Grenades?!

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PilotPirx

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Apr 7, 2006
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In Red Orchestra Ostfront i die to grenades all the time.
:D

YouTube - Bundeswehr Soldat wirft Granate-Und sie kommt zurück


But if serious, then yep, reckless nadespamming in predictable places is annoying and also is gamekiller.
Hope that in ROHOS maps come with more randomness and less predictable situations.

Now if we look at IRL, then there isn't so simple answer.
Here is one pics about german 'sturmgruppe' in summer 1942 in Stalingrad..


germanstormgruppestalin.jpg



And yet one.. Here is text about using grenades in close combat in city (though that wasn't so common, and more for special fighters).
Text is translated, and consequently not very good, but if you know better translator, try it.

During the Second World War employees СМЕРШа (
 
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locogringojc

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Nov 2, 2010
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No matter how many grenades you give them stock there are still ammunition crates all over so people will just camp/return to those for more...
 

Hoak

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Mar 1, 2006
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KingLol said:
Grenades were very powerful weapons and could kill you from distances further than you could throw them, so I would say it's probably acceptable that their lethality is toned down a bit for gameplay purposes.
Then how do you reconcile this?

KingLol said:
Hoak said:
...hand grenades...used in urban settings...could easily kill a friendly squad behind the man throwing the grenade
Not really. While defensive grenades such as the F1 or the Mills Bomb do indeed have a lethal radius equal or greater than the effective range it can be thrown it doesn't mean that they are 100% lethal up to that range.
I qualified my statement, with 'in urban settings', (and twenty years of experience using them). Where masonry buildings, walls, and enclosed spaces -- the boundaries are not substantially destroyed perform as powerful energy reflectors.

By way of example just throwing a grenade in a narrow street or ally, say 2m wide or less the space behaves more like a < Pi/2 steradian domain, then a quarter space domain as the energy of the blast can only go up and in one axis -- the energy multiplying effects on are enormous and can put the blast front well past the Grenadier.

Other problems that present in using real grenades in urban settings that are not well portrayed in games is no one's aim is perfect, there can be unpredictable gusts of wind around the harsh geometry of urban settings, and grenades bounce unpredictably and roll...

The point is in the real world these effects and their consequences make for much more cautious and judicious use of grenades in urban settings then we see in most games, were it's much more of a planned affair, the most capable man is often tasked with the throw, and it's usually done around a corner or over some sort of protective revetment.

I'm just gonna put what I said kinda offtopic in the other grenade thread:

I will add to this that I first posted this idea about 3 years ago when RO first came out...dunno if it's still on the forum somewhere, but I think it's obviously better to pool ammo on a per player basis to make things fair...I think this system would greatly enhance RO...I was playing Stalingrad on TWBs server tonight and it felt like 50% of the deaths were from grenades...not so fun.

I'm guilty of getting easy grenade kills probably like everyone else here, but if we limit them and the mapper can assiagn a set amount on a per player basis - people will be much more cautious before "wasting" them and actually conserve them for those instances where there is dire need to push forward.
+1

I think that's a brilliant idea regardless of how realistic or arcady the damage metrics and load-outs end up being! And in terms of theater realism (if there's some sort of 'realism mode'), there were plenty battles were ammunition and munitions were scarce -- the Russian two bullets, two soldiers one rifle story should be pretty famous by now, and the German logistics train was streatched thin in many areas across the front...

This could even play well as a 'game feature' where running out of ammo adds a tactical means to decisive outcome. Buy way of illustration: one team may decide to go for an all out Blitzkrieg like strike to create a fast round where they quickly and decisively achive their objective, or run out of enough ammunition to accomplish it, alternatively they nurse their ammunition judiciously, hit & run, harass, and try and get the other team to burn it's ammunition reserve, then make the decisive move...

:)
 
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Hoak

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Mar 1, 2006
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This issue has already been discussed in over 9000 other threads, any idea on how to reduce nadespam has probably already been posted in at least one of them
Sure, and on other game forums for other games as well... The thing is no Audience or Developer gets behind any of the ideas that offer a real chance of offering a solution sans nerfing the weapons into carnival toys...

DirtyRat's idea has real value, and could work, so too could making grenades realistically powerful, or even over-powering them a little so haphazard use would backfire. Similarly grenade fuses could be made unreliable, making their use a risky proposition -- all these ideas, and others have veracity in terms of game design and even scaling some aspect of reality into the game to manage the problem...

Fans reinforcing their enthusiasim for ideas they think might work sure can't hurt as it is a real problem and Tripwire have not announed the intention or clever design with respect to grenade use in HOS...

;)
 
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Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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DirtyRat's idea has real value, and could work

Until you actually try it out in practice. If there is global, limited value for the whole team unless you'll make warning written with the letter size of elephants that must be read thoroughly before you can even get past it it's not really going to work, even then it's questionable at best and has notable griefing potential. Pariserplatz custom map for RO is great in many ways, but it requires tankers who absolutely know one thing: limited tanks. Otherwise it can easily end up that before the allies even capture the first 2-3 objectives they're out of tanks, and despite how ludicrous it sounds it can and has happened somewhat frequently.

Limited total grenades per each player would have beter success in the long run.

And in terms of theater realism (if there's some sort of 'realism mode'), there were plenty battles were ammunition and munitions were scarce

Unfortunately unless we can figure out to simulate divisional or corps level logistics with trains, logistical officers etc how we translate logistical effects to the game is very random at best. They often sound good on paper and while they can be modelled to tolerable degree, artificial restrictions that are out of the game's relative scale rarely have positive effects for your average player.
 

Oldih

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Nov 22, 2005
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That's ridiculous, many games limit resources from tickets, to respawns, to ammunition; it's well tested and proven game design that doesn't require giant idiot warnings to work...

Under normal circumstances yes, but unfortunately a common joke that is going on is that people doesn't seem to read manuals at all, let alone configure their settings. Since the conquest archetype has been established many years ago people are familiar with it, S&D is also very established and almost anyone who is even remotedly connected to online gaming certainly knows what it refers to. Certainly it's not nice to presume that people are being braindead, but unfortunately if you consider how often people are unaware E.G. how to switch shell types in RO (just as an example) for tanks or how to even attach the bayonet - despite the fact one would expect that controls would be the first thing you'll check or atleast read the manual how to do certain things - makes it quite twisted issue.

Hoak said:
That I like and think DirtyRat's idea would work obviously doesn't mean it would, but these aren't particularly good arguments for reasons it wouldn't, and there are plenty of good game design examples to suggest it would.

Yes it could, and so could plethora of other ideas. Emphasis on potential works both ways, and while there is also plenty of reasons to support it there is also plenty of reasons to doubt them, and I thought it would be good idea - regardless of the subject - to also find the negative potential issues aswell and balance them all out, especially since we are using the term "could" here quite frequently.
 
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Alexei

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Aug 3, 2006
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Well it's a well documented and corroberated Russian MO, as factual as any from the Eastern Front... What's EATG?
Completely false. And don't use "Enemy At The Gates" as a reliable source for info.
 
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Hoak

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Mar 1, 2006
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Completely false. And don't use "Enemy At The Gates" as a reliable source for info.
It's sophmoric (and considerably off topic) to claim something that's documented is 'compltely false' unless you have something to substantiate the remark, like you were there.

I'm fairly sure Wilsonam can corroberate the two men two bullets logistic; my term on board with Tripwire was brief, but I recall this came up, and there's even documentary film of it in the BBC series The World At War.

I haven't used Enemy At The Gate as a relieable soure of anything, in fact didn't even know about the book untill I looked it up at your mention -- you brought it up as source material not me...

:mad:
 
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Alexei

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the Russian two bullets, two soldiers one rifle story should be pretty famous by now
If it's famous by now it's because that movie and Call of Duty 1 game.
Well it's a well documented and corroberated Russian MO, as factual as any from the Eastern Front... What's EATG?

Hardly can something be well documented when its anecdoctal at best.
If its so well documented give me five reliable sources that state that (1 rifle per 2 soldier).
 
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RedGuardist

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I'm fairly sure Wilsonam can corroberate the two men two bullets logistic; my term on board with Tripwire was brief, but I recall this came up, and there's even documentary film of it in the BBC series The World At War.

Please come up with real sources. This has been brought up from time to time and it
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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but I recall this came up, and there's even documentary film of it in the BBC series The World At War.

Only thing The World at War referred to was the level of eguipment and other things on divisional scale. Even at the end of the war average soviet division was 'poorly' eguipped compared to E.G. british or american, or even german division relatively speaking, but then again same applied for the germans if you compared them to western countries. Even RO historical guide (which you can find on the RO:Ost website to download) has reference to this and does also mention relatively low ammunition stockpiles... at the beginning of Barbarossa when the soviet troops weren't exactly waiting for the attack.
 

KingLol

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Feb 12, 2009
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Thread has gone very off topic.

2 Grenades per man is fine, just as it is in RO. The problem of grenade spam lies in 50 players playing on maps designed for 32 players. Countdown mode and scalable maps should sort this problem.

p.s.
Hoak I'd appreciate it if you stopped 'quoting' stuff I didn't actually say (post #22, 2nd quote)
 
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NoxNoctum

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Jun 15, 2007
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Stalingrad was a nadefest... Russian military doctrine was to grenade every single room in a "suspected" enemy held building (BLIND NADES OH NOES!). I read that sometimes Ruskies even went in with only grenades and shovels (seriously).

I'd like to see them distributed differently though. Like maybe riflemen get 1, snipers and MGers get none, Assault troopers get 3, and elite assault troopers get 4.

The only reason you die all the time to nades on pub servers is because people have been playing this game for years and know all the "hotspots" where people go through and know exactly how to angle the nade so they can blind nade throw and get kills. Yes if you play Danzig with 50 people (not meant for that many) you WILL die very often from grenades.

And ya Kinglol is right, the problem lies with maps like Danzig, Basovka, Krasnyi Oktyabr etc. that don't work with 50 people. On maps that do (Leningrad, Kriegstadt, Berezina, Barashka, Zhitomir, etc.) it's not an issue.
 
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Hoak

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Mar 1, 2006
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Hoak I'd appreciate it if you stopped 'quoting' stuff I didn't actually say (post #22, 2nd quote)
You're quite right, my mistake, it was actually Lemon that said it here, but you chimed with similar straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks, so there's not going to be any apology forthcoming considering your deliberate misquotes and below the basement behavior in the same thread...

Please come up with real sources. This has been brought up from time to time and it
 
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Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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All that would really need to be done is up the punishment for a grenade TK, as the real problem with nade-spam is how carelessly people throw them (like blindly throwing them from the first spawns in Danzig, whilst freindlies are fighting in the target area).
If you can just make players more cautious about TK's, it should tone down the stupid things we see people do with grenades.

It wont entirely remove nadespam, but then, i don't think should be entirely removed, just toned down, and done with more thought to where your mates are.


An easy way of doing this would be to just make nade TK's count for more TK's, which would work, but it might be a bit heavy handed..

Another way would be to restrict the players loadout if they TK'ed with a greande, so next time they spawn they wont get any nades, that's an instant and noticable effect right there (and it can be justified realism wise too, as a simple equipment shortage), and it would make people think twice before they throw, as they woulden't want their next "life" gimped like that, but neither does it punish too severely if some idiot on your team ran blindly into your greande.
 

Snuffeldjuret

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And what about a server option to make TKers skip a spawn wave if they TKed in their previous life? Works really well as it even makes you really want to avoid TKing even if you don't give a **** about the score penalty.
 
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