Great work killing demo, TWI.

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

I think the main point of frustration amongst the players is that the Demo can't cause the stun affliction at all to a fleshpound.

It seems either very unusual in the sense of unintended, or cruel and unusual in the sense of intended.

I'm hoping for the former.

 

[Juizer]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

If zerk wasn't top 1 almost always then you did something wrong.

 

[Furious Imbecile]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

With or without Nuke is the big question here me thinks?

 

[Yoshiro]

Zerk/demo/gunslinger with some trading places week to week when you average it.

 

[Juizer]

With or without Nuke is the big question here me thinks?

For some reason I think that bleedout damage wasn't counted, and the damage from headpops wasn't properly calculated. So if you killed a clot with medpistol headshot, the system thought that you've only dealt 20 damage.

I can't see any other reasons how zerks wouldn't make it to top1 when I always see them at the first place of scoreboard with like 100 or even 200 kills ahead from top2.

 

[Juizer]

Zerk/demo/gunslinger with some trading places week to week when you average it.

In that case you can't justify demos inability to stun FPs anymore only by these statistics simply because you didn't touch zerk in this patch at all.

 

[64k]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

So, class which is in top3 dmg(i hope to god you arent counting in firebug expl. procs) and is least used. Meaning, this game favors classes with great utility and flexibility into applying damage. Now, that FP stun is removed and rockets still aren't fixed, this makes demo a useless perk.

 

[DrearierSpider]

And what will happen between today and the release of this mysterious overwork? A class being dead weight, only to serve as a nuisance to teammates? Inexcusable. And when will the rework release? 4 months after?

That's why I said I'm not a fan of this change here and now, not sure what your point is.

 

[Gladius]

I'm sure it was changed due to the utility of stuns on the new offperk weapons but they really did miss the what doing that might affect.

The fact that the old values were 60/65/50/65/53 (head/torso/arms/legs/special) to 75/120/120/120/65 sort of shows that they were really just focused on balancing the stun ability based off of the new weapons.

Giving DEM's nade a stun power of 59 (with on perk 76) and changing FP's torso stun resistance to 71 should still mimic what we had before without affecting anything else. This prevents bodyshots from stunning FP with the xbow while still keeping DEM's ability to stun with a nade until the low hp bonus makes the value higher.

This is the first constructive comment I encountered so far. The panic TWI caused with that update is almost funny.

I think 4 xbow shots for a FP is too overpowered. It's sad to see that these years of discussing the balance of the xbow had no influence. Scrubbow here we go again...

TWI won't get the balance right if they keep listening to the loudest voices.

 

[Juizer]

The panic TWI caused with that update is almost funny.

It's not funny to be afraid of your favourite class turning into a trash for a few months. It's not funny at all.

 

[mxodraco]

I think 4 xbow shots for a FP is too overpowered. It's sad to see that these years of discussing the balance of the xbow had no influence. Scrubbow here we go again...

TWI won't get the balance right if they keep listening to the loudest voices.

correct me if im wrong, but killing floor wasnt really about tanky enemies. it was about good teamwork and callouts, where one mistake ruined your team. as of now there is no good way to deal with fleshpounds, and sharpshooter should be rewarded for headshots, especially considering how fast everything bobs and weaves in this game. keep sharpshooter damage and fix demo, but buff fleshpound damage. make the call out more important than artificial difficulty.

Zerk/demo/gunslinger with some trading places week to week when you average it.

thats fair, but its dangerous to look at base numbers and call it a day (which i know you havent). for example, beserker is now a necessary class for tanking bosses and big zeds unlike kf1 due to making ammo more expensive and giving everyone small ammo pools. combine that with great trash clearing ability, and a beserker is a necessity on higher difficulties so thats why the number are so high.

gunslinger has great damage, great mobility, is great against trash (large amounts of ammo, which is great) and big zeds (knockdown, headshot stun)

demo is the best class for trash (which is why its in top 3), but not until level 15, and has no good answer for big zeds. scrakes resist explosions, so youre forced to get close and headshot with a dummy missile with no movement bonus if you mess up. fleshpounds now just run up and shred you because you have nothing to stop their advance. and of course demo is worthless on bosses.

 

[sxmn]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

statistically, demo is always going to look like its the more effective class, the problem with it is that it is horribly inefficient. from wave 1 to wave 10, the other perks always outshine when you look at the bigger picture. a demo may be able to shoot a rocket at a group of 4 clots, and it will count up insane damage, but a commando can simply use four bullets and headshot them all, effectively using less bullets while doing less damage. and in the later waves it is no different: a demo can unload heavy damage into a FP, but a gunslinger can simply magdump into its head and kill it right away (again, doing less damage but being WAY more effective).

this is not a huge problem in itself, because [in the current meta] demo is useful for his stun/stumble/knockdown ability. however the real problem is that demo in the early waves of an HoE game is pure dead weight, since the hx25 and nade launcher are practically useless (yes they do more damage than rifles, but without headshot damage it takes multiple rounds to take down medium zeds). the team is at a severe disadvantage if demo cannot purchase rpg by scrake wave, and must often assist the demo in purchasing it. in the end, its just better for the team if the demo switches to a different perk.

it will be interesting to see how demo's usefulness falls off even more now that zerkwalling is being countered with zed pushback. nuke has always been a great tool for demo to overcome his many many shortcomings, but it is essentially useless when not in a camping scenario.

demo's issues become exacerbated in the harder difficulties. it is amazing how the community meta differs so much from TWI's idea of what is going on in the average kf2 lobby.

some might say not to worry and that the demo rework is on its way, but that's been in the pipe for months, and most of demo's issues have been in the game since it was released. some things could be fixed now just by addressing minor issues like RPG's weight or the hx25's explosion radius, among many many other things. i think we're all hoping that with this new update, you guys will be able to address these things with ease.

 

[q3.railgun]

Damage stats analysis.

Damage stats analysis.

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

Sorry if you've answered this already elsewhere but are you able to go into more detail on how the damage numbers were calculated?

Some major skews could be accounted for by :
- Non-official maps. Perktraining in general, DEM's arsenal does do the most damage per hit and if people are leveling it then we'd see it in the tops.

- Damage types. One thing comes to mind, Nuke and walling. If you're able to filter out damage types, take out toxic and see what it looks like.

- Overkill damage. Does the damage dealt stop at the zed's maximum hp or does it go by what the weapon damage is? Killing a clot with a single shot from AK vs an RPG shot. Does the same thing, stats wise RPG is better but in practice the AK is better. (Maybe this is what you meant by over damage?)

A lot of discussions around the DEM are around the damage but there are threads that go into the utility aspect of the perk instead. This thread is also regarding that utility aspect of being able to be one of the only perks that could stun an FP outside of zedtime. Not only is it no longer a unique property of the perk but at the same time it was removed from them. That's why this thread was born.

 

[Shining Wolf]

Just as a bit of a statistical heads up. Demo has been in the top 3 damage dealers since we got our new analytics system working and fixed up (even after we stopped counting over damage) week to week.

What about damage and takedowns to big zeds?

 

[Yoshiro]

Sorry if you've answered this already elsewhere but are you able to go into more detail on how the damage numbers were calculated?

Some major skews could be accounted for by :
- Non-official maps. Perktraining in general, DEM's arsenal does do the most damage per hit and if people are leveling it then we'd see it in the tops.

- Damage types. One thing comes to mind, Nuke and walling. If you're able to filter out damage types, take out toxic and see what it looks like.

- Overkill damage. Does the damage dealt stop at the zed's maximum hp or does it go by what the weapon damage is? Killing a clot with a single shot from AK vs an RPG shot. Does the same thing, stats wise RPG is better but in practice the AK is better. (Maybe this is what you meant by over damage?)

A lot of discussions around the DEM are around the damage but there are threads that go into the utility aspect of the perk instead. This thread is also regarding that utility aspect of being able to be one of the only perks that could stun an FP outside of zedtime. Not only is it no longer a unique property of the perk but at the same time it was removed from them. That's why this thread was born.

1) We filter those out

2) We are grabbing the right damage type

3) Fixed (originally taken into account in the first pass of the system)

 

[64k]

Least used class in top 3 damage dealers. This game favors perks with great utility, and now, demo has none. It is slow and expensive. For example, Commando is great at flexible damage, it can apply damage at various volumes fast. Demo only has expensive overkill methods. Your statistics of counting only damage hides all the costs of dealing said damage.

 

[Juizer]

...

I think that the main problem with this statistic is that mostly demo was top3 in damage charts because of zerkwalling. When there is only one way for zeds to come from, demo is for sure a beast, especially with nuke.

But outside of zerkwalling demo is just average.

I'm pretty sure if you will look at damage statistics on Evacuation Point, demo won't be even in top 3. I don't know any places where you can zerkwall at this map. Volter Manor and Biotics Lab would be fine too.

1) We filter those out

2) We are grabbing the right damage type

3) Fixed (originally taken into account in the first pass of the system)

Can we take a look at HoE only statistics for the exact maps, especially evacpoint, volter manor, and biolabs?

 

[Yoshiro]

Your statistics of counting only damage hides all the costs of dealing said damage.

No it doesn't. We capture near everything that happens and are using that to inform the rework of the class.

 

[64k]

No it doesn't. We capture near everything that happens and are using that to inform the rework of the class.

Prove it. Show me exactly the properties you are recording. I want to see what you categorize under 'cost'. I am aware only of perks used and damage dealt.
Or is this company secret? :^)

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Zerk/demo/gunslinger with some trading places week to week when you average it.

I apologise in advance for banging on about it, but it's really not the damage values that we're arguing the point about.

It's the fact that Demo can On Perk 'nade stun a fleshpound pre-1027, and now he can't. This means that he has largely no practical application towards the very enemy he's meant to be effective against.

The stun aspect of the Demo' On Perk/'nade combination is the centrepoint of all his effective attacks against fleshpounds. Removing it basically kills this perk.