Grenades can really spoil the gameplay at times

[Monkwarrior]

Suicidal runs are an issue with lack of fear of death, not grenades. The best way to stop that would be to severely penalise a player's score for every death, not take away grenades.

IMO you'r missing the point.
A suicidal run with a nade is successfull in most of the runs.
A suicidal run with only a weapon is unsuccesfull in most of the cases.
Nades make suicidal runs wort while so taking away most of them will change gameplay.

Monk.

 

[DirtyRat]

Hey Monk, I remember you from the glory days! Finally someone who agrees with me

 

[rossmum]

IMO you'r missing the point.
A suicidal run with a nade is successfull in most of the runs.
A suicidal run with only a weapon is unsuccesfull in most of the cases.
Nades make suicidal runs wort while so taking away most of them will change gameplay.

Monk.

That's exactly the reason you punish them for dying in the first place. If their score is reset or heavily penalised, what difference are one or two kills from a grenade charge going to make?

I get more kills from sitting back with a bolt-action rifle than I do spamming or rushing with grenades anyway. You guys are blowing the issue out of proportion, the entire purpose of grenades is to soften up the enemy before an assault, usually at close range and in tight quarters. That's exactly how they're used ingame...

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

So, you are saying also by this, you would penalize bad players, new players, players with a higher ping, or players with an older slower rig compared to a higher end computer because they are more likely to die? Then what about the players who don't care about their score and still want to just nade spam? With this game, people care less about their score then other generic WWII Shooters.

Opinions are opinions, and to many people, certain maps with too many players are nade fests. Why do you think mappers like Drecks limited the nades on certain maps he made...because he thought it would ruin the gameplay! Other players think like that also!

 

[REZ]

Then you should be addressing the root of your problem, which is 50 player servers running the wrong maps. The reason I say wrong maps is obvious - because you'd need to fix more than the grenade loadout to make these maps playable with all those people. You guys know this. Personally, the gameplay degrades sooo much on 50's that imo they are a detriment to the game itself (people buy the game, say ohhh lookie - 50 players! Then they go there and think that is how the game is played). There are maybe a handful of maps that are large enough to support that many people. Pay close attention to how people play on these '50' player servers - it all degrades to a mob mentality. Should we start a 'bullet spam' thread too? Should we start an 'anti-run and gun' thread because it's annoying and goes against the way you feel the game should be played? Remove 50's if you ask me - not grenades.

 

[Monkwarrior]

Oh come on REZ, you can think better then that
The 50 player servers are fine, mapdesign is what makes some maps nadefests and others not. 50 players on Danzig is totally different then 50 players on Paris Platz. I'm sure both cater for a different audience, I prefer servers with large maps, because suicide naders are less efficient on those maps.

Monk.

 

[rossmum]

Moe, I'd be quite amazed if you found me a so-called 'nade-spammer' (from what some people here classify them as, I'd be one myself, but I mean a true spammer) who didn't do it purely to raise their score.

It's not broken. Don't fix it. If you don't like getting blown up, tough. I'm sure a lot of young Germans and Russians didn't either.

 

[REZ]

There are maybe a handful of maps that are large enough to support that many people.

I did say that, right?


So are you guys complaining about grenades on regular 32 player servers? Just grenades in general (again)? If so, this complaint has been around forever.. conclusion being - you cant dictate how people use their weapons. I really think its about how you approach the game in your own mind. Me? I dont sit around and make myself a target for nades, I find them easy to avoid - especially when you know the 'hotspots' that attract nades. Do you really want to reduce the game down to bullets only? There are soooo many arguments in favor of the current grenade loadouts, you simply need to look back at past threads and read what people have said. The arguments for reducing nades always comes from those who cant stand being killed by a nade!

Nades in no way are an all-powerful, unavoidable weapon they are made out to be. Gameplay suffers because of nade blankets when you're on a 50! But then you also have the running SMG maniacs, the SMG-nowhere-near-a-capzone-camping-some-obscure-corner-hoping-for-easy-kills-not-really-playing-the-game type people.. there are plenty of crappy, gameplay destroying situations that arise when you cram 50 people in maps that werent designed for it. Nades arent the problem.. 50's playing maps that are cramped is the problem. They also seem to attract the lowest common denominator in player skill as well. So maybe there IS something good about them - they're kindof the repository for willy-nilly players.

 

[Monkwarrior]

It's of course all about taste.

W'v all been there: waiting until the last second and zig-zagging in the meantime until our victom has 0% chance of escaping the air-explosion.

I seldom use them and you know why, because it doesn't satisfy me.
It's way too easy to score a kill with a nade.
It gives me no pleasure because it takes so little skill.

For the same reason I don't play anything but bolt rifles.
You have to wait for the right moment and you know you only have 1 chance of killing him. That kind of tension, that's what I play RO for.

When somebody kills me with a nade I shrug, but when somebody outthinks me with a clever boltshot I think: wow, good shot.

So you all keep nading all you want: I still think you'r skill-lless bastards and enjoy bajo fights with the really skilled players

Monk.

 

[DirtyRat]

I know this debate has been around forever, indeed I started one like this about 2 years ago myself, I started it again because with the Nade Limiter mutator I was hoping some admins may take heed and consider that they DO have a choice, they can limit the nades as they choose, by class and by map, and not many admins actually know this mutator exists.

Grenades have certainly got an important role to play in the game, my main argument is that they are too often used, particulalry randomly, or with suicide runs, this isn't realistic, because people would never throw grenades where they feared their own team would be, they would always err on the side of caution.

And for weapon classes who aren't involved in close assaults, it makes no sense for them to have grenades at all, it just gives these players an excuse to randomly throws nades from a distance, or do a quick suicide run before hopefully hunkering down in cover....i doubt their is any army who considers randomly nading an area because they "think" their might be hostiles there a valid tactic, particularly when there is also a high probability their own side could be in the vicinity!

 

[Wiglaf]

Uh, face it. It was common! Why would yuo run in to room when yuo can toss a nade whithout exposing yuor self. How do yuo clear a foxhole whit a rifle platoon against smg troopers.
Whatch any modern documentary about stalingrad. Better yet ask nestor, he is doing some sort of history project about the subject?

If anything their numbers should be increased, not decreased. They essentially metal eggs whit some cheap explosive inside argument that they are expesive is totally ridiculous.

If something has to be fixed it is the performance of the players avatar. Mister super-trooper spits out these eggs whit 100% accuracy out to orbit of earth.

 

[DirtyRat]

Get a spellcheck

No, I agree with you, grenades are used for clearing buildings and areas, but at the moment, the common tactic on some maps is to get your nade out and throw it randomly in the enemies direction in the hope of getting a cheap kill. This can ruin the tactical and realistic gameplay imo

 

[KoKos]

I'm not a history purist or anything.
But what annoys me the most is when you are blown up by a grenade you would have avoided if it was doing any sound when falling on the wood floor you were standing...

Because yes, not only they are overpowered (why not if it's realistic after all), but also completely quiet !!!

For the sake of gameplay (and realism) i hope that in a next patch the grenades will have a readable sound when hitting the ground. Informative enough to think : "**** i have to run"

 

[Wiglaf]

Uh, face it. It was common! Why would yuo run in to room when yuo can toss a nade whithout exposing yuor self. How do yuo clear a foxhole whit a rifle platoon against smg troopers.
Whatch any modern documentary about stalingrad. Better yet ask nestor, he is doing some sort of history project about the subject?

If anything their numbers should be increased, not decreased. They essentially metal eggs whit some cheap explosive inside argument that they are expesive is totally ridiculous.

If something has to be fixed it is the performance of the players avatar. Mister super-trooper spits out these eggs whit 100% accuracy out to orbit of earth.

 

[dogbadger]

I know it aint going to happen in the stock game

I'm talking about using the mutator that Case made...some of the 50 player servers would benefit from it in particular.

...IMO some of the 50 player servers would benefit from being 32 player again, but there you go.
Amoungst other problems I think the high player counts exaggerate the 'raining nades' effect - but as these servers are staying as they are the mutator is a good idea.
I hope MN mappers take a sensible approach to nade counts - and while i'm on i'd personally rather see MN servers running the 32 limit for the most part.

 

[rossmum]

Get a spellcheck

No, I agree with you, grenades are used for clearing buildings and areas, but at the moment, the common tactic on some maps is to get your nade out and throw it randomly in the enemies direction in the hope of getting a cheap kill. This can ruin the tactical and realistic gameplay imo

I don't see what's so unrealistic about people wanting to clear an area the easy way...

 

[Grobut]

The unrealism mainly comes from people who don't think before nading, in the real world grenades are something you are trained to use in certain situations, and you are trained to have respect for them, because if you mess it up you can easilly kill yourself and freindlies with your grenade.

This does not translate well into RO, as many people use them without thinking, putting team mates in danger, and wasting them on stupid kills they could just as easilly have gotten with their rifle.

Grenades should be treated as an asset, a tactical weapon for use against multiple targets, to soften up an area before an assault, or to clear an area that would be too dangerous to take by other means, and above all, you need to considder where your freinds are before you even think about pulling the pin or cord.


But since people know they will respawn with two more very shortly, they don't really put much thought into them, and we see some pretty daft use of 'nades, lots of people just toss them randomly with no regard for who might be within the blast radius, and not to give them or their team an opening or a tactical advantage, but just to get a cheap kill, a kill that often makes no difference at all.

To goal of RO is not to collect kills, it is to capture and hold ground, and people should considder grenades an asset that, if used wisely, can help them advance, or repell an attack, not as a free 1 point to their own personal score.
We dont nessesarily need to see fewer 'nades, we just need to see smarter use of them, but perhabs limiting the 'nades is exactly what it takes to make players use them with some thought and purpose.

 

[LogisticEarth]

people should considder grenades an asset that, if used wisely, can help them advance, or repell an attack, not as a free 1 point to their own personal score.

This is key. If you want people to stop throwing grenades randomly or hastily, then you need to make them value them more, that's what it boils down to.

I know as I got better and better at RO, and as I survive longer and longer per-spawn, I frequently use my grenades before I'm killed. This eventually lead to me NEVER throwing a nade unless it was needed or at least an efficient use, because if I used them up I'd likely run into a situation where I actually NEEDED one.

 

[Skew]

I disagree. Some smaller maps just have too many players on them. I think the amount of grenades is acceptable as it is.

 

[DirtyRat]

It seems Grobut you share my views very closely. Well said btw.