Great work killing demo, TWI.

[Yoshiro]

I apologise in advance for banging on about it, but it's really not the damage values that we're arguing the point about.

It's the fact that Demo can On Perk 'nade stun a fleshpound pre-1027, and now he can't. This means that he has largely no practical application towards the very enemy he's meant to be effective against.

The stun aspect of the Demo' On Perk/'nade combination is the centrepoint of all his effective attacks against fleshpounds. Removing it basically kills this perk.

I know what is being argued in this thread (and I don't necessarily disagree with it - demo and support are my two main perks), I just added some information to it as sort of a fun fact. There are ways to use the demo right now and not be useless to a team composition.

 

[Nocturnal7x]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

Does that take into account player count? Demo is a new perk so more people are playing it. This would fudge the dmg numbers if just looking at pure damage per perk across the board.

 

[Yoshiro]

Does that take into account player count? Demo is a new perk so more people are playing it. This would fudge the dmg numbers if just looking at pure damage per perk across the board.

The number I have access to in easy graph able form (normally- system seems down this morning) is average per game over a rolling 72 hours.

 

[64k]

There are ways to use the demo right now and not be useless to a team composition.

Those ways being? Please do back this claim up. And does it scale to HoE?

 

[mxodraco]

I know what is being argued in this thread (and I don't necessarily disagree with it - demo and support are my two main perks), I just added some information to it as sort of a fun fact. There are ways to use the demo right now and not be useless to a team composition.

no class is useless, and while i understand you have to balance for all difficulties, on suicidal and especially hell on earth, having a demo is a wasted slot. trash clearing is not justified by ammo prices and demo is less efficient than pretty much every other class at it. scrakes and bosses are explosive resistant and youre better off with beserker/gunslinger for parry/knockdown, respectively

 

[eckojay]

Would it be possible for the community to see a regular feed of statistics and how the tracker is implemented? I reckon that would put a lot of people at ease and mean that Tripwire would need to do a lot less explaining of it.

 

[2Clicks]

Would it be possible for the community to see a regular feed of statistics and how the tracker is implemented? I reckon that would put rational people at ease, even if most of the player-base will rant and interpret the stats for their own agenda and mean that Tripwire would need to do a lot more explaining of it.

There.... Ive corrected it for you!

 

[64k]

There.... Ive corrected it for you!

Are you implying that Demo nerf was necessary?

 

[sxmn]

for their own agenda

what the **** does that even mean? an agenda to make kf2 a balanced and fun game? sounds horrible!!!

 

[2Clicks]

Are you implying that Demo nerf was necessary?

what the **** does that even mean? an agenda to make kf2 a balanced and fun game? sounds horrible!!!

I was having some fun... you know all I meant was.... how ppl will take any little thing, make it personal and then fire a virtual broadside. You knew, right!??

And all from a little piece of data!

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Can we not derail this for once?

This is about the Demo's utility to a team by way of being able to stun a fleshpound. Currently he cannot do that, despite the fact that the On Perk skill is largely devoted to this very function.

I can't see how this is good for the perk in any way.

 

[Juizer]

There.... Ive corrected it for you!

Are you telling us that "devs know better"? If so, then why did they increased the AA-12 cost to 1700 and then reverted that change?

This is an early access and devs need our feedback to make this game better.

It's just not possible to think about everything, that's why devs should use the community and not rely only on themselves. Unfortunately, it's pretty common among all devs to think that they're always smarter than the community, and that is obviously wrong.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

I just added some information to it as sort of a fun fact.

Just out of curiosity, does the damage information compiled relate only to the Demolitionist perk, or does it relate entirely to explosive damage?

I'm interested because of the sheer volume of damage output by Zed Shrapnel and the Pulverizer, particularly the former. I ask because Zed Shrapnel is classified as explosive damage, and the overwhelming majority of the Pulverizer's damage is explosive also.

Sorry if it's an obvious question, I'm just interested to know if it includes or is separated from other kinds of explosive damage.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Thread Summary:

How could you stolem my stun this form? I want my stun back, its not fear I m live in Burning Paris, your company have very players here I want to stop fleshpound now please help me

Same old kneejerkery that pressures TWI to make rash changes that down the line wind up being detrimental. I seriously doubt this was a straight intentional change. Fleshpounds cannot be stunned in versus mode, and I think TWI altered something to prevent it in THAT mode, but it carried over to standard survival.

You kids calm down.

Are you telling us that "devs know better"? If so, then why did they increased the AA-12 cost to 1700 and then reverted that change?.

Because the community cried about how broken Support was, back when there were only four perks. Support being bad was a RESULT of listening to the community.

 

[jd641]

Can we not derail this for once?

This is about the Demo's utility to a team by way of being able to stun a fleshpound. Currently he cannot do that, despite the fact that the On Perk skill is largely devoted to this very function.

I can't see how this is good for the perk in any way.

This is seriously going to be detrimental to the three man HOE team that me a two other friends do every night. If I can't stun FP's when we're getting double FP spawns it's not going to be good at all.

Has Yoshiro actually answered your question yet? I saw a few of his posts but nothing directly answering the issue of stun.

 

[Yoshiro]

This is seriously going to be detrimental to the three man HOE team that me a two other friends do every night. If I can't stun FP's when we're getting double FP spawns it's not going to be good at all.

Has Yoshiro actually answered your question yet? I saw a few of his posts but nothing directly answering the issue of stun.

To repeat my first post on the topic:

I'm checking into what has happened here in regards to damage and stun.

 

[jd641]

To repeat my first post on the topic:

I'm checking into what has happened here in regards to damage and stun.

It's all good man, there's just a lot of posts and sometimes it's hard to find what I'm looking for.

 

[xmrmeow]

Least used class in top 3 damage dealers. This game favors perks with great utility, and now, demo has none. It is slow and expensive.

Demo is SUPPOSED to be slow and expensive. In this game it should have had just one or two features thrown in to give it something to take down stuff at a close range safely (that's pretty much all it was lacking in the first game; something cheap to kill things early and save up dosh), and the rest kept the same IMO. KF1 demo is far superior in damage output, and it was still balanced. How much damage a perk deals isn't what makes it good or bad, it's what it can kill and when.

Demo in KF1 was very good at killing the FP and everything else it needed to be grouped up otherwise it was wasting ammo and you wouldn't have money for a refill. This game I always have money to fully refill C4 whilst still having extra money to save for an RPG (by the end I have enough to by 2 RPGs for the boss, in addition to full ammo refill), yet it takes a TON of explosives to kill the FP.

I think the changes to demo in kf2 makes it overly good at taking down small zeds (I can always, without fail, spam as many rockets and c4 as I want and not run out of ammo unless the rest of my team is dead or doing nothing), and too weak for taking down big ones. The changes I think would fix both of these:

• Increase damage on RPG to match the damage of the LAW (lv 25 demo with RPG should match lv 6 demo with LAW). If this damage increase causes RPG to be too good vs things demo isn't intended to take down, just give those zeds some explosive resist. All zeds except the scrake and FP should die in 1 hit from a rocket so this should only affect the scrake and bosses.
• Adjust damage falloff curve for RPG accordingly so rockets don't kill everything in a massive radius. Without this, I think it's "kill small zeds" radius would be too big.
• Increase cost of RPG ammo (I wouldn't care if it was like double or more, as long as I can kill what I need to with it)
• Make it so selling and re-buying c4 doesn't refill your entire stock of c4. c4 are 100 a pop, but if you buy it for 650, you get 8. Then if you use those 8 in one round, sell the trigger, and re-buy it, you get another 8 for only 187 instead of 800. This leads c4 to be very expendable.
• Slightly buff c4's damage or remove/lower consecutive explosion resistance to go along with their cost nerf (more cost means they're less expendable, and should only be saved for priority targets).

 

[q3.railgun]

Yoshiro - Thanks for the reply back. As for using damage dealt as an indicator, just as long as other factors are being considered along with total damage (as sxmn mentioned, efficiency).

A COM utilizing 45 shots from his AK to pop 45 trash zed's head over a course of a minute without sacrificing his position will do much less damage than a DEM that fires 2 RPG shots at a group but has to run around and sacrifice his position.

I think with the first steps to counter walling in place (zed knockback), it will be interesting to see if DEM still is able to hold a 1-3 spot.

If the new 75/120/120/120/65 values were used in order to allow LAR+xbow to stun FP with the special hit, then I do recommend looking at changing the fp stun resistance to 75/71/120/120/65 and up the stun power to 59 on the nade in order to have the on-perk value to 76. Keeps the same nade stun property without changing any effect on all the other zeds.

 

[Yoshiro]

Found out what happened and should be addressed in the next update.

A change intended for the Versus mode player Fleshpound got applied to the survival Fleshpound.