Grindhouse Phase 1 Winners

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

...On another note, as for the actual winners, the maps are great but I have some complaints. I feel like there's too many reused Burning Paris assets, particularly in Junkyard and Hostile Grounds. Although on Hostile Grounds the underground sewer area makes up for it, that part of the map is SO GOOD and Swifty is a genius. But the amount of reused assets on KF2 custom maps has been bugging the hell out of me for months.
...

First off, thank you for honestly and politely sharing your opinions, it goes a long way. I wanted to share with you some insight from my experience (using the editor the last 8 months) on why I think a lot of maps have recycled parts and look very similar to one another, including my entry into phase one of grindhouse.

Wall of text incoming

Spoiler!

The new engine plays a large role, if not the largest role in this equation. First of all the engine is a remarkable step up from KF1 that used a modified version of UT2004 editor (I think). Flash forward to now and the editor we are using for KF2 is a modified version of UDK (UE3). Clearly there have been some major changes in that amount of time.

One of the first things that struck me was the level of detail that TWI put into everything. The foundation for a lot of this detail is the textures used. In KF1 they were quite simple, very few options available. Not very many neat little layers that help a texture look 3D, reflective, wet, porous, etc..With KF1 you could find or make a texture and have it looking up to TWI quality in a matter of minutes and uploaded into a level. Now it takes more labor to create textures (they are referred to as materials now) that are on par with the quality of TWI's lineup for KF2. These materials are applied to 3D assets including walls, floors, ceilings and all props and without making custom materials mappers have to get more creative with what's available or spend the time creating them.

The next thing on the list would be 3D assets, or props. KF1 had a much stricter limitation on poly-count, or the level of detail on the screen created by 3D objects, due to engine limitations and to allow low-end PC users fast framerates. KF2 supports much more detail and TWI make use of that in their maps. This means in order to be on the same visual quality level as the official line-up people have to either create/purchase/acquire relatively high quality 3D props and then apply custom materials onto them.

Proficiency with the editor also comes to mind. Certainly there are countless ways in which the KF1 editor and the KF2 editor are similar, there were however, still a great many differences that mappers had to adjust to, myself included.

I think the bottom line is regardless of how you feel about any of the official maps gameplay-wise, they are visually rich and beautiful. This level of quality does NOT simply fall out of a level designers computer overnight. There are many artists assisting with the LD's core vision to create props and materials for the map. A team basically. It is very hard for individual mappers, or even a few people to compete with TWI's standards with this new title.

I hope this clears things up a little bit. I totally understand what you are saying and I think given some time, we will see more creative projects coming out as mappers get more familiar with the new engine as well as the process of creating high quality custom assets.

 

[liamtranzig]

Why is Perk lvling disabled on deadline? Wtf
Can some1 explain to me why?

Deadline is currently unranked, as far as I can tell, because of exploitative player advantages. Since falling off the train means (a very comical) death, players can use weapons with blowback (ie: the Microwave gun) to quickly kill anything.

This goes for many other maps with Dead-drops or hazardous enviroments too.

 

[Winnie The PooSH]

It looked a lot more like an actual police station in the first game, so I do agree on the KF2 version not looking as police-ish. But I loved the hell out of it in KF1, so as long as there's SOME version to play on KF2 then I love it.

If looking from gameplay aspect, then Police Station in KF1 was terrible: too long (and empty) hallways, a lot of dead ends and easy-camping spots. But I must admit that it looked authentic though.

KF2 Police Station took terrible layout from the original and combined it with lazy visuals (simple copy-pasting in 99% without going into details).[/QUOTE]

On another note, as for the actual winners, the maps are great but I have some complaints. I feel like there's too many reused Burning Paris assets, particularly in Junkyard and Hostile Grounds. Although on Hostile Grounds the underground sewer area makes up for it, that part of the map is SO GOOD and Swifty is a genius. But the amount of reused assets on KF2 custom maps has been bugging the hell out of me for months.

Assets are meant to be reused. Making a few new assets to give your map an unique look to is advisable. But creating all/most assets by your own is insane and will lead to one of these scenarios:
a) too primitive assets (your map will look like it's from 1990ies);
b) you'll spend many months of full-time job to make it look as good as vanilla KF2 maps.

IIRC Tripwire said they are spending about 200 dev-days on making one map. 200*8 = 1600 hours. Even if your map will get 1st prize ($5000), then you'll earn 5000/1600 = $3.13 per hour. Selling ice cream can make you earn more...

 

[Winnie The PooSH]

Deadline is currently unranked, as far as I can tell, because of exploitative player advantages. Since falling off the train means (a very comical) death, players can use weapons with blowback (ie: the Microwave gun) to quickly kill anything.

This goes for many other maps with Dead-drops or hazardous enviroments too.

I wouldn't call that exploitable. In Deadline's case, pushing zeds out of the trains it is an unique (and awesome) technique. And that shouldn't be punished imo.

 

[=hellion=]

THE MAPS
All maps must be comprised of only original content created by the Entrant(s), or content already contained in Killing Floor 2 and the Killing Floor 2 Editor. That means that no part of the map, including but not limited to, models, entities, audio files, textures or any other content can be taken, derived or ported

I guess that does not include the 2 ported maps ALA "port" i mean that is actually a counter strike map besides the name being port, and favala? are you serious a call of duty map ??!?!? Do the judges not play games? Deadline looks actually very very similar to an old unreal deathmatch map as well not saying it is because that was long ago and anything from that era probably is not usable anyways but serious people wtf?

 

[Sk1n-Walk3r]

Deadline is currently unranked, as far as I can tell, because of exploitative player advantages. Since falling off the train means (a very comical) death, players can use weapons with blowback (ie: the Microwave gun) to quickly kill anything.

This goes for many other maps with Dead-drops or hazardous enviroments too.

oh men... i really like that map :/

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

I guess that does not include the 2 ported maps ALA "port" i mean that is actually a counter strike map besides the name being port, and favala? are you serious a call of duty map ??!?!? Do the judges not play games? Deadline looks actually very very similar to an old unreal deathmatch map as well not saying it is because that was long ago and anything from that era probably is not usable anyways but serious people wtf?

My understanding of the definition "porting" in regards to what we do here is directly ripping actual files and does not include creating visual similarities using something else as a reference.

 

[Rocker Fox]

I guess that does not include the 2 ported maps ALA "port" i mean that is actually a counter strike map besides the name being port, and favala? are you serious a call of duty map ??!?!? Do the judges not play games? Deadline looks actually very very similar to an old unreal deathmatch map as well not saying it is because that was long ago and anything from that era probably is not usable anyways but serious people wtf?

If it was from source to source i would agree with you since at that point you could just port over 90% of the assests and make a few changes. As it stands it still takes a lot of time in effort to not only make a map that resembles the source map but to also make it playable.

I do know that it's an unreal map and has be remade several times in other games but really, when has it ever showed off in a coop game or killing floor. Actually, scratch that original thought, how much effort do you think it would take to actually make a map that looks like it does (ie moving), is playable and is actually fun to play? About similar effort to someone starting from the ground up with a new idea and even in that case there is a lot of overlap in ideas (ie underground horzine lab/facility).

They probably looked at it and went "well, it looks interesting, works, fits in the universe, and is fun to play so here, have a spot. Oh it was a remake of a unreal map? Oh well, still took effort to create". The point where i would be legitimately mad would be if there were unreal 3 maps ported and that won an award.

 

[liamtranzig]

First, congrats to the winners & every contestant. The competition turned-out a lot of cool custom maps & interesting ideas. I was honestly shocked how quickly the judging was handled & that a winner from Game Banana won again with the same map... but meh there was nothing against that in the rules. What I did find additionally shocking however was the lack of primary judging factors in some winning maps (maybe they were updated & I just have older versions) - but some featured no specialty spawners, no noticable Kismet-function, no doors, etc. - I just assume the Gameplay was somehow overshadowing these other judging factors.

Anyway, I'm glad I too took part & hope to see more stellar maps for Wave 2.

Did the tie for 3rd mean splitting the winnings or did TWI give 2 full-rewards for the tie?

 

[MultiSlayer]

First off, thank you for honestly and politely sharing your opinions, it goes a long way. I wanted to share with you some insight from my experience (using the editor the last 8 months) on why I think a lot of maps have recycled parts and look very similar to one another, including my entry into phase one of grindhouse.

Wall of text incoming

Spoiler!

The new engine plays a large role, if not the largest role in this equation. First of all the engine is a remarkable step up from KF1 that used a modified version of UT2004 editor (I think). Flash forward to now and the editor we are using for KF2 is a modified version of UDK (UE3). Clearly there have been some major changes in that amount of time.

One of the first things that struck me was the level of detail that TWI put into everything. The foundation for a lot of this detail is the textures used. In KF1 they were quite simple, very few options available. Not very many neat little layers that help a texture look 3D, reflective, wet, porous, etc..With KF1 you could find or make a texture and have it looking up to TWI quality in a matter of minutes and uploaded into a level. Now it takes more labor to create textures (they are referred to as materials now) that are on par with the quality of TWI's lineup for KF2. These materials are applied to 3D assets including walls, floors, ceilings and all props and without making custom materials mappers have to get more creative with what's available or spend the time creating them.

The next thing on the list would be 3D assets, or props. KF1 had a much stricter limitation on poly-count, or the level of detail on the screen created by 3D objects, due to engine limitations and to allow low-end PC users fast framerates. KF2 supports much more detail and TWI make use of that in their maps. This means in order to be on the same visual quality level as the official line-up people have to either create/purchase/acquire relatively high quality 3D props and then apply custom materials onto them.

Proficiency with the editor also comes to mind. Certainly there are countless ways in which the KF1 editor and the KF2 editor are similar, there were however, still a great many differences that mappers had to adjust to, myself included.

I think the bottom line is regardless of how you feel about any of the official maps gameplay-wise, they are visually rich and beautiful. This level of quality does NOT simply fall out of a level designers computer overnight. There are many artists assisting with the LD's core vision to create props and materials for the map. A team basically. It is very hard for individual mappers, or even a few people to compete with TWI's standards with this new title.

I hope this clears things up a little bit. I totally understand what you are saying and I think given some time, we will see more creative projects coming out as mappers get more familiar with the new engine as well as the process of creating high quality custom assets.

Huh, good read! I love the map though, it's very consistent. And that sewer tho!

Assets are meant to be reused. Making a few new assets to give your map an unique look to is advisable. But creating all/most assets by your own is insane and will lead to one of these scenarios:
a) too primitive assets (your map will look like it's from 1990ies);
b) you'll spend many months of full-time job to make it look as good as vanilla KF2 maps.

IIRC Tripwire said they are spending about 200 dev-days on making one map. 200*8 = 1600 hours. Even if your map will get 1st prize ($5000), then you'll earn 5000/1600 = $3.13 per hour. Selling ice cream can make you earn more...

Well then, thanks for giving this insight on map design you guys. I've thought about getting into designing maps before, but I dunno it's so hard for me to wrap my head around lol.

Congrats on the win Swifty, cheers!

 

[DirtySpartan]

I don't understand why none of Motormouth's maps won. If you look past the easily solvable issues his maps have, they're quite the pieces of work.

 

[-=}WoLvErInE{=-]

First let me say congrats to all the Winners. But TBH I think if this contest was judged solely by TWI Devs, you would have seen different results. Now I know they will come on here saying they were judged by them, but I've been around here long enough to know better. And when egos get in the way of judging something truthfully, then things like the happen.

Hopefully we'll get some feedback from the Judges, including the none-TWI staff on the loosing maps. It would be helpful for the future to know why some of our maps didn't make it.

Not speaking for anyone else, but I know I didn't loss or not make it for lack of Visuals , layout, game-play...and most importantly FUN. I've gone from server to server, talking to different communities being on different forums. And the word was "FUN Map." All the posts were positive and people just loved playing the 2 maps I made. And the reason for all this....Because they were different from the norm. They weren't the Paris, bio type of maps, that's why people appreciated them. The brought a different taste to the game....oh well I guess that was the wrong thing to do.

So the question now is, why even bother with phase 2 if I already know my faith? From the looks of it some of us don't even stand a chance.

I was told long time ago by many great level designers that left here.....not to stick around, and one way or another i'd get shafted because of some of the people that control these forums, and stupid me I disagreed with them and even lost few friends along the way. But i see in the long run they were all right all along.


Well it was fun while it lasted. TWI thank you for all that you did for me through the years, I really appreciated. Hopefully one day you'll weed out the corrupt and get back to your old days of taking care of the ones that took care of you.


Take care and so long!

 

[Oy The Destroyer]

^TL;DR: My map didn't win the first contest you guys hosted, so I'm giving up forever and calling you corrupt.

 

[Scum82]

^TL;DR: My map didn't win the first contest you guys hosted, so I'm giving up forever and calling you corrupt.

I'm trying not to get involved with the dirty laundry regarding TWI and map contests, but Wolvie made a LOT of maps for Red Orchestra 2 and even got one made official. I think he has spoke with a few folks who were on the receiving end of some unpleasant things.

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

First let me say congrats to all the Winners. But TBH I think if this contest was judged solely by TWI Devs, you would have seen different results. Now I know they will come on here saying they were judged by them, but I've been around here long enough to know better. And when egos get in the way of judging something truthfully, then things like the happen.

Hopefully we'll get some feedback from the Judges, including the none-TWI staff on the loosing maps. It would be helpful for the future to know why some of our maps didn't make it.

Not speaking for anyone else, but I know I didn't loss or not make it for lack of Visuals , layout, game-play...and most importantly FUN. I've gone from server to server, talking to different communities being on different forums. And the word was "FUN Map." All the posts were positive and people just loved playing the 2 maps I made. And the reason for all this....Because they were different from the norm. They weren't the Paris, bio type of maps, that's why people appreciated them. The brought a different taste to the game....oh well I guess that was the wrong thing to do.

So the question now is, why even bother with phase 2 if I already know my faith? From the looks of it some of us don't even stand a chance.

I was told long time ago by many great level designers that left here.....not to stick around, and one way or another i'd get shafted because of some of the people that control these forums, and stupid me I disagreed with them and even lost few friends along the way. But i see in the long run they were all right all along.


Well it was fun while it lasted. TWI thank you for all that you did for me through the years, I really appreciated. Hopefully one day you'll weed out the corrupt and get back to your old days of taking care of the ones that took care of you.


Take care and so long!

So basically you are giving out a false congrats to the winners and saying that if the contest had been judged differently you would have won, while making some meandering accusations that don't really say anything but still imply that the contest was somehow unfair to you.

I tried to download your map again to give another look to see if I could help you with some feedback, but you deleted every link to it in here and on your professional portfolio.

This is the second time you have threatened to leave the community from unfair treatment. Get your act together, man up, and keep working hard. I lost the first Grindhouse contest back with KF1. Didn't even place. It bummed me out big time. But I decided to work harder and keep moving forward because I enjoy level design, I enjoy Killing Floor and for the most part I enjoy the community around it.

You are clearly talented. And I understand what it feels like to put in countless hours and not be rewarded. But don't give up. Giving up won't get you anywhere. Successful people deal with setbacks and failures and keep moving forward. This is your choice.

 

[-=}WoLvErInE{=-]

So basically you are giving out a false congrats to the winners and saying that if the contest had been judged differently you would have won, while making some meandering accusations that don't really say anything but still imply that the contest was somehow unfair to you.

I tried to download your map again to give another look to see if I could help you with some feedback, but you deleted every link to it in here and on your professional portfolio.

This is the second time you have threatened to leave the community from unfair treatment. Get your act together, man up, and keep working hard. I lost the first Grindhouse contest back with KF1. Didn't even place. It bummed me out big time. But I decided to work harder and keep moving forward because I enjoy level design, I enjoy Killing Floor and for the most part I enjoy the community around it.

You are clearly talented. And I understand what it feels like to put in countless hours and not be rewarded. But don't give up. Giving up won't get you anywhere. Successful people deal with setbacks and failures and keep moving forward. This is your choice.

Swift, Let me be clear....I NEVER once said I should've won the contest, NOT ONCE! And yes I did mean the congrats, it's not your fault or any of the other winners. Come on man, you're a talents LD. It's not hard to figure out what's quality and what's not. It's not rocket science. I've lost many contests in my 15+ years of mapping, so this has nothing to do with Winning, but more to do with "FAIRNESS." Look same crap happened with RO2, because of personality difference...real good people got screwed over.

So it's not about getting my act together and as you said MAN UP! Don't worry I was in your shoes years ago saying the same things you are saying to those that said what I'm saying now.....and Look where i'm at now

Congrats on this map and Port taking 3rd place in the contest!! I thought Favela would hit 2nd for sure.

So your statement here was either cocky or confident?


And it's not about threatening believe me, I had left few times, and was asked to come back. But you don't have to worry about that anymore.


But just keep it in mind next time you responds to my post.... 1. I never said It should've been my contest to win. It was about honesty. that's all..and as I said before congrats to you and the rest of the winners, and all that entered the contest. Non-of you had anything to do with the results. It is what it is.

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

Edit: Text removed


I don't want this to overtake the thread of us going back and forth, if you wanna chat about this stuff outside the forum I would be down for that. This public forum might not be an ideal place for it.

 

[-MGS- Sniper]

Although then again, at least it's consistent so it just looks like a different location in Paris. Unlike (no offence MGS, just constructive criticism) the London remake where you got French vehicles and metro signs, guess it's not London anymore! I dunno, I just hope the devs do something with them to make it stand out more once they put these in as official maps.

No offence taken , although please check out the grindhouse edition as this was rectified and paris things removed


In regards to some of the other comments a maps greatness varies from person to person, some are bored with Paris remakes albeit alittle different, some are bored with Ported maps etc.. it really depends from person to person. You always want your own map to win everyone did/does that's why you made it for the comp but that does not mean it will win.


Of course I was bummed out that mine didn't place but that was the judges decision maybe they did not want a remake, maybe it was not as good who knows but that does not mean the comp was unfair.


I personally think there was some great maps out there and winners was deserved of the win and congratulations to all of the top 5, and kudos to all who entered and taking the time to provide some nice fresh maps.


You know what they say...... Its just a game.


I will personally be unlikely making any more maps in the near future BUT that is just because I am moving my attention to my game I am making and not because of the results.


Map because you love it, not to gain...

 

[MultiSlayer]

No offence taken , although please check out the grindhouse edition as this was rectified and paris things removed

Oh sweet! Gonna load that up right now and check it out.

 

[DirtySpartan]

Would be nice to hear some feedback so we could improve our maps for phase 2. Would also be nice to know why the winners are the winners.