshooter), then we may as well toss the Commando. Every perk would now be able to take out trash as easily as the Commando can, even more so since the Commando can't even 1 shot a crawler on a bodyshot. Class balance didn't matter right?
The greatest ease of trash clearing was supposed to be left to the Commando who did not feel the consequences of bad aim (that being tighter ammo capacity that the Sharpshooter had to deal with), but it'd be perfectly fine to have the Sharpshooter even take over the Commando's niche right?
Seemingly so.
Seemingly most players cannot accept the added difficulty that Hell on Earth provides. They want to play Suicidal and claim that they're playing Hell on Earth to feed their ego and not kill their pride.