My only problems with tanks have been the fact that I have on multiple occasions driven right behind a P4, shot it multiple times in the rear and....nothing happens. It just keeps on trucking like I'm not even there. While I do like some of the new damage things for this I much more prefer the damage system from RO1 where it was *** shot=dead.
Gumrak/tanks = imbalanced?
- Thread starter Scarf Ace
- Start date
Check the data I provided earlier. While the hull front has sloped armor there isn't that much of it, only 45mm. For comparison Panzer IVG has 80mm on hull front. So they are pretty much equal if the poor quality of Soviet armor isn't taken in to account.
From historical point of view your claims are total bull****. PzIVG should not have any problems with hull front of T-34/76 Model 1942 even at 1km range.
Another point in the Axis favour is that the Panzer has 42 rounds of ammo while the T34 only has 19, not that it really matters coz its usually destroyed long before the 19 are used up.
Well, I actually looked up both in wikapedia mainly to look for physical traits to glom onto in terms of identifying friend from foe...I'm going to look next time I'm in game to see if the models are accurate enough to use the pix I found as guides...this game does force one to learn a little history if they want to play correctly. 
btw, TWI named their panzer IV wrong, its not the Panzer IV Ausf G that is in game, butt he Panzer IV Ausf F2 ( the gun tell it all ) and both gun have different penetration value :S
but to come with the thread, i found tho the T-34 very under-powered compared to its real historical fact and ability... for example :
a T-34/76 do yes have 45mm frontal hull plating, but its slopped at a 30 degree, a straight plating will have 45mm, but angle it from 90 degree to 30 degree, what happen to the same point? the true thickness increase, and 45mm angled at 30 degree is now technically thick as 100mm, and if you note on the stats the PzGr. 39 of the PzIV at 1000m only penetrate 81mm + having its speed reduced from the range, a shell hitting the T-34 would not penetrate and bounce instead, doing no real damage, so why a fight with a panzer IV at long range always lead in... panzer IV win
tho even at close range the sloped armor of the T-34 would be still even more efficient, in fallenFighter earlier today, i got killed 6 time in a row, vs a panzer IV, i killed 3 or 5 of his crew, tracked him, engine down, etc, even shooted many shell at him, ( in those 6 lives ) and he was still able to shoot, and kill me until i kill him, as on 6 time, in 1 shot its was either, dead, hull MG and driver dead, turret ring destroyed, gunner killed, why such poor efficient in T-34 armor, when its was superior and able to bounce a panzer IV shell, at medium-long range.
but to come with the thread, i found tho the T-34 very under-powered compared to its real historical fact and ability... for example :
a T-34/76 do yes have 45mm frontal hull plating, but its slopped at a 30 degree, a straight plating will have 45mm, but angle it from 90 degree to 30 degree, what happen to the same point? the true thickness increase, and 45mm angled at 30 degree is now technically thick as 100mm, and if you note on the stats the PzGr. 39 of the PzIV at 1000m only penetrate 81mm + having its speed reduced from the range, a shell hitting the T-34 would not penetrate and bounce instead, doing no real damage, so why a fight with a panzer IV at long range always lead in... panzer IV win
tho even at close range the sloped armor of the T-34 would be still even more efficient, in fallenFighter earlier today, i got killed 6 time in a row, vs a panzer IV, i killed 3 or 5 of his crew, tracked him, engine down, etc, even shooted many shell at him, ( in those 6 lives ) and he was still able to shoot, and kill me until i kill him, as on 6 time, in 1 shot its was either, dead, hull MG and driver dead, turret ring destroyed, gunner killed, why such poor efficient in T-34 armor, when its was superior and able to bounce a panzer IV shell, at medium-long range.
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I really think it boils to tactics and the amount of tanks actually used in combat, there were far less german tanks than russian tanks, more like an armada of russian tanks.
I do fine with the T-34. I find I generally win if I don't try to engage in a sniping duel with Panzer IVs.
Also, hitting the bottom part of the front plate of the Panzer IV seems to cause it to explode nicely.
Also, hitting the bottom part of the front plate of the Panzer IV seems to cause it to explode nicely.
I had a pretty hilarious moment the other day when I popped around a building and found a bunch of them <100m away. I popped them all in the bottom and got around 5 tank kills inside a minute.
I agree, it would be nice to see a gumrak server that limited the amount of players on the axis side at some fractional ratio in proportion to the allies.
One german tank for every two soviet tanks?
I played a few rounds earlier and it was basically a turkey shoot for the germans, the brave little t34 guys that decided to roll into the airfield were focus fire annihilated while the rest of their team sat up on the ridge trying to hit stuff and missing most of the time lol
Seems to be some confusion here. As Rada has said, the current version of the Mark IV is certainly NOT the later G series with the 8cm hull armor (or should not be at least). At the time of the Stalingrad battles, the most common variants of the Mark IV specials were either F/2s or early G models (mostly early Gs though by late 1942). These are in essence the same tank design, just with different names because at some point someone in Germany figured out the F/2 deserved its own mark. The in game one could be either an F/2 or early G, they are identical.
Regardless the Mark IV specials at this point in time should be almost exclusively Mark IVs with 5cm hull and turret plates. The uparmoured G series only went into action around late October/November 1942 in limited numbers until positive combat reports arrived back in Germany and all Mark IVs were ordered to be uparmoured in January 1943. In short, the only Mark IV specials in game should have 5cm frontal armour max. Most stalingrad battles would have happened before the first uparmoured marks entered battle, and the pocket around Stalingrad closed before large scale production was ordered.
8cm hull armour is not at all representative of the Mark IV specials that would have seen service and thus should not be in game. The T-34's should not be having issues from a theoretical armour thickness standpoint, the 76mm gun is on paper at least capable of going through 5cm of armor up to 1km. And in general if tanks are taking multiple hits to the flanks something is wrong.
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I wish I could chime in on this, but there's almost no servers that run Gumrak in their rotation for whatever reason so I don't know much about this. I have played in a T-34 on fallen heroes, and that map is a joke as far as tanks are concerned, not sure why tanks are in that map. I played about ten minutes on gumrak in a T-34, lost I think and then the map changed. The tanks felt pretty even to me. There was a group of enemy tanks and a group of friendly ones dukeing it out and we had success in taking them out. I think realistically, the PZ IV is the better tank. It has a cannon designed to penetrate the front armor of the T-34 (the 75mm L/43 I believe it is, the L/48 that they had in Ostfront came after Stalingrad I believe?) whereas the T-34 pretty much only had one upgrade to its 76mm model, and that was in like 1940. Now I am pretty sure the T-34 in teh game should be able to penetrate the PZ IV, I just think the PZ IV has an easier time because it has a more powerful cannon. Esp if its actually the L/48 version of the cannon.
And I remember from my Ostfront playing time that the T-34 has a weakspot where its drivers port is. May be able to one shot it if you hit there.
And I remember from my Ostfront playing time that the T-34 has a weakspot where its drivers port is. May be able to one shot it if you hit there.
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I can't even begin to say how horribly incorrect you are.btw, TWI named their panzer IV wrong, its not the Panzer IV Ausf G that is in game, butt he Panzer IV Ausf F2 ( the gun tell it all ) and both gun have different penetration value :S
but to come with the thread, i found tho the T-34 very under-powered compared to its real historical fact and ability... for example :
a T-34/76 do yes have 45mm frontal hull plating, but its slopped at a 30 degree, a straight plating will have 45mm, but angle it from 90 degree to 30 degree, what happen to the same point? the true thickness increase, and 45mm angled at 30 degree is now technically thick as 100mm, and if you note on the stats the PzGr. 39 of the PzIV at 1000m only penetrate 81mm + having its speed reduced from the range, a shell hitting the T-34 would not penetrate and bounce instead, doing no real damage, so why a fight with a panzer IV at long range always lead in... panzer IV win
tho even at close range the sloped armor of the T-34 would be still even more efficient, in fallenFighter earlier today, i got killed 6 time in a row, vs a panzer IV, i killed 3 or 5 of his crew, tracked him, engine down, etc, even shooted many shell at him, ( in those 6 lives ) and he was still able to shoot, and kill me until i kill him, as on 6 time, in 1 shot its was either, dead, hull MG and driver dead, turret ring destroyed, gunner killed, why such poor efficient in T-34 armor, when its was superior and able to bounce a panzer IV shell, at medium-long range.
First off to calculate relative armor thickness we use a simple formula.
Width___
Sin(Angle)
45mm @ 30 degrees is 90mm. That armor is only 90mm when faced at 90 degrees. If your T34 is coming down a hill, good bye sloped armor.
Secondly, all German tank cannons, anti-tank guns and anti-aircraft guns were tested at 30 degrees. The 75mm KwK40 L43 will penetrate 81mm of armor at 30 degrees from 1000 meters. The 75mm PzGr.39 is an APCBC shell, these were specifically designed to penetrate sloped armor. At 1000 meters that shell is going to be coming in at an arc further negating the slope of the armor. The relative armor thickness of the T34 is irrelevant when faced with the PzIV cannon. That 18 pound shell is not going to have any problems punching through 45mm of steel.
If The German tank was the PzIV F with short 75mm cannon or PzIII with the short 50mm cannon or wussy little 37mm cannon it would be a different story. But, it's not. We have the PzIV with a cannon made to deal with the T34.
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Nope it's a G, the early Gs where identical to the "F2" models which in any case where re classed as Ausf Gs when their production run ended, which tells you what the Germans thought of them (i.e. the same vehicle).
The G models was produced from April 1942 to June 1943 (this includes the so called "F2s").
The Extra Armor was introduced in May 1942 but only in limited numbers (8 in may, 16 in june...), in November 1942 it was ordered that half should have the 50+30 plates, and in January 1943 all where to have the extra 30mm plates.
From April to October 1942 the turret vision ports where gradually deleted (the ones on the doors remained).
In June 1942 a rack for spare road wheels was added
September 1942 a new head light was added, the muzzle brake was changed to a double baffle one, the signal ports on the driver and radio operators doors where deleted, and some improvements to the engine starting gear for cold weather.
February to May 1943 smoke candles where added but later discontinued due to problems with small arms setting them off.
March 1943 the signal port on the turret roof was deleted
April the L48 gun was installed, the same month saw the installment of the side skirts as well.
In May 1943 say the addition of a air-filter on the right side mudguard and the movement of the radio antenna to the rear
Their where about 1700 of the Ausf Gs plus some 175-230 of the so called "F2s" made, only about 400 of these where built with the L48 gun.
In June 1942 all Panzer IVs with the KwK 40 where to be known with the designation of 8./ B.W., this was further clarified in July 1942, that all Panzer IVs with the 7.5cm KwK 40 gun should be known as 8./ B.W. vehicles. The 8./ B.W. being the Ausf G series. The 7./ B.W. was the Fs (the the so called F2s where from this group).
Effectively the F2 was another name for the G series of vehicle.
It's called Germany engineering.
It's why (for example) the Germans lost 720 tanks and assault guns during the Battle of Kursk and the Soviets lost 6,064.
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K I played extensively on Gumrak and heres the problem: Nobody knows how to play. The Germans can sit and dominate the T-34s head on at range, which suits the average new player. The T-34 is faster adn needs to shoot and scoot. But how the hell are people supposed to figure this out? People who know a little bit about WWII are dumbfounded as to why their T-34, which they've heard so much about, is being killed constantly from the front by the Germans. Somehow TWI needs to find a way to tell people to try and move as much as possible with the T-34 and to partake in as few head on long range battles with Pz IVs as possible. Now, once you figure out you have to move a lot, its impossible to get quick readings of your environment. Everything just bobbles up and down constantly and your binocs take forever to get to where you want them because of it. Add in the option to not allow human players in your tank apparently not working, and now you have some random idiot moving the turret constantly which FURTHER messes up your attempting to look around you.
I also cant figure out the damage system, I've shot a Pz IV in the side at the engine about ten times and it didn't blow up. I was in a literal knife fight with one at about 2m and it took about six shells to blow it up. The damage system just seems messed up right now. Shooting a PZ IV in the side is almost never a one hit kill (that knife fight I mentioned I shot the PZ IV almost every shell into the side, and him into MY side as well, but I survived somehow and blew him up), and I'm pretty sure I'm shooting where I'm supposed to if I remember Ostfront correctly. And the enemy can fire prayers from long range that hit you, and they do some sort of damage to your tank and you have no way of knowing where the damage came from and why...but now the side of your tank is yellow and creaks when you turn left. The damage model feels like Ostfront when it was first released, remember that the code was messed up somehow. The only thing that feels different is the commander/gunner getting killed every ****ing time the enemy shoots at my turret and having to forfeit my driver until another PZ iv finds me and kills my commander again, then ****s up ten parts of my tank and then I scuttle/get blown up. Rinse and repeat.
This camping thing wasn't as much of a problem in Ostfront since you could sit and camp with every tank save the Pz III and T-34/76 and have success against the PZ IVs/T-34/85s.
I also cant figure out the damage system, I've shot a Pz IV in the side at the engine about ten times and it didn't blow up. I was in a literal knife fight with one at about 2m and it took about six shells to blow it up. The damage system just seems messed up right now. Shooting a PZ IV in the side is almost never a one hit kill (that knife fight I mentioned I shot the PZ IV almost every shell into the side, and him into MY side as well, but I survived somehow and blew him up), and I'm pretty sure I'm shooting where I'm supposed to if I remember Ostfront correctly. And the enemy can fire prayers from long range that hit you, and they do some sort of damage to your tank and you have no way of knowing where the damage came from and why...but now the side of your tank is yellow and creaks when you turn left. The damage model feels like Ostfront when it was first released, remember that the code was messed up somehow. The only thing that feels different is the commander/gunner getting killed every ****ing time the enemy shoots at my turret and having to forfeit my driver until another PZ iv finds me and kills my commander again, then ****s up ten parts of my tank and then I scuttle/get blown up. Rinse and repeat.
This camping thing wasn't as much of a problem in Ostfront since you could sit and camp with every tank save the Pz III and T-34/76 and have success against the PZ IVs/T-34/85s.
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Me too, but it only works if the Germans are clueless.
Yes the tanks at range aren't well balanced. Maybe there is an issue with the damage model. Either way, I think the balancing shouldn't be done for the tanks (unless it's to fix inaccuracies mainly), but by balancing the map / reinforcements.
You can simulate more Russians by having greater Russian reinforcements. That was something nice about Ostfront's reinforcements, which only gave vague numbers by using percentage. If you see 500 Allies / 250 Axis instead of 100% / 100% - it may be perceived as being unfair.
Secondly, I think the German spawn is a bit too close to the Admin Buildings / Objective B. They seem to be able to reach it way faster than the T-34 can reach their corresponding objective. Also, the ruins in the area make for some great cover once they get there. Same can be said for the train station, objective C. Axis can get there faster than Allies can of course, so if they just send 2 tanks there, they can entrench and defend against say 4 Allied tanks (which is what your lucky to get to attack C instead of camping or rushing straight to B).
Maybe getting rid of "spawn hill" will encourage the Allies to stop camping.
I wonder how it would play if Allied Spawn 1 and Spawn 2 were switched. Nobody every spawns in 2, which is the easy way to get to C (station), where it can be entrenched and held like Axis does at Admin Building (objective B).
Another thing to take into account on that map is you can engage people easily from the repair/resupply ammo points. If you sit at one of those points and don't get 1 shotted, you will instantly heal and have an unlimited supply of ammo. They *NEED* to delay the time of which you get ammo and repair on tank maps. It's way too cheap.