Grenades?.. There where plenty of grenades in Stalingrad, Assault class in Ro:HOS?
- Thread starter sturmfuhrer
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What makes realistic tactic so unrealistic is mostly that you can throw grenades ridicuously far with perfect accuracy. How long it took to master the danzig pose and being able to jumpthrow nades in the exact specific ninjaspot you wanted, or through that 1x1 window at the very edge of the max throwing distance?
It wouldn't have that much of practical effect, since even when there'd be some reason to slightly conserve grenades if since the single life applies for enemy as well even if the player perceives gambling with nades to take enemy or two down to save his own 'life' it still would resort into being used as primary weapon. Slightly less common perhaps, but still 'spammable' by all means and even for a beter reason. Let's say
I care more about general realism than historical accuracy, so I have no issue with fewer nades in the game even if it is historically incorrect.
If we look at things in a battle contents then limiting Nades to maps is the logical conclusion, Someone said to a limit nades to performance, in a way i'd like to see this, but You start out with 2 nades and then have to earn the rest.
Sigh, this again?
This is the solution to nadespam, if it's a problem at all.
For fragmentation grenades, make the lethal radius what it was in real life - greater than it could be thrown. This will mean players will have to throw them from in cover or else be killed by their own grenade, and they definitely will not be able to throw grenades while sprinting towards enemies without killing themself. Case in point: satchel charges. Players don't throw these things like grenades because of the risk of killing oneself.
For concussion grenades, make the lethal radius drop off sharply so that they are only effective in closed spaces, but still have a blast radius greater than can be thrown so that players will be discouraged to throw them without cover.
This is the solution to nadespam, if it's a problem at all.
For fragmentation grenades, make the lethal radius what it was in real life - greater than it could be thrown. This will mean players will have to throw them from in cover or else be killed by their own grenade, and they definitely will not be able to throw grenades while sprinting towards enemies without killing themself. Case in point: satchel charges. Players don't throw these things like grenades because of the risk of killing oneself.
For concussion grenades, make the lethal radius drop off sharply so that they are only effective in closed spaces, but still have a blast radius greater than can be thrown so that players will be discouraged to throw them without cover.
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Because if people couldent get away with grenading as an assualt weapon, they wouldent do it.
I believe this is atleast partly aleviated with the scaling over distance being fixed, it will now be 2x easier for the shooter to hit that grenadier.
Were grenades also not as accurate or the player was not able to throw them far while running ( think running across a street and pitching it into a window on the way, instead of pitching it a full 30M and landing it in a designated area ) This would be even more aleviated. Add to that my other suggestions from my first post ( grenades roll instead of stick on ground , and randomzied fuzes ). and its likely the grenadier would A miss with his grenade as it rolls past, B kill himself, C Kill both of you, or D miss with his grenade and get gunned down.
In short I could still people using grenades as a primary weapon in ROHOS, but about 95% less often.
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Yep what dwin said.
On some maps in ROOST there is grenade spam and presumably the potential is there in ROHOS. Whether you like it or not, its hard to deny its there when half the players run out of the spawn towards the enemy with a 'nade in hand ready to start chucking them at the earliest opportunity.
I don't believe the solution to this is necessarily limiting the supply of grenades (unless a unit is in a low supply state) but finding ways to encourage the proper use of grenades as Dwin has suggested one way.
Hopefully ROHOS will prove to be different than some maps in ROOST. We must wait and see what TWI comes up with.
no grenades on spawn
no grenades on spawn
Scimmed through the discussion on grenades on my last break and i had an idea; What if you had to actually go and get the grenades from a crate if u wanted them? The crate would hold a set number of nades and spawn slowly like a halftrack. One man could even pick it up and carry it to a prefered position. This way none would have grenades unless they actually botherd to pick them up. so no nade spamming.
Ofcourse one man can ruin everything if he moves all the nades away to some dumb place but that is an issue with everything else as well.
hope there wasnt already a post like this, didnt see one and i check this page at least once a weak to see whats new whit ROhos.
sorry if this wasnt well written and my english sucks hard but i am still at work and i have to pee before my break is over.:IS2:
no grenades on spawn
Scimmed through the discussion on grenades on my last break and i had an idea; What if you had to actually go and get the grenades from a crate if u wanted them? The crate would hold a set number of nades and spawn slowly like a halftrack. One man could even pick it up and carry it to a prefered position. This way none would have grenades unless they actually botherd to pick them up. so no nade spamming.
Ofcourse one man can ruin everything if he moves all the nades away to some dumb place but that is an issue with everything else as well.
hope there wasnt already a post like this, didnt see one and i check this page at least once a weak to see whats new whit ROhos.
sorry if this wasnt well written and my english sucks hard but i am still at work and i have to pee before my break is over.:IS2:
No offence mate, but this is not a good suggestion. There has to be somesort of solution to the problem, but not like this.
I still support the idea of having certain amount of grenades to be used in the combat, just like reinforcements. When they are out, well that
I still support the idea of having certain amount of grenades to be used in the combat, just like reinforcements. When they are out, well that
This I like very much. Doesn't make sense on small maps though.
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I don't get you guys who complain about this tbh. Stalingrad WAS a nadefest.
Many solutions have been suggested for fixing the problem, I've yet to really see any decent ones. But I can't say I can think of a solution myself either. I just know I hate it every time I play a map and find half the classes don't have any grenades. I see the reasoning behind it, but it just turns one unrealistic situation (nade spam) into another unrealistic situation (no nades!). And when faced with two equally unrealistic situations, I always prefer to go with the one that's most fun...
The problems with grenades are many and far reaching, covering grenades, maps, spawns, physics and many more. But one problem that I don't see mentioned is the simple fact that irl, it's a lot easier to react quickly to a grenade and take cover.
Literally hundreds of times in RO, a grenade has landed near by in such a way that irl I could have easily jumped over a wall, through a doorway/window etc to avoid it. In RO, due to latency and well.. a keyboard and mouse interface, I just end up sitting there and staring at it.. because I know I can't escape it.
There really isn't any way to solve this problem, but it is certainly one reason why grenades are so often used as a primary weapon.
The problems with grenades are many and far reaching, covering grenades, maps, spawns, physics and many more. But one problem that I don't see mentioned is the simple fact that irl, it's a lot easier to react quickly to a grenade and take cover.
Literally hundreds of times in RO, a grenade has landed near by in such a way that irl I could have easily jumped over a wall, through a doorway/window etc to avoid it. In RO, due to latency and well.. a keyboard and mouse interface, I just end up sitting there and staring at it.. because I know I can't escape it.
There really isn't any way to solve this problem, but it is certainly one reason why grenades are so often used as a primary weapon.
Correction:
Because we don't think historically accurate loadouts are more important than realism and gameplay.
Sure, grenades were used a lot in Stalingrad, but they were used to clear rooms and take out pillboxes etc. Not in the way you see in RO. That's the point. Also, I doubt 50% of the deaths in Stalingrad were from grenades.
I just want grenade usage in RO2 to be more realistic, that's all. Isn't RO supposed to be more of a thinking man's game, anyway? The grenades in RO:O definitely don't reflect that.
What you said here simply isn't true.
First of all, yes it DOES happen on a a lot of maps, not just Danzig. It's hard to believe that you don't recognize the nadespam in the examples I listed.
Secondly, just because objectives have two or three routes doesn't mean that there are no chokepoints. In fact, most RO:O maps do contain a lot of chokepoints. You HAVE to work yourself through nadespam in order to get to most objectives. You're given no other choice. Play some ArmA II and you'll understand what freedom of movement means. But some Darkest Hour maps also do a great job at reducing the spam because they're bigger than RO:O's.
Thirdly, you still haven't provided the historical proof I (and Lemon) asked for:
Waiting for it.
I just want grenade usage in RO2 to be more realistic, that's all. Isn't RO supposed to be more of a thinking man's game, anyway? The grenades in RO:O definitely don't reflect that.
What you said here simply isn't true.
First of all, yes it DOES happen on a a lot of maps, not just Danzig. It's hard to believe that you don't recognize the nadespam in the examples I listed.
Secondly, just because objectives have two or three routes doesn't mean that there are no chokepoints. In fact, most RO:O maps do contain a lot of chokepoints. You HAVE to work yourself through nadespam in order to get to most objectives. You're given no other choice. Play some ArmA II and you'll understand what freedom of movement means. But some Darkest Hour maps also do a great job at reducing the spam because they're bigger than RO:O's.
Thirdly, you still haven't provided the historical proof I (and Lemon) asked for:
Waiting for it.
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Perhaps we could formulate the general ideas here into a few 'ballance' solutions. Type them out nicely, and deliver them to Yoshiro or one of the other guys for consideration during the beta. Afterall we can sit an argue about it all we want, but running the beta with different grenade ballance levels for a week or two would do infinitely more then all of this talking.
Right well Now I've got something to do this evening.
Right well Now I've got something to do this evening.
No mate they were used to assault and defend positions.
Defenders used heavier frag grenades (thrown shorter distances from cover) and attackers used lighter concussion grenades spammed at the enemy lines during a zerg.
Smoke grenades always make for a great tactic too. drop smoke so that you can get in close enough to throw your lethal grenades in unit strength.
Certainly grenades are used in room clearance too, but that is hardly the only time they were used.
They are a standard infantry weapon.
Choke points in real life can really expect to get filled with nades.
The answer to nade spam as a gameplay issue is not to mess with grenades in any way but to design better maps with less choke points or with choke points in open ground that are more easily controlled by long distance weapons instead of point blank ones.
So you could have a combo of choke points.. in each zone
1= cqb. Grenades, bayonets submachine guns..
The other equals long ranged. Rifles, snipers machine guns...
But mainly, learn to play with grenades. Learn when to throw them, learn how to minimise your exposure to them. Learn when others are going to throw them at you.
Perhaps being able to throw those grenades back if you are quick enough, or being able to dive onto a grenade to save your mates might make them more fun.
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Couple ideas
1. Cone of "fire" for throwing frags, I'm a pretty accurate thrower in real life but I'm not up to snuff with the avatars in ostfront (or any other game). However, we have no idea if this is or is not implemented into hos.
2. On some maps, we could add chicken wire fencing to certain frag prone windows/hidey holes as the germans did in real life. I'm sure this is not going to ever make it into the game, but the idea of having it as a destructible environ would add a gameplay twist as well as a realistic twist (how about modified hook grenades in a mod?)
3. Only allow grenades to be picked up through certain supply locations, those itching to get into the fight probably won't stop to pick up frags which may limit the spam. However the number of frags in these positions would have to be limited on the basis of time periods to prevent defensive frag spam (only 10 frags per minute?). Most dug in positions in stalingrad also had stores of grenades built in somewhere fairly safe.
1. Cone of "fire" for throwing frags, I'm a pretty accurate thrower in real life but I'm not up to snuff with the avatars in ostfront (or any other game). However, we have no idea if this is or is not implemented into hos.
2. On some maps, we could add chicken wire fencing to certain frag prone windows/hidey holes as the germans did in real life. I'm sure this is not going to ever make it into the game, but the idea of having it as a destructible environ would add a gameplay twist as well as a realistic twist (how about modified hook grenades in a mod?)
3. Only allow grenades to be picked up through certain supply locations, those itching to get into the fight probably won't stop to pick up frags which may limit the spam. However the number of frags in these positions would have to be limited on the basis of time periods to prevent defensive frag spam (only 10 frags per minute?). Most dug in positions in stalingrad also had stores of grenades built in somewhere fairly safe.
I think it would be appropriate to have a secondary assault class with a PPsH41 with two extra 30 round mags, and a satchel full of 5-7 grenades. I feel the same way about TW on the supposed grenade spam.
It's Stalingrad, the largest and most brutal urban combat in history. Grenades were cheap and manufactured en masse. To give each player two grenades at most would seem wildly out of place for a battle like Stalingrad.
It's Stalingrad, the largest and most brutal urban combat in history. Grenades were cheap and manufactured en masse. To give each player two grenades at most would seem wildly out of place for a battle like Stalingrad.