Gumrak/tanks = imbalanced?

[EvilAmericanMan]

Another thing...about the ammo supply difference. Its realistic, but how in the hell do you balance that? I don't think you can. If you manage to survive somehow and fire all 19 rounds they need a lot more Russian resupply points than German ones around the map.

 

[Mormegil]

Took about a dozen games until we actually won a single round. Now I can go to sleep (it's 2am).

Of course, they won the first round, and got more points as usual, so they won the match.

Can't wait for TWI to balance this out somehow.

 

[CrazyFingers]

the problem is that people dont know the pros and cons of the tank they are using. I think there should be some kind of graphic representation of the tank you are using ex: armor,firepower,speed,accuracy. I think the same thing should be used for guns, it would help the new players understand more the weapons they are using.

 

[aop]

Seems to be some confusion here. As Rada has said, the current version of the Mark IV is certainly NOT the later G series with the 8cm hull armor (or should not be at least). At the time of the Stalingrad battles, the most common variants of the Mark IV specials were either F/2s or early G models (mostly early Gs though by late 1942). These are in essence the same tank design, just with different names because at some point someone in Germany figured out the F/2 deserved its own mark. The in game one could be either an F/2 or early G, they are identical.

Regardless the Mark IV specials at this point in time should be almost exclusively Mark IVs with 5cm hull and turret plates. The uparmoured G series only went into action around late October/November 1942 in limited numbers until positive combat reports arrived back in Germany and all Mark IVs were ordered to be uparmoured in January 1943. In short, the only Mark IV specials in game should have 5cm frontal armour max. Most stalingrad battles would have happened before the first uparmoured marks entered battle, and the pocket around Stalingrad closed before large scale production was ordered.

8cm hull armour is not at all representative of the Mark IV specials that would have seen service and thus should not be in game. The T-34's should not be having issues from a theoretical armour thickness standpoint, the 76mm gun is on paper at least capable of going through 5cm of armor up to 1km. And in general if tanks are taking multiple hits to the flanks something is wrong.

It's the Panzer IVG and the external model seems to have the additional armor plates visible:
http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/14/13366/panzeriv.jpg

edit: Seems like there's not much spall or other after penetration effects (APHE) modelled since it frequently requires multiple shots to crew compartment to disable the tank.

On paper the 76mm L42 F-34 Soviet gun is on same performance level as the German 5cm L60 so no wonder it struggles with Panzer IVG @ 1km.

 

[wokelly]

It's the Panzer IVG and the external model seems to have the additional armor plates visible:
http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/14/13366/panzeriv.jpghttp://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/14/13366/panzeriv.jpg

edit: Seems like there's not much spall or other after penetration effects (APHE) modelled since it frequently requires multiple shots to crew compartment to disable the tank.

On paper the 76mm L42 F-34 Soviet gun is on same performance level as the German 5cm L60 so no wonder it struggles with Panzer IVG @ 1km.

Yeah the G model with 8cm hull armour is not representative at all of the Mark IV specials in service at this time. If it is a late G model it needs to be changed, both from a balance and historical perspective. Given the Mark III made up the bulk of German armour at this point, it is not fair to have the Germans getting the best and rarest mark of the IVG series.

I agree the T-34s gun is pretty lackluster, still it should be (theoretically) capable of hurting the Mark IV up to 1km though not much above that unless the angle is good (ie lower than 30 degrees). One or two penetrations should do something to a tank, getting a side shot in on the tank should be damn near lethal unless the guy shooting is badly placing his shots.

 

[I Faw Down]

Well, when a bunch of 24.Pz guys and I play Gumrak as the Germans, we always go through the train station (as the public players always seem to go to the other objective, leaving the station completely undefended) and when you turn left on the edge of the Airfield cap zone (which is usually undefended) right after the supply depot, you have a clear shot of the side armor of the T34/76's parked at the top of their spawn ridge.

I'm pretty sure it's mostly the T34's having no idea what they're doing and no teamwork is going on. It's kinda like how in Fallen Fighters, everyone seems to camp on the outside edges, caring more about kills than capping objectives.

 

[Peter.Steele]

Something else worth noting is that there appears to be no spawn protection. Germans can roll right through the Soviet spawn and shoot it up with impunity.

 

[fiftyone]

Something else worth noting is that there appears to be no spawn protection. Germans can roll right through the Soviet spawn and shoot it up with impunity.

Yep! Tis true.

I noticed when the Axis attack from the (West) ???
I've only just started Tanking, so I'm not sure...

 

[Peter.Steele]

Yep! Tis true.

I noticed when the Axis attack from the (West) ???
I've only just started Tanking, so I'm not sure...

The other day I was playing one on one in the TWI tank only server, and the guy quit, left his tank in spawn. I was able to just roll right up on him. AI started shooting at me, but he couldn't shoot for crap. I did a couple laps around him before I got bored and zapped him from about 50 meters away, right in his own spawn.

That ain't so good.

 

[The Beast (nl)]

I have no problems with my loved T34,

See here the proof (the beast (nl)

 

[fiftyone]

I have no problems with my loved T34,

See here the proof (the beast (nl)

LOL, that's because you are a, Beast.

 

[RiccardoTheBeAst]

Most of the time it's just the Allied team loves to sit up on that ridge in the first spawn and long-range duel with the P4's instead of using their superior speed to get down in the cap and flank them. Just a case of people not knowing how to use the tanks yet.

This is not true. T-34 shouldn't need any flanking to kill a Pz IV. The point is that the tanks are super-bugged. Using the T-34 to flank a Pz IV G "early" means not knowing how to use a tank.

EDIT: do not misunderstand, the tanks are really well realized, they're cool, the only problem is the infinite list of bugs.

 

[aop]

Yeah the G model with 8cm hull armour is not representative at all of the Mark IV specials in service at this time. If it is a late G model it needs to be changed, both from a balance and historical perspective. Given the Mark III made up the bulk of German armour at this point, it is not fair to have the Germans getting the best and rarest mark of the IVG series.

I agree the T-34s gun is pretty lackluster, still it should be (theoretically) capable of hurting the Mark IV up to 1km though not much above that unless the angle is good (ie lower than 30 degrees). One or two penetrations should do something to a tank, getting a side shot in on the tank should be damn near lethal unless the guy shooting is badly placing his shots.

Do you have manufacturing dates for "early" PzIVGs and then later ones with 80mm hull front?

Anyways it would be much clearer to use PzIVF/2 than start stripping PzIVG of it's armor (aka replace PzIVG with PzIVF/2).

edit:

ISBN 1841761834

So having uparmored PzIVGs in Stalingrad wasn't impossible.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Of rangers from 300m+, the PIV should have a harder time penetrating the 76.

Quadruple this number and it would be closer to being correct.

For comparison Panzer IVG has 80mm on hull front.

The tank in RO II is an IVF2 or a 50 mm thick front tank.

PzIVG should not have any problems with hull front of T-34/76 Model 1942 even at 1km range.

Of course not. Look here:

1. the gunners forward view hatch is open...2. the drivers forward view slit is also OPEN and cannot be shut...3. there are side view slits for the hull gunner, driver, and loader which leave them exposed to MG fire...4. the Commanders 360 degree view when buttoned up is a hazard to AP and HE rounds, but the commander is very exposed to a PTRS if one were to fire at that area.

Close it/Shut it/Armorglass. If you can't shut it in game or you don't see armorglass then bring it to the attention to the devs. The commanders 360 degree view (Do you mean cupola?) has armorglass as well and can be fully closed by armored shutters. A closed cupola would not be penetrable by PTRS as it is 50 mm thick: (Pic: British examimation of Panzer)

45mm angled at 30 degree is now technically thick as 100mm

Actually, 45 mm angled at 60 degrees is 90 mm and this is the best case scenario/ideal conditions. Things such as the soviets poor armor quality will always lower this number to something less than 90 mm. In fact look here:

People who know a little bit about WWII are dumbfounded as to why their T-34, which they've heard so much about, is being killed constantly from the front by the Germans.

People who know a little bit about WWII would point you to the effectiveness of the stopgap Marders, PAK-40 guns, and long 75 Stug vs the T34.

It's the Panzer IVG and the external model seems to have the additional armor plates visible

That is bad modeling on their part because if it really had additional armor plates it would look like this. Notice the area around the view slit periscopes. In game does the Panzer have this feature?:

In fact could someone please put up a good picture of this same area on the in game tank?

The point is that the tanks are super-bugged.

I tell you its the seemingly lacking AP explosive filler in game.

 

[Mormegil]

The tank in RO II is an IVF2 or a 50 mm thick front tank.

According to the Facts thread, it's a IV Ausf G. Possible they're modeling the IV Ausf G, but the visual is an F2.

 

[The Beast (nl)]

Come on, come on.

Most players doesn`t play this game correct.
I see too much tanks high up a hill and the enemy have a turkey shoot.
Or players go blind to a capzone where expected the enemy will be.
(head to head)

Today i had 2 times a player as driver and they didnt totally listen to me.
They drove blind to the cap place and within 3 minutes we were back to spawn.

I don`t write how i play but one of my trics is to flank.
And i almost play always as russian and i enjoy it.

Played also as german but the panzer 4 tanks are also vulnurable.
I still prefer my beloved T34 as in RO1.

And when you ask me for tankbattle RO1 or RO2 i will answer RO2.

And i want to play as a team but that is impossible with all deaf and blind people.

In RO1 i had sometimes a player with me in a tank. The players were amused with my style.
And they kept stepping in my tank.

Oh 1 point, i must often resupply ammo.

 

[aop]

The tank in RO II is an IVF2 or a 50 mm thick front tank.

Pics released by TWI say Panzer IVG:
http://media.steampowered.com/steam.../a8a6a8499825f5e40108a80bbf60632fe116322d.jpg
http://media.steampowered.com/steam.../fffe0429208040511e3c1d44198e6dbc2dcb08fc.jpg

In those pics it looks like there are two armor plates on top of each other but it may be just really thick welds now that I look it more carefully.

 

[crockett]

Well this is the one area of the game I'm still not certain on with balance. I'm fine with everything else, but I've yet to have any success as a Russian with the T-34's.

I can hop in the Panzer and get a decent amount of kills but I always die in fire on the Russian side. I've also yet to ever see a Allies win on Gumrak with a decent sized server, so I know I'm not the only one having problems as a simple view of kills for any Gumrak match quickly shows a bunch of kills with Panzers & a handful in return from the Russians.

I'm still open to the fact that I'm doing it wrong, but I never go to the ridge and I always try to get to cover, but I get hit in the turret quite often and never seem to be able to finish off the Panzer before he can finish me. I've tried using the 10:30/1:30 deflection as well and never seems to stop me from getting 1 or 2 shot popped by the Panzers. I remember in RO1 it seemed like that used to actually help quite a bit.

 

[Mormegil]

Well this is the one area of the game I'm still not certain on with balance. I'm fine with everything else, but I've yet to have any success as a Russian with the T-34's.

I can hop in the Panzer and get a decent amount of kills but I always die in fire on the Russian side. I've also yet to ever see a Allies win on Gumrak with a decent sized server, so I know I'm not the only one having problems as a simple view of kills for any Gumrak match quickly shows a bunch of kills with Panzers & a handful in return from the Russians.

I'm still open to the fact that I'm doing it wrong, but I never go to the ridge and I always try to get to cover, but I get hit in the turret quite often and never seem to be able to finish off the Panzer before he can finish me. I've tried using the 10:30/1:30 deflection as well and never seems to stop me from getting 1 or 2 shot popped by the Panzers. I remember in RO1 it seemed like that used to actually help quite a bit.

The consensus is the RO1 angling was a bit over done with the T-34. It might help in RO2, but I haven't had a chance to check it out systematically.

There are 4 possibilities for the near constant Soviet loss on Gumrak:

1) Tank damage model isn't final and needs to be balanced.
2) Map is unbalanced, and needs to be rebalanced by moving spawns, changing objective cap size, and/or adjusting reinforcements (not an issue time is extended)
3) All of the above
4) Most Soviet players are idiots, while most Axis players know what they're doing.


I very much doubt #4, as playing either side myself, I notice killing the T-34 with the Panzer IVG is a LOT easier than killing the Panzer IVG with the T-34.

 

[rada660]

Pics released by TWI say Panzer IVG:
http://media.steampowered.com/steam.../a8a6a8499825f5e40108a80bbf60632fe116322d.jpg
http://media.steampowered.com/steam.../fffe0429208040511e3c1d44198e6dbc2dcb08fc.jpg

the problem is being the gun, in those picture its clearly show the 75mm KwK 40 L/43



when the late Ausf G ( and the most used one, in the Ausf G serie, with the 30mm armor welded and all, then later remodeled to be the Ausf H ) got the 75mm KwK 40 L/48



and this picture of an official war history website, prove the gun that the Ausf G used :



This shot shows a Panzer IV ausf G, identified by the type of gun brake, introduced on the G, and the presence of the side vision ports, removed on the next version of the Panzer IV.

Rickard, J (21 July 2008), Panzer IV ausf G

And here from the same website, a Panzer IV ausf F2 that been abandoned, and being towed :



This picture shows a Panzer IV that had been abandoned during the German retreat in North Africa in December 1942. This tank is probably a Panzer IV Ausf F2, the first model of the Panzer IV to be equipped with the long gun. The date of the picture limits the model to either the Ausf F2 or Ausf G, while the style of the muzzle brake and the presence of the vision port to the left of the open turret hatch are most common on the Ausf F2.

Rickard, J (22 July 2008), Panzer IV Ausf F2

SOOOO i still believe TWI named their Panzer IV wrong, unless they change the gun >_> ( for an even better one... )

then for the armor :

"During its production run from May 1942 to June 1943, the Panzer IV Ausf. G went through further modifications, including another armor upgrade. Given that the tank was reaching its viable limit, to avoid a corresponding weight increase, the appliqu