half track variants

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species8472

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 8, 2007
25
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usa
The gmans had a mess of variants for the track. The ones that stand out were a flamethrower version, one with 3MG positions and the last with a howitzer mounted on it. The last two would be awesome and fairly easy to integrate.

also, why can't I shoot into a tracks carrage from above/ throw a grenade in....
please fix.:)
 

18Bravo

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2006
525
1
0
Tennessee, USA
At least the russians don't have to worry about the rocket halftrack. though after firing all 6 rockets, it would take like 10 minutes (estimate) to reload them if they weren't under fire. Wouldn't mind a halftrack that had the rear mg mount as well, but also had the rear doors opened.
 

Aeneas2020

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2006
1,016
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still wanting to know how these chages are "easy"...shud do them urself in that case :p
 

Slyk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2006
1,277
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www.after-hourz.com
Yep, gotta love all these "...must be easy/can't be that hard..." comments. By now there should be like what, 513 completed mods and 1,204 new vehicles with 329 player weapons and at least 583 new uniforms, barnyard animals, flying creatures of all sorts, and a catering service that delivers hot meals and cold beer to the winning team via email at round end while directing you to the nearest whore house with a pack of trusty "Trojans" in hand and a bottle of ointment...wait, is the ointment for after the whores or for after reading yet another "easy to make" thread? I'm so confused.




if more yahoos would pick up tools and learn something...ah...not worth the rant...
 

Recce

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
605
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And if something that is truely "easy" is added to the game, such as the PzIV G, then there are cries of "It's so similar to the Aust F/2; why did they bother?"
The thing is, a lot of people have no idea how difficult and / or time consuming developing can be.
 

TT33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2007
571
159
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Well m8 the Panzer IV G was more numerous and it had 80mm's of frontal armor in the front rather than the 50mm on the 175 of the so called "F2's". Assuming you are using armored Beasts or a similar realism mod the Panzer ausf"G"( if you speak of the early 75mm /L43 or later L/48) would be very difficult for a t-34/76 to knock out.

The thing is, a lot of people have no idea how difficult and / or time consuming developing can be.
Very true mate even in an ideal world when their is no human error one must check/test for bugs that are unaccounted for. As slyk said if it were truely that easy then we would have several completed mods with guns and vehicles.
 

OneShot

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2007
244
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South East Coast of Florida USA
... and a catering service that delivers hot meals and cold beer to the winning team via email at round end while directing you to the nearest whore house with a pack of trusty "Trojans" in hand and a bottle of ointment....

Now that is a mod team I would be willing to work on !! :) If nothing else count me in for the beta testing, besides who needs German HT's with a mod like that?;)
 
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Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Any addition to the game should be something that fundamentally changes or broadens gameplay options. Adding this or that variant of an existing vehicle is (a) not that easy and (b) a waste of time often.

Given the amount of work it takes to add in even "simple" things, best to spend that energy on something different from what we already have. Personally, I think the Pz IV G was a waste of time. Likewise, I think adding in, say, a T-34-76 with the hexagonal turret would be a waste of time.

So, instead of 15 different halftrack variants, I'd rather see something like, oh, a Pz II or a T-26 or T-28 for a map set during the Winter War or early in Barbarossa.
 

Aeneas2020

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2006
1,016
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Adding this or that variant of an existing vehicle is (a) not that easy and (b) a waste of time often.

Given the amount of work it takes to add in even "simple" things, best to spend that energy on something different from what we already have..

actually we're just lazy, i have some seriously overdue loafing to get back to once i finish sitting on my backside all day :D

(that isnt a sarcastic comment aimed at u btw i do agree with everything u said)
 

Tank!

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 9, 2007
207
353
0
Personally, I think the Pz IV G was a waste of time.

So, instead of 15 different halftrack variants, I'd rather see something like, oh, a Pz II or a T-26 or T-28 for a map set during the Winter War or early in Barbarossa.

The Panzer IV G seeing that some had a better gun and thicker armor than the Pz IV F2 and was most produced was a very good vehicle to add. The 'waste of time' was having the rare F2 version in game to begin with. If the "G" is a 'waste of time' then one would wonder why TW wasted its time adding a T34/85 when the 34/76 was sufficient.

Adding early war vehicles would be a 'waste of time' seeing that this game currently focuses on the mid to late war period (Do we even have any official barbarossa maps?)

Anyway HT varients would be a nice add to the game. Looking forward to the Pak 40 251/22
 
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Recce

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
605
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About the whole "waste of time" thing, rather than arguing this particular case (that someone did post, but I can't be a***d to find it), it shows that you can't please everyone all of the time, and no matter what you do someone will disagree with you. And I think that's been proven in this thread.
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
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The Panzer IV G seeing that some had a better gun and thicker armor than the Pz IV F2 and was most produced was a very good vehicle to add. The 'waste of time' was having the rare F2 version in game to begin with. If the "G" is a 'waste of time' then one would wonder why TW wasted its time adding a T34/85 when the 34/76 was sufficient.

Maybe I'm thinking of the Panzer IV H that was recently added. I agree that adding the F2 was a waste of time when they could've just added the G from the start and left it at that. Regardless, given how the game operated, adding the G and/or H models was relatively unnecessary in terms of differences in in-game performance. The gun isn't so dramatically better that it can beat an angled T-34 of either variety, and the armor isn't so dramatically better that it can survive that much longer. Pretty much a mid-war tank fight is a mid-war tank fight in this game, regardless of which tank you're driving.

Now, with AB, that's different, but I'm talking stock RO. The G/H models may have had real meaningful differences in real life, but in terms of gameplay, it basically means you survive one extra shot -- maybe. Most of the time you're still dead in 2 hits. So in that sense, they spent all that time adding these things and not a whole hell of a lot changed.

Adding early war vehicles would be a 'waste of time' seeing that this game currently focuses on the mid to late war period (Do we even have any official barbarossa maps?)

That's actually my point. We DON'T have any early war maps, and the game already focuses on the mid/late-war. So why add more of the same? Adding early war tanks would BROADEN the game considerably and would drastically change how tank warfare plays out. Cavalry tanks and light tanks would have to be used VERY differently from medium tanks. You can't just drive, park, and shoot with a light tank. Maneuvering is far more important. Likewise, the early war tanks played drastically different roles from the mid- and late-war tanks.

Before tank doctrine changed to the more medium-tank oriented force, the Soviet doctrine was closer to the British doctrine of slow-moving, heavy-hitting infantry tanks designed to be supported closely by infantry and built for taking out entrenched targets, and fast-moving cavalry tanks or cruiser tanks designed to exploit the breaches in the lines created by the heavier infantry tanks. That's quite different from the German doctrine which was more oriented around medium tanks (albeit medium tanks performing split duties such as the Panzer III/Panzer IV split in roles).

This means you have asymmetrical forces on the field, which requires players to fight differently and use different tactics than just drive, park, shoot, blow up, rinse, repeat. So, again, that means the gameplay BROADENS, rather than stays the same just with a shiny new model with slightly tweaked stats (which result in a negligible difference in actual gameplay).


Think of it this way. Let's say we had the choice of giving the Russians a new infantry weapon. Your choices are:

A. A lend-lease British Mills grenade or American "pinepple" grenade.

B. A Nagant revolver

or

C. A Maxim HMG.


I'd pick C above all the others. why? Because it'd change how the game is played far more than A or B. With A, you're really just reskinning the F1 grenade. Oh, sure, you can argue that the pineapple grenade had more of a fragmentary effect and thus was more deadly in terms of lethal wounds according to these six textbooks. But in the end, it's really just another grenade that'll operate exactly like the current one, and whose differences in performance will go unnoticed in terms of actual gameplay. The differences are all on paper, not in practice.

With B, there'd be a difference (IE: slower reload, perhaps a harder-hitting round), but without weapon jams being modeled, the only reason people would pick it is for novelty's sake, and they'd soon end up switching back to the Tokarev. Regardless, even if the pistol was strikingly different in performance (and had enough advantages to warrant its use), people rarely use pistols anyway.

With C, the Russians would have an actual belt-fed heavy MG that'd require careful placement, but which (once emplaced) could be extremely effective in a defensive role. Moreso than the DP-28, assuming the operator stays alive long enough to put it to use.


These are the kinds of considerations that ought to go into deciding what to add next. Will it change the gameplay in any noticeable way? Will it broaden the game or just give us more of the same with fancy new graphics? While the differences in performance look good on paper, will it actually amount to any real difference when people play? Or is it just being added to satsify folks who want every version of a given item, no matter how insignificant the differences are?


Anyway HT varients would be a nice add to the game. Looking forward to the Pak 40 251/22

I agree that a halftrack with a mounted pak40 might change gameplay, but I don't think it'd change it enough to warrant adding that instead of something else that'd create a fundamentally different way of playing the game. The BT-7, for example, was a BIG change. Unfortunately, we currently have only one map where it gets used, but if it were added to other tnak maps, it'd lead to considerably different gameplay. Likewise with the upcoming KV-1B. Pit a force of KV-1Bs and BT-7s against a force of Pz IV F1s and Pz IIIs, and you'll have yourself a very interesting and different fight from what we usually see in the game.
 

TT33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2007
571
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The G/H models may have had real meaningful differences in real life, but in terms of gameplay, it basically means you survive one extra shot -- maybe. Most of the time you're still dead in 2 hits. So in that sense, they spent all that time adding these things and not a whole hell of a lot changed........rather than stays the same just with a shiny new model with slightly tweaked stats (which result in a negligible difference in actual gameplay)

Thats the real problem isnt it? Nothing has changed when it should have been. In terms of realism the Panzer IV G (late) and H had increased frontal armor to 80 mm. In terms of gameplay this would mean that Soviet tankers would have to pay closer attention to detail to similarly looking tanks to distinguish if its an F2/G (early) with an easily penetrable 50 mm front or the tougher G (late)/H with an 80 mm front which can cause a lot of penetrating trouble for the Soviet 76 mm cannons. On top of this the Pz IV Hs cannon performance is superior to the F2s even more so with APCR. This makes all the difference when facing heavy tanks.

The point is it should not be negligible but rather a nasty surprize to inexperienced tankers who cannot tell the difference between tanks. The unnecessary variant in my opinion would be the Panzer IV J the last Panzer IV model produced which was virtually the same as the "H" but with increased fuel tankage. Seeing that range is not modeled in game there would be no point in modeling it.
 
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Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
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Thats the real problem isnt it? Nothing has changed when it should have been. In terms of realism the Panzer IV G (late) and H had increased frontal armor to 80 mm. In terms of gameplay this would mean that Soviet tankers would have to pay closer attention to detail to similarly looking tanks to distinguish if its an F2/G (early) with an easily penetrable 50 mm front or the tougher G (late)/H with an 80 mm front which can cause a lot of penetrating trouble for the Soviet 76 mm cannons. On top of this the Pz IV Hs cannon performance is superior to the F2s even more so with APCR. This makes all the difference when facing heavy tanks.

The point is it should not be negligible but rather a nasty surprize to inexperienced tankers who cannot tell the difference between tanks. The unnecessary variant in my opinion would be the Panzer IV J the last Panzer IV model produced which was virtually the same as the "H" but with increased fuel tankage. Seeing that range is not modeled in game there would be no point in modeling it.


Oh, I agree, but even the I'd add only the G or the H. Whichever was the more common model or the model used over a longer period of time. Part of the problem is the tank maps we have, though -- which are small enough scale that everyone should be penetrating in one shot most of the time anyway (except Krivoi Rog and some custom maps).

But, my underlying point is that it's not worth it for TWI to spend the time and effort making every little variant of this or that piece of equipment. Better to use their resources to broaden the gameplay experience instead of giving us more of the same.