Grenades and their use in-game.

[Lucan946]

In Stalingrad, some of the soldiers in the Red Army were given entire bandoliers of nades and a pistol. They were sent into buildings with lots of individual rooms by themselves, and they would just go room to room, dropping a grenade into each room as they passed by

There's a special class for you. 10 grenades and a pistol

That could be cool, but I don't think it should be widespread. That sounds more like a special occasion improvisation rather than something you'd see all the time. Maybe only 1 or 2 maps could feature this class?

 

[Dwin]

Unrealistically limiting the amount of grenades given to players isn't the solution. Unfortunately, the nature of the game means that people will memorize the best places to throw grenades, and thus throw them in greater quantities than they would in real life. The best solution to grenade spam would simply be to have bigger maps to accommodate the number of players. E.g., playing Danzig with 50 players is obviously a bad idea.

 

[Surely]

Grenade Spam is usually encounter if the Map/Situation allows it or makes it a "good" (=working tactic), this is found more commonly in or close to bottlenecks on a Map.

It is also frequently happening when one Side is clearly dominating and pushing the other side back to the Spawn Area (though thanks to Spawn Protection in RO:OSt, not a problem as with other games). Happens mostly with a Team of defenders being too good, or the attackers not pushing enough, than people start throwing Nades from a safe Area to have a slim chance of any progress.

So basically there is no way to avoid Grenade Spam, but it won't be as bad as in other games, considering there ain't no Ammo Boxes to carry around aka BF:BC2.

 

[Sight]

Like the discussion so far.

It is also possible to give every throw a random factor for throw distance and direction, by this nades can be placed in the right direction, but these memorised "super-throws" when i stand here it will defnitly go through this little window would get reduced.

 

[NoxNoctum]

RedGuardists' idea is easily the best so far. Dude make a thread with a poll with your idea (the special assault class with extra nades and less for everyone else) or I will.

 

[RedGuardist]

Nox, if you see the idea worthwile, be my guest, and fire away the poll!

 

[UsF]

How about limiting grenades with a timer? I believe there were only so many grenades being tossed per minute, so if you die fast and respawn, you shouldn't spawn with the maximum amount of grenades.

For example a rifleman would get his rifle and a grenade every 5 minutes. If you die and respawn before 5 minutes, you will respawn only with a rifle, while the grenade will either be thrown already or lying there on the ground for someone else or yourself to be picked up.
After 5 minutes, you will respawn with a grenade and the dropped one will disappear, as soon as no person is close enough to spot it (25-50 meters?).

Assault classes would respawn with an smg and a 2 grenades plus 2 grenades every 5 minutes. This way, assault classes would still serve their purpose, but not count towards a greater grenade spam through respawning.

 

[Witzig]

How about limiting grenades with a timer? I believe there were only so many grenades being tossed per minute, so if you die fast and respawn, you shouldn't spawn with the maximum amount of grenades.

I like that Idea, it doesn't rob you off Grenades if you play Rifleman but it still limits Grenade useage. and in addition to that people are encouraged to stay alive, there are still Ammo Resupplies for new Grenades (Ammo Resupply is in iirc ?).

I might imagine that it could work with a trigger, which sets in once all Grenades have been thrown (Grenade Ammount of player = 0), change the value of new Grenades the player receives to 0, until Server reaches time X (where x is current time + 5mins), than the Value gets resetted to the Base amount.

Though i'm not an expert on unreal script, its a way it could work. It depends on the details if it is doable, how much it will tax the Server in addition to other complicated Stuff the Server has to handle. And how it is affected by Resupply of Grenades through Ammo Volumes.

Additionally it needs time to get play tested, there might be Maps which will require the Attackers/Defenders to make a costly attack, and limiting the Amount of Grenades Attackers get supplied can easily unbalance a Map.


Even though a Feature might seem/be easy to implement it is still another burden on the Test/QA Team, and i believe they will have enough to do ^^

 

[sturmfuhrer]

Hello all, heres an idea for grenade implementation. How about the allocation of grenades operating via a random integer depending on the class of the soldier one choses. For example a rifleman has the possibility to field one or no grenades, the chance of attaining one greande might be say 50, 40 or 30%. However an smg class has the chance of attaining 1 - 3 with a randomness ratio of 30% for 3, 70% for 2 and 100% for one. A 'Grenadier' class on the otherhand would have the possiblity to be equipt with 2-5 grenades with i.e the chance of having 5 grenades being set at 25%, 4 grenades, 50%, 3 grenades 75 % and 2 grenades 100%.

Classes such as Snipers & other auxillary personel would not have the possibility of being equipt with a grenade or with a very small possiblity of such i.e 10% for one grenade.

In addition each map could have different percentages for all the classes so a map like Stalingrad may have greater ratios for being equipt with a higher amount of greandes than say a more rural open map, focusing more on longer range combat where grenades would have been not as widely distributed.


Does this sound exceptable?

Cheers
Sturm

 

[Extension7]

Random + TW doesn't go.

 

[213]

As previously stated, I had an issue with the use of hand grenades in RO and it seemed some people agreed so I thought this was worth discussing.
I thought as though they were used way to much and instead of using them to clear certain areas tactically they were just lobbed randomly over a fence or a building to score a cheap kill.

So, I was hoping we could discuss the possibilities of a new grenade system.
Maybe most people like it the way it was in RO I don't know.
Lets hear some ideas

Learn from america's army 3. Limit grenade count to 2 max, and Design the maps so random lobbing isn't rewarded with cheap kills.

 

[NoxNoctum]

How about limiting grenades with a timer? I believe there were only so many grenades being tossed per minute, so if you die fast and respawn, you shouldn't spawn with the maximum amount of grenades.

For example a rifleman would get his rifle and a grenade every 5 minutes. If you die and respawn before 5 minutes, you will respawn only with a rifle, while the grenade will either be thrown already or lying there on the ground for someone else or yourself to be picked up.
After 5 minutes, you will respawn with a grenade and the dropped one will disappear, as soon as no person is close enough to spot it (25-50 meters?).

Assault classes would respawn with an smg and a 2 grenades plus 2 grenades every 5 minutes. This way, assault classes would still serve their purpose, but not count towards a greater grenade spam through respawning.

But this doesn't take into account the fact that the respawns are representing a much larger than 64 player force. If, for example, the reinforcements are such that each side can respawn a player 100 times, it's not representing a platoon sized battle (not each player but a player on the team), but a battalion sized battle! (100x64=640 per side)

In other words. Unless that particular map is set late in the battle when the Germans were surrounded after Op. Uranus and having to ration their weapons, ammo, etc. (this wasn't rationing like "you only get 2 meals a day" either, it was something like half of a small piece of bread once a day---I mean there are even reports of cannabalism late in the battle after they ate all the horses) , it would be unrealistic.

 

[UsF]

But this doesn't take into account the fact that the respawns are representing a much larger than 64 player force. If, for example, the reinforcements are such that each side can respawn a player 100 times, it's not representing a platoon sized battle (not each player but a player on the team), but a battalion sized battle! (100x64=640 per side)

I think that this rule would prevent grenade spamming, force people to watch out for their lives, if they value grenades that much and slow down the pace of lobbing those little things all over the place. I guess the price to pay would be not having grenades every time you spawn, if you do spawn often. This might decrease realism a bit, if this is what you mean, yes. I hope I understaood correctly that you mean 64x100 each correctly equipped players.

However ingame usually players do not value their lifes that much, so there have to be gameplay compromises in some areas. If you give every spawning character 2 grenades and someone joins a server on Danzig, just rushing forward, lobbing the two and killing as many before dying quickly, just to throw more grenades again, it is these things that should be prevented. If people live long, they do not notice the difference. The time of 5 minutes was just an idea and maybe a little long, but I still think that the idea in general would fit nicely into the game and prevent fast spawning grenade throwers.

 

[reyalpOR]

Are we making things more complicated again?

Lots of reasons make up grenade spamming:
-Small maps
-Small capzones
-Chokepoints
-Map memorization
-Respawning

I can't see how physically barring players from throwing grenades when they want/need to being any fun at all. And this isn't MW2, grenades are not going to be flying as soon as people spawn. Even on Danzig, it still takes time to run from spawn to objective (aka grenade central), including the time it took to respawn.

I think DH did a pretty good job of distributing the grenades IMO.

 

[Moyako]

-Small capzones
-Chokepoints
-Small maps

These are the main reasons of nade spaming, and in that order. I'm trust TWI will work hard to fix them

-Map memorization
-Respawning

These ones can't be fixed. If the first ones are fixed, memorization and respawning will have a smaller effect

 

[UsF]

Lots of reasons make up grenade spamming:
-Small maps

Problem is that new ones are added to the game, like spawning on your squad leader, so you are right back in the action, no matter how big the map is.

Bigger cap zones would solve the issue too, probably, but they didn't look too big in the videos that have been shown. Also making them too big would probably lead to grenade spam in itself, if people can stand in a cap zone without seeing each other (and therefor not being able to directly fire at each other). Bigger cap zones make it possible for indirect fire to be more effective.

Chokepoints...oh well yea, but that is why they are called choke points in the first place. Also it doesn't matter if you grenade spam them or put MG fire onto them, although if you limit the amount of grenades (respawning new grenades on new waves of soldiers), you limit the explosive capacity of that squad per minute.

 

[mo0nbuggy1]

It's easy to think of games that have nade spamming but try to think of games that do not and then work out why and maybe we can come up with a similar system for HOS.
I instantly thought of Project Reality. Nearly every class spawns with one or more grenade, but nade spamming is never an issue.
It has been said before. Small, narrow maps with choke points are heaven for spamming. Throw nade over building' X' and it will land at 'Y' every time and will most likely get a kill.
Maps in PR are far to large to allow this, battles have their own momentum and player aren't forced into any on particular route for attacking and objective. You never know which building, alley or ditch an enemy might be in and randomly throwing a nade is a waste of a very valuable asset.

 

[NoxNoctum]

Stalingrad was a grenade fest FYI. I remember reading somewhere, think it was Stalingrad by Antony Beevor, that Red Army troops were trained to throw grenades into every single room when attacking a building. Regardless of whether or not they thought that there were germans in there. GRENADE SPAM OMGZ! Let me ask you this... you're a German/Russian soldier in one of the most brutal battles in history... the whole city is destroyed, and your platoon is tasked with attacking a building. If you have the grenades, would you use them in the way I described above? I sure as hell would if my life depended on it. Grenade spam, at least in Stalingrad, is realistic.

Unless someone can provide data that shows that soldiers were not issued many grenades, I think Red Guardist's idea is the best. Plus they've been saying that maps will adapt to be bigger/smaller depending on server size (like they could wall off parts if it's just 32 players). So we won't be having Danzing with 64 players. At least not a Danzig of the same size.

 

[Moyako]

That's not the problem, Nox. Of course the Battle of Stalingrad was a nadefest, as I've seen in documentals. The problem is the balance to keep the game "enjoyable". Many people hates Danzig and Kaukaus because you're forced to follow the few routes available, which are constantly harassed by nades. In real life I could just go behind a hole in a wall, or a window. But that's no possible in ROOST, and is inevitable to make comparisons

 

[zeroethics]

Has anybody taken into account the weapon load out system currently in place? Just raising the point, players will be able to pick up whatever load out they want, including multiple primary weapons, aside from what a player will spawn with.

I think the nade spam issue will be pounded out by larger map size and larger cap zones anyway. However, I think a slight amount of free aim with nades would add a nice randomness to the mix.