Granatbusche Modell 39

[Teufel Hund]

I'd really like to see the GrB 39 as an option that can be unlocked for the Germans. They could give it anti-personnel grenades as well as anti-tank grenades, so it would be useful even when no tanks are on the map.

The AT grenade, Gro

 

[Vyllis]

Never seen this weapon in any game.
Why not !

 

[Gaizokubanou]

What would the Allies get to compensate for this?

 

[Teufel Hund]

Never seen this weapon in any game.
Why not !

Rather surprising really. 39,232 PzB 39's were made by November of '41, most of these were converted to GrB 39's beginning in early '42. Each infantry division was supposed to have 81 of them. So they were certainly common enough, and available in the time frame, to warrant including them in the game.
They are more than capable of taking out a T-34, or even a KV-1 if you can hit the right spots.

 

[Teufel Hund]

What would the Allies get to compensate for this?

They already have the PTRS. It may have less penetration, but it has longer range and accuracy. The muzzle velocity of the GrB 39 firing the Gro

 

[Rrralphster]

Rather surprising really. 39,232 PzB 39's were made by November of '41, most of these were converted to GrB 39's beginning in early '42. Each infantry division was supposed to have 81 of them. So they were certainly common enough, and available in the time frame, to warrant including them in the game.
They are more than capable of taking out a T-34, or even a KV-1 if you can hit the right spots.

Supposed to have them yeah. The German army had a lot of trouble refitting it's units.
Out of 162 divisions, only 8 were up to strenght (according to the German High command) when the journey east continued after the '41-'42 winter.

On paper, German units were a lot stronger then in reality.
For instance, artillery units went from 4 to 3 guns per battery.


David Glantz's book(s) about Stalingrad (2009)
Chapter one

 

[Teufel Hund]

Supposed to have them yeah. The German army had a lot of trouble refitting it's units.
Out of 162 divisions, only 8 were up to strenght (according to the German High command) when the journey east continued after the '41-'42 winter.

On paper, German units were a lot stronger then in reality.
For instance, artillery units went from 4 to 3 guns per battery.

True, but there were still enough to warrant including them as an unlockable upgrade. Certainly more historically accurate than including the MKb 42.

 

[Pprkut]

Red Orchestra 2: Wunderwaffe of Stalingrad*

*pre-order now and get your day 1 unlock Panzerklein and cybernetic dog whistle.

 

[Teufel Hund]

Red Orchestra 2: Wunderwaffe of Stalingrad*

*pre-order now and get your day 1 unlock Panzerklein and cybernetic dog whistle.

I certainly wouldn't call the GrB 39 a "wonder weapon". It was a very simple modification of an obsolete AT Rifle which was already in fairly widespread use. More of a stopgap measure until better, and more advanced, infantry AT weapons (ie panzerschreck and panzerfaust) were available.

 

[Pprkut]

I certainly wouldn't call the GrB 39 a "wonder weapon". It was a very simple modification of an obsolete AT Rifle which was already in fairly widespread use. More of a stopgap measure until better, and more advanced, infantry AT weapons (ie panzerschreck and panzerfaust) were available.

Personally, Id like your find. That GrB 39 looks great for me. But I'm don't think it is good find for the game. Same reason why MKb is not.

 

[Vesper11]

I like it and it makes more sense than killing t-34 from 250m with PTRS. But for german army to get a better weapon, soviets too should get something in return (like molotovs for asaults, these could burn down a tank if thrown on engine compartment, what they lack in quality they can make up in quantity). Maybe by the time there will be (I hope) KV in RO2 this weapon would fit better.

p.s. german ptrs could be replaced with pzb 39, as both of them should be ineffective (at wtfraping from the front) against t-34, maybe left as a hero weapon.

 

[VilMik]

Oh yes!
Simpson's Yes guy - YouTube

 

[Teufel Hund]

But for german army to get a better weapon, soviets too should get something in return (like molotovs for asaults, these could burn down a tank if thrown on engine compartment, what they lack in quality they can make up in quantity).

I really don't think that the Russians would need to get anything new to compensate. What I'm proposing is simply giving the Germans their own historically available infantry AT weapon as opposed to using the Russian PTRS. Maybe making the availability of anti-personnel grenades as an option to be unlocked.

Lets look at the pros and cons of each system.

PTRS

Pros:
Range
Accuracy
Semi-auto
Ammo capacity

Cons:
Penetration


GrB 39

Pros:
Penetration
Dual Purpose (with anti-personnel grenades unlocked)

Cons:
Single shot
Slow reload time
Ammo capacity (I'd suggest 6 grenades, with an option to unlock more with the addition of anti-personnel)
Low muzzle velocity
Range (max range was only 90m)


It's certainly not an overpowered or rare weapon. It does have some significant advantages over the PTRS, but these come with some substantial disadvantages. Overall, I think it's a very balanced weapon.

 

[Vesper11]

It's certainly not an overpowered or rare weapon. It does have some significant advantages over the PTRS, but these come with some substantial disadvantages. Overall, I think it's a very balanced weapon.

They could get molotovs instead of frag grenades ^_^ Would be fun anyway.

 

[gimpy117]

the only problem is that the PZB. 39 with the AT grenade would put the germans, who already have a huge edge with the panzer 4, and an even greater edge. Essentially, The Russian would still need to have to run up right next to a panzer to kill it, while the Germans could lob grenades from 90 yards.

now a lend lease bazooka would even some odds...currently doing some digging. says it was quietly introduced in 1942 to the Russians.

 

[Graphic]

Add it, but make the splash damage almost non-existent and keep it off non-tank maps. We don't need noob tubes everywhere.

 

[Justin MacDuro]

I would say no ... Germans should use the Panzerbusche 39 wich is the base model for the Granatebusche 39 , but instead a grenadelauncher rifle is an AT rifle .

No more uberweapons for the german side ... if they add the grenatebusche for germans should add too another weapon for the soviets , for example the mighty Ampulomet wich was largely used in Stalingrad .

the only problem is that the PZB. 39 with the AT grenade would put the germans, who already have a huge edge with the panzer 4, and an even greater edge. Essentially, The Russian would still need to have to run up right next to a panzer to kill it, while the Germans could lob grenades from 90 yards.

now a lend lease bazooka would even some odds...currently doing some digging. says it was quietly introduced in 1942 to the Russians.

Ampulomet is the word !

 

[Teufel Hund]

Add it, but make the splash damage almost non-existent and keep it off non-tank maps. We don't need noob tubes everywhere.

That would be fine for the anti-tank grenades since they're shaped charges with a fairly small warhead. But obviously not for the anti-personnel grenades.

 

[Graphic]

That would be fine for the anti-tank grenades since they're shaped charges with a fairly small warhead. But obviously not for the anti-personnel grenades.

Solution: don't put anti-personnel grenades in the game.

 

[Teufel Hund]

I would say no ... Germans should use the Panzerbusche 39 wich is the base model for the Granatebusche 39 , but instead a grenadelauncher rifle is an AT rifle .

No more uberweapons for the german side ... if they add the grenatebusche for germans should add too another weapon for the soviets , for example the mighty Ampulomet wich was largely used in Stalingrad .

I don't believe they could be carried and operated by a single man very effectively (the tube weighed 26kg, and the ammo was around 1.5kg each). We may as well add the light mortars from both sides at that point. They could be added as fixed weapons in defensive maps for the Russians though.

I really fail to understand why people seem to think the GrB 39 would be overpowered. It was a fairly common weapon available to the Germans in this time period (certainly more so than the MKb 42), and for that reason alone it should be included. I'm fairly certain it was used more often than a captured PTRS.

The Russians were simply behind in infantry anti-tank weapons throughout the war. Should the Germans be unrealistically hampered because of this? The Russians simply need to use different tactics, just like they did in the real world.

For the record, I play both sides about equally. If the Russians had a comparable AT weapon, I'd also be pushing for it to be added. But they didn't. The Russians primarily relied on artillery, air support, other tanks, and teams of two or three AT rifles working together, to take out German tanks. In an urban environment, AT grenades, and improvised explosives (including Molotov cocktails) were also used.

Two or three PTRS firing on a Panzer IV should be able to at least immobilize it fairly quickly. From there it's just a matter of using smoke, and swarming it with infantry equipped with AT grenades and explosives. Just like what was done in the real world. Does it require teamwork, and coordination? Yes it does. But is that really a bad thing?

I'm a big proponent of making the game as realistic as possible. If a weapon was commonly available, then it should be in the game (if it wasn't (ie the MKb 42) then it shouldn't), and it should behave as it did in real life. Be it rifle, tank, or what have you, it should not be artificially balanced against what the other side had. That simply is not the way it was. It should be up to the map designers to make the battle balanced.