Guns Are Way Too Accurate

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Maizel

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 21, 2011
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No I rather inform the misinformed, but its getting annoying. Even the devs have commented about it. Random *** swaying doesn't = realistic, making something difficult just for the sake of difficulty doesn't = realism, it's stupidity. You also joined in 2011 so I think it's safe to say you're a NEWB.

Are you so pro you forgot how to read?

Where did I ever say it was unrealistic? Please read my other post in this thread. I said that for some it might hurt gameplay.

It seems you disagree with me, but have too much of an E-ego to not to defend your case to the death, to someone who isn't even disagreeing with you.

I'm entitled to my opinions.
 

slyder73

Active member
Aug 3, 2006
826
79
28
Vancouver
Then maybe you should keep your mouth shut.

Alot of the things currently in the game are unrealistic, but to many they make the gameplay better
The current accuracy of weapons does probably make gameplay worse for alot of people. They are allowed to voice their opinions, they're not noobs.

The current accuracy (realistic accuracy) of the weapons is what is bringing back all of us RO1 veterans and will bring in a huge new community who will be around another 5 years.

If the op would prefer randomly inaccurized weapons, there are plenty of games out there for that; Call of Duty series, Battlefield etc. But RO was and now still is a realism based game. The weapons we use in game are pretty bang on.

Get some buddies who have some of the guns together sometime if you don't believe it and get out to the range. These guns were as accurate then as now and you would be hard pressed to miss anything at 100 yards with any rifle and 25 yards or so with pistol you should be able to get a couple with every magazine on mark. Closer ranges and all but impossible to miss; which brings up the argument that the PPSH is not accurate enough, which I agree with.

There is often mentioned the sway as well. Even if you are tired and a bit exhausted, your gun isn't swaying randomly. Try it; for safety sake don't run around with your gun at the range but hold your breath a moment then breathe very heavy while trying to shoot. The "sway" is a pretty predictable motion with your breathing. I would not want to see some random sway incrased in game in order to artificially dumb down shooting skills.
 
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brain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2010
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I fully agree that the the guns - specifically the semi auto rifles, bolt action rifles, and the MP40 - are too accurate. MGs are pretty useless except as ambush or chokepoint camping weapons, and those uses are so limited that the slots are rarely taken up.

Another disadvantage is that MGs in houses must be set up in windows, so even when you take cover you can be shot through the wall since everyone knows where you are.


Being able to hit a head sized target at 200m after sprinting for 30 seconds is impossible, if anyone on this forum can do it twice in a row I'll eat my shoes. Mosins could only expect 3-4moa of accuracy anyway, at 200yards (200meters is even more!) that means an 8 inch group... So basically you'd have to aim EXACTLY at the center of his head to get reliable hits. When you're out of breath and you've been carrying a heavy *** full-stocked rifle around all day, that simply isn't in the cards.


Fix:
Remove the "hold breath" feature that comes with Shift zoom. It is stupid and unrealistic. Make the unzoomed zoom more aggressive, especially when suppressed or when stamina is low, and apply it to the zoomed view. Make supporting your rifle much more important - that way people are encouraged to use cover, which means that as a machine gunner, I have a brief quarter second where you are popping up that I can use to suppress them.


The current accuracy (realistic accuracy) of the weapons is what is bringing back all of us RO1 veterans and will bring in a huge new community who will be around another 5 years.

If the op would prefer randomly inaccurized weapons, there are plenty of games out there for that; Call of Duty series, Battlefield etc. But RO was and now still is a realism based game. The weapons we use in game are pretty bang on.

Get some buddies who have some of the guns together sometime if you don't believe it and get out to the range. These guns were as accurate then as now and you would be hard pressed to miss anything at 100 yards with any rifle and 25 yards or so with pistol you should be able to get a couple with every magazine on mark. Closer ranges and all but impossible to miss; which brings up the argument that the PPSH is not accurate enough, which I agree with.

There is often mentioned the sway as well. Even if you are tired and a bit exhausted, your gun isn't swaying randomly. Try it; for safety sake don't run around with your gun at the range but hold your breath a moment then breathe very heavy while trying to shoot. The "sway" is a pretty predictable motion with your breathing. I would not want to see some random sway incrased in game in order to artificially dumb down shooting skills.



You're out of your mind, lol. Laser guns that make teamwork unneccessary is exactly what RO1 vets DON'T want - if we must get into epeen stretching, I've been playing RO since version 2 of the mod, I guess that qualifies me as a veteran.

Also, refer to my post above... The current accuracy is NOT realistic. Mosins are not lasers to 200yards. Soldiers are not walking bench rests.

You say that guns don't "sway around randomly". Nobody said random. But they DO sway, so either you've never actually been to a shooting range or you are lying through your teeth. It is completely impossible to hold a gun perfectly steady, good shooters learn to compensate for their body's natural motions by firing at certain points in the cycle and breathing steadily. IRL it is a bit more complicated, but a steady sway (with a slight pause at the bottom of the cycle) would do fine to emulate real life.
 
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Neuromante

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2006
228
20
0
In WWII firearms were nothing new. Mass-produced firearms had over 130 years of refinement before WWII came around. All firearms are designed and engineered to be as accurate as possible whilst also being managable to handle whilst firing.

Saying the guns are too accurate for WWII is like saying that cars of today drive too smoothly. Welcome to realism, do you have a problem with it? Unrealistic shooters employ recoil inaccuracy as balancing mechanics against damage and rate of fire. These are woefully unrealistic representations of weapon accuracy.
You are completely ignoring OP's point, stating random facts without regard for their relevance. What OP is suggesting, more than widening the cone of fire, is implementing sway related to stance, stamina and suppression. This is realistic and makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. Actually, I'm surprised to read this isn't the case already.
 

Qweets

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 13, 2007
443
221
0
Are you so pro you forgot how to read?

Where did I ever say it was unrealistic? Please read my other post in this thread. I said that for some it might hurt gameplay.

It seems you disagree with me, but have too much of an E-ego to not to defend your case to the death, to someone who isn't even disagreeing with you.

I'm entitled to my opinions.

You have like 500 posts on these forums and the majority of them is complaining about sway... your opinion doesn't mean crap to me. You act like a little child so I refuse to argue with you. No one seems to realize they added in more sway with the last patch after you sprint, people are too busy complaining on here rather than doing what they should be doing, playing and testing.

It seems like people are mad that they are so good at RO2 and they can kill tons of people, shouldn't you LIKE that? Because you guys were raised up on RO1 it allows you to be even better in a more realistic environment? Why would you not enjoy getting kills? Doesn't make any sense. I've personally shot a k98 and a nagant and I didn't sway my arms everywhere like I had damned parkisons disease..

Basically all you crybabies are asking for is giving all players parkisons. Just what we need.... /sarcasm

Also I don't even know what you are refering too by e-ego etc, I don't claim to know everything or anything like that I'm typically a nice person but when stupid crap like this comes up it gets me rather annoyed.
 

Maizel

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 21, 2011
973
372
0
There is often mentioned the sway as well. Even if you are tired and a bit exhausted, your gun isn't swaying randomly. Try it; for safety sake don't run around with your gun at the range but hold your breath a moment then breathe very heavy while trying to shoot. The "sway" is a pretty predictable motion with your breathing. I would not want to see some random sway incrased in game in order to artificially dumb down shooting skills.


You are entitled to your own opinions, but I would like to react on the last point.

There is a stamina bar in the game. When it runs out you noticably start walking slower and your character calls out something like:' I need to stop, I can't go further.'

A stamina bar of 0 would mean near exhaustion to me, that coupled with the screen, I do think you could have a bit of trouble keeping your rifle as steady as it currently is in the game.

Some say it's true that a a full stamina bar is only a 100 feet dash or so. That may be true, but maybe it's the stamina bar that's not realistic (i.e. should be able to run longer with a stamina bar), I REALLY do think that a character who yelled: 'i'm so exhausted' just a second ago, should not be able to hold his rifle a ~100% steady as currently is in the game.


You have like 500 posts on these forums and the majority of them is complaining about sway... your opinion doesn't mean crap to me. You act like a little child so I refuse to argue with you. No one seems to realize they added in more sway with the last patch after you sprint, people are too busy complaining on here rather than doing what they should be doing, playing and testing.

It seems like people are mad that they are so good at RO2 and they can kill tons of people, shouldn't you LIKE that? Because you guys were raised up on RO1 it allows you to be even better in a more realistic environment? Why would you not enjoy getting kills? Doesn't make any sense. I've personally shot a k98 and a nagant and I didn't sway my arms everywhere like I had damned parkisons disease..

Basically all you crybabies are asking for is giving all players parkisons. Just what we need.... /sarcasm

Also I don't even know what you are refering too by e-ego etc, I don't claim to know everything or anything like that I'm typically a nice person but when stupid crap like this comes up it gets me rather annoyed.

As I said, I don't care about reality, I care about fun.

I still think I would have more fun with more sway and slightly less accurate weapons.


U mad?
 
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Qweets

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 13, 2007
443
221
0
The current accuracy (realistic accuracy) of the weapons is what is bringing back all of us RO1 veterans and will bring in a huge new community who will be around another 5 years.

If the op would prefer randomly inaccurized weapons, there are plenty of games out there for that; Call of Duty series, Battlefield etc. But RO was and now still is a realism based game. The weapons we use in game are pretty bang on.

Get some buddies who have some of the guns together sometime if you don't believe it and get out to the range. These guns were as accurate then as now and you would be hard pressed to miss anything at 100 yards with any rifle and 25 yards or so with pistol you should be able to get a couple with every magazine on mark. Closer ranges and all but impossible to miss; which brings up the argument that the PPSH is not accurate enough, which I agree with.

There is often mentioned the sway as well. Even if you are tired and a bit exhausted, your gun isn't swaying randomly. Try it; for safety sake don't run around with your gun at the range but hold your breath a moment then breathe very heavy while trying to shoot. The "sway" is a pretty predictable motion with your breathing. I would not want to see some random sway incrased in game in order to artificially dumb down shooting skills.

SEE this guy understands it, I've shot lots and lots of guns and having some stupid artificial sway is not realistic. Sure there were some scared kids in ww2 who were basically having panic attacks and couldn't aim for crap, but honestly TWI isn't going to model a nerve system come on. They are going to model the guns EXACTLY how they fire in real life. Of course they didn't test these in a combat situation, but if a guy in a combat situation keeps calm he can most definitely fire very accurately.
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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Alright, you chuckleheads:

200 Yard Dime Shoot Attempt Part 1 Mosin Nagant Iron Sights - YouTube
200 Yard Dime Shoot Attempt Part 2 Mosin Nagant Rifle Iron Sights - YouTube

He hits a DIME SIZED TARGET with an authentic MOSIN-NAGANT at 200 YARDS.

You getting that? On a windy day, no less.

Yes, it would be marginally more difficult to shoot if you were breathing heavily, but look at the accuracy of the weapon you're dealing with.

Honestly folks, go out and shoot some real guns before you tell us what is and isn't hard/impossible with the damn things.
 

JoMac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 22, 2011
209
200
0
United States - Va
As it stands the guns in this game are all basically like laser rifles fired by robots in their extreme accuracy and quite frankly it's a little ridiculous. This basically negates the entire machine gun class since every gun is so accurate that if you stop moving to set up and provide covering fire or suppression your head will instantly be popped by any weapon from a distance of 200 yards.

Ideally how the game should work is rifles should sway since they're relatively heavy guns. The most sway happening if a person fires standing straight up with a stamina bar that is not full, or firing while suppressed, the second most sway coming from firing while crouched, and no sway from firing when in cover or prone.

and the SMG should have very little penetration and a good deal of bullet spread so that so that it doesn't act like a heavy machine gun in its killing power.

In b4:

"This is a game, it should be fun, I just want to kill stuff lol"

From a fun factor and game design stand point the game would be more fun with the guns being more inaccurate actually. It would put a bigger emphasis on exchanges of fire, suppression and flanking. all of these requiring team work.

A game that combines the arcadey aim of Call of Duty with the instant hit and die realism of arma is combining the worst aspect of both games and making a terrible experience where people will die all the time with little recourse in a game where death is heavily punished. Also due to the accuracy of all the guns it basically invalidates the entire supression mechanic as firefights are over so quickly that it doesn't even come into play and it basically pigeon holes the machine gun class into running around using the machine gun like an SMG to clear buildings as standing still long enough to even set up is a death sentence.

In b4: "Making the guns more inaccurate will just give the defenders an advantage and everyone will camp all day you stupid noob"

If the suppression system actually did something more than just turning your screen gray, suppressing defenders would actually be the answer to the defender's advantage. If suppression caused weapon sway and perhaps even vision blur it would put the combat emphasis on suppression and teamwork. But as it is suppression just makes popping people's heads a little more monochrome instead of doing anything useful.


In b4:

"I'm an arm chair general/gun nut and all of this is realistic. I can shoot the dick off a fly from 200 yards with every weapon"

No the weapons being able to hit things so accurately is not realistic. The guns maybe that accurate when fired by a robot, or under the very best of conditions, but in practice it is actually very difficult to hit and kill a moving human target, as evidenced by the fact that it takes 250,000 bullets to kill an insurgent even with today's modern weapons.

Source [[URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-forced-to-import-bullets-from-israel-as-troops-use-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-508299.html][/URL]

In world war 2 there were firefights, exchanges of fire, battles lasted for hours with only hundreds of men. The fact is people are not that accurate with weapons in battlefield conditions.

So please make the guns more inaccurate so that we can have a bigger focus on tactics and not twitch. Make suppression actually useful, and make it so that playing the machine gun class is viable, and not just another type of SMG class.

I Concure...I consider myself a 'Harcore Realism' player ( Military Wargamer & Ex-Reenactor ), and can undersand where you are coming from.

IRL a WWII Fire-Fight Skirmish ( with a platoon of troops on both sides ) can last 15 minutes to an hour with either side loosing anywhere from a few casualties up to a squad before taking the objective or falling back.
Any game developer that prides itself in 'Realism' should try and understand that.

In RO2 Beta, its really upsetting to hear people getting 5 out of 5 hits with bolts or consistantly getting a hit with a short burst of SMG fire. Atleast In RO1, most players get on average 0-1 out of 5 hits with a bolt, and 1 hit with SMG using a full clip....Now, thats closer to 'Realism'.
Unfortunately, even RO1 has a high casualty count opposed to RL, but I will still find it more realistic gameplay wise then RO2. RO2 will easily double that already high casualty count, and that's an unfortunate game breaker for me.

As it stands now TWI has added or taken away features that make RO2 less Realistic gameplay wise then RO1...Below is a partial list as to why.
- Movement is faster then RO1
- More Stamina then RO1
- Less Sway then RO1
- Zoom is added RO2
- Recon Planes added in RO2
- Quick Call-in-Arty in RO2 ( also a problem in RO1 )...comes down in seconds instead of couple minutes.
- Rare Weapons in RO2
- Level-Ups in RO2
- etc, etc...snore.

I will continue to play RO1, and wait and see what the RO2 Mod Community does in the future before I decide on taking the next step.
 
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pumpy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 2, 2011
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The solution in my opinion is to not have tiny maps where there is no way to flank or surprise the enemy, maps that aren't easy to learn inside out like counter strike. It would be cool to have big maps where it feels more like a journey where you have a chance of surviving rather than counter strike.
 
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melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
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The problem isn't necessarily the accuracy. To me Ostfront balanced weapons with a few key gameplay elements:

Recoil - Encourages shorter bursts and places more emphasis on hitting the first time rather than holding down and correcting your mistakes on the fly with minor mouse movements. Creates smaller windows of accurate shots so the guns are harder to use well.

Damage - along with recoil, damage encourages you to make careful shots. If you have a weapon with high recoil and low damage you have to make your shots count.

Time it takes to go to Iron Sight - Obviously the faster it is, the less you have to hip shoot and the less you are punished for making mistakes (sprinting everywhere)

Rate of Fire - allows you to make up for mistakes or forces you to make sure your first hit counts

Bullet deviation and bullet dip - Adds another layer of balance to high rate of fire guns and long term depth for long range shots

Sway - You have to constantly fight against the sway in order to place your shot

In RO2 the recoil is vastly reduced from Ostfront with SMG's/semi's
With bleeding, bandaging, suppression and reduced recoil the lower damage of semi's/smg's is less of a balancing factor. You will hit more often and if you miss you impact the other guys aim with suppression, or force them to bandage. If you shoot a guy with semi/smg their ROF and bleeding mechanic allows them to continue firing when they would already be dead in Ostfront. Bullet dip is hardly noticable, as is bullet deviation in semis/smg's.

The SMGs and Semis are just all around either easier to use or more powerful than their Ostfront counterparts, there are more of them and it makes for a game with a lower skill ceiling and higher skill floor. Guns are easier to take and do well with, but the long term appeal is reduced as in a few month's time people will have got bored of them and either use Bolts for the added depth, or use SMG/Semi and feel like they're good while popping off easy shots against weaker foes.

This might seem negative and I need to play more, but the ease of use of the weapons is a fact. Call it realism if you want (while ignoring other unrealistic things like sights always aligned, clear vision, bandaging, suppression moving your gun etc etc), but its a bottom line fact. I do enjoy it though, just not in the same way as I did with Ostfront. I don't see the long term depth
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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And again, for the thousandth time, up until very recently we have been playing on some of the smaller maps and I have no doubt that much larger maps will be released either by the community or TWI that take full advantage of the new, more accurate ballistics.
 

WaffenWulfy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 2, 2011
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I like how Arma handles fatigue and stress. Normally your aim doesn't "sway" in any noticeable amount, but when you've run for a while, been shot at, or been hit, it jumps around in a kind of erratic way and remains that way for a while until you either regain your stamina or your stress lowers to a manageable amount.

As it stands, suppression and stamina don't seem to do a whole lot to impact your aim, and as long as the bullets being fired don't actually HIT you, you're free to spend the extra second needed to aim and kill someone regardless of suppression. RO2 already has a stamina and morale/suppression bar, but it doesn't really seem like they make all that extreme of an impact. If a machine gunner rakes the room where you're standing in with fire, and it doesn't kill you, it should really screw up your aim at the very least. Otherwise, why model suppression at all?

It might be a happy balance that guns should remain relatively stable under good conditions, standing still and unsuppressed, but it should quickly turn terrible once you're getting shot at by any amount of heavy or accurate fire, or been running for a while. I don't think they should "sway", in a stable, predictable manner, it should jerk and twitch and make it quite difficult to maintain a steady shot. When this happens in Arma, it's by no means impossible to make a shot, just much harder, and encourages you to just pull back into cover and let your character chill for a moment. Would certainly help with window snipers being difficult to dislodge from buildings with strong walls like the technical school in Fallen Fighters. But, it could possibly hurt attackers just as much as defenders, so there's no easy fix for the relatively easy aiming yet.

I'm by no means a weapon expert or hardcore realism fan, I just think what works in Arma could possibly help here.
 

J.Corvus

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
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He hits a DIME SIZED TARGET with an authentic MOSIN-NAGANT at 200 YARDS.

Did you watch the video? It shows alot of misses, but no hits!
Anyway you do understand that even that is exceptional accuracy and no way represents average ww2 russian made mosin nagant, right?

I don't think weapons are too accurate in this game. Though I am not sure if they are. But the soldiers shooting the guns are. No need to ever support your weapon. It a realism killer.
 

Tairos

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 3, 2006
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RO1 was like this too. It sucked then. It's only gotten worse, apparently. And we've all had the same tired arguments, such as 'proof' that this state of things is "realistic" because elite rifleman can make impressive trick shots in controlled non combat conditions. Bullet spread would do wonders to produce realistic outcomes in terms of the game's combat, but this is something TW has always refused to do. So, we have machine gunners getting picked out of cover after 3 seconds.
 

El_Ejcovero

FNG / Fresh Meat
Did you watch the video? It shows alot of misses, but no hits!
Anyway you do understand that even that is exceptional accuracy and no way represents average ww2 russian made mosin nagant, right?

I don't think weapons are too accurate in this game. Though I am not sure if they are. But the soldiers shooting the guns are. No need to ever support your weapon. It a realism killer.

Walking men at 200m are far bigger than the targets he was shooting, in other words, they would be dead... The point of the video was that the weapons are not too accurate in RO2, but rather, are realistically depicted. Making weapons inaccurate for balancing/game-play purposes is unrealistic, the only argument I see as valid is the one of adding more sway to the weapons after running being suppressed, or standing up straight with no support, I can see that being more realistic, but it can be overdone, especially considering the men on the field are supposed to be conditioned and trained soldiers.
 
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throumbas

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
93
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People complaining that rifles are too accurate? Sorry but playing RO1 doesnt make you a gun expert, accuracy is just fine for both gameplay and realism viewpoints.
 
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brain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2010
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Alright, you chuckleheads:

200 Yard Dime Shoot Attempt Part 1 Mosin Nagant Iron Sights - YouTube
200 Yard Dime Shoot Attempt Part 2 Mosin Nagant Rifle Iron Sights - YouTube

He hits a DIME SIZED TARGET with an authentic MOSIN-NAGANT at 200 YARDS.

You getting that? On a windy day, no less.

Yes, it would be marginally more difficult to shoot if you were breathing heavily, but look at the accuracy of the weapon you're dealing with.

Honestly folks, go out and shoot some real guns before you tell us what is and isn't hard/impossible with the damn things.

That same guy will tell you that the average Mosin can only expect 3-4moa accuracy, that shooting from a benchrest (with unlimited off-camera attempts) is TOTALLY different from shooting in a combat zone, and that controlling your breathing is very difficult when you're exhausted. I'm also willing to bet that his rifle is accurized (recrowned muzzle, bedding, etc) in addition to him getting a lucky "accurate" Mosin.


Video proves absolutely nothing. If it wasn't totally remarkable/skilled/lucky, it wouldn't be a video on youtube. Most decent shooters can hit a head sized target at 200yards with a Mosin/Kar98, but that is assuming low stress and plenty of time, plus no exhaustion. You should need to be very good at RO2 to hit heads from 200yards when your gun is unsupported.


Anyone who thinks the current system is realistic is out of their goddamn mind, no exceptions.
 

Keith Moons Liver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
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Honestly folks, go out and shoot some real guns before you tell us what is and isn't hard/impossible with the damn things.

the question isn't how accurate the instrument itself is or what some fatso can do sitting in a chair thousands of miles away from harm
if you want to simulate the problem in RO2; go run around getting shot at by nazis for 10 minutes then suddenly stop and within half a second snipe that dime
a little bit harder
mainly i think it should take a little longer to line up shots; especially after sprinting/being suppressed
 
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