Give the engineer some love!

[Victhor-ASH]

This concept is realistic but what is the point for the developer of adding such a complex animation, if it could be much simpler, you see realism from the point of implementing an easy to implement realistic feature, but whats the point of making it complicated with all the useless complications just to make a useful feature look good, many useful features could be added to improve gameplay.

As it was not for the purpose of making them as close to real life as possible, you simply don't have any reason of simulating every animation for placing a sandbag what is the point of it, really would it help in gameplay, no it would just look good, same as the tank interior animation, it looks good realistic but when it comes to gameplay many of those factors prove that are pointless in combat. A game can't simulate reality because it can't represent all the factors of real life combat 100% what is the point of making it look real if the experience isn't really as it would be in real life too many things want to be realistic but forget the main point of realism in order to make it real you have to act it real.

As for the comparation between Mow and RO 2 I was refering to the fact that the animation of building sandbags isn't rendered 100% realistic but it works it also removes the problem of getting shot by spawning at a long distance from the frontline.

 

[ross]

This concept is realistic

No it is not. Soldiers dig in when they are not in combat, when they are in combat they fight, not build fortifications. Anyone who tells you otherwise most probably does not know what they are talking about. When contact is made, you drop whatever you are doing and fight. Only once the enemy has been eliminated or driven off do you go back to digging pits/repairing equipment/eating meals/whatever else you were doing.

but what is the point for the developer of adding such a complex animation, if it could be much simpler

There is no need for any animation because there is no need for an unrealistic, pointless fortification-building system.

you see realism from the point of implementing an easy to implement realistic feature, but whats the point of making it complicated with all the useless complications just to make a useful feature look good, many useful features could be added to improve gameplay.

I see realism from the point of someone who spent three years as an infantry reservist and has been interested in WWII most of their life. I see it from the point of someone who recognises that this is a pointless, unrealistic feature which should never be added to this game.

As for the comparation between Mow and RO 2 I was refering to the fact that the animation of building sandbags isn't rendered 100% realistic but it works it also removes the problem of getting shot by spawning at a long distance from the frontline.

...And I was referring to the fact that building fortifications, even digging a simple shell scrape or filling a few sandbags, is unrealistic when in combat. It is not something that is done in any military, and nor was this the case in WWII. Positions are prepared before combat if possible, not during it. That's why it's called 'preparation'.

Nobody cares about animations because this is not a thing that should even be in the game. Stop dodging that fact by splitting hairs over minute details of something that nobody agrees with in the first place.

 

[Ducky]

Vic, trenches and sandbag walls are defensive constructions to fortify a strategic location. They were build before that location was attacked and never during an ongoing attack. How can someone build such a fortification while bullets are flying around his head? The defenders would run out of engineers very fast. Even so were those fortifications made by the troopers in general and not only by the engineers. A soldier had to dig his own foxhole and he would made sure that the digging was done before the enemy arrived.

 

[Grenator]

To give a little more perspective on why building fortifications is completely alien to this game, here are foxhole digging times according to a (post-war, but it's not rocket science and not any different from what was prescribed in WW2) Soviet fortification manual:

Hole for shooting prone: 25-60 min.
For shooting from a crouched position: 50-150 min.
For shooting from a standing position: 120-250 min.

All figures are per person digging with a small infantry shovel.

 

[Landrik]

It may be a bit spammy, but it's relevant. A tutorial film from WWII "Manner Gegen Panzer" (Men Against Tanks) shows the many ways of taking out tanks. The most relevant ones being the hafthohlladung planted onto the tank or the tellermine being thrown under the tank's tracks.

As Biermann said, it'd make more sense to have tellerminen in a resupply crate much like how panzerfausts are in DH. It doesn't take a skilled engineer to figure out how to throw one of these mines under tank tracks.

I'd like to see a Hafthohlladung fix so you have to plant it and it's not some explode-on-impact throwing toy.

K98k option please?

Flamethrower for elite engineer?

More and better satchel placement options? Nothing says "Surprise!" like a squad of engineers breaching a hole in a wall they made.

Männer gegen Panzer (1943) Men against tanks - YouTube

EDIT: If you're pressed for time, go to 9:00

 

[migmadmarine]

Of the sugjestions I've seen thus far, I agree with yours the most.

 

[ross]

To give a little more perspective on why building fortifications is completely alien to this game, here are foxhole digging times according to a (post-war, but it's not rocket science and not any different from what was prescribed in WW2) Soviet fortification manual:

Hole for shooting prone: 25-60 min.
For shooting from a crouched position: 50-150 min.
For shooting from a standing position: 120-250 min.

All figures are per person digging with a small infantry shovel.

Factor in soil/rock hardness, frozen ground, even permafrost, and then vegetation and root systems. Then remember this is a soldier who has likely been in combat nonstop for at least a few months, probably hasn't seen home in at least six months, maybe a year or more, is getting by on substandard rations (or very little at all depending on nationality and which stage of the battle it is)... there's just no way it's even relevant in an FPS. A strategy game like Men of War? Yes, because your troops are not 'in contact' 100% of the time and often there are no existing trenchworks on the maps. Also worth noting - those values are for single soldiers. Connecting those pits, then turning them into proper trenches - you're looking at working through the night. Reinforcing them with breastworks, logs, bits of debris? A day, more for some of the more complex systems. Something like the trench system on Basovka in RO1 would've taken days to build at the very least. Lyes Krovy would take weeks for the trenches alone, let alone the tunnels.

TWI really let the ball drop on the maps ingame. Pavlov's house, in particular, looks like a stroll in the goddamn park. The original hand-drawn maps put together by the troops that actually defended the place tell a very different story to RO2's rendition.

It may be a bit spammy, but it's relevant. A tutorial film from WWII "Manner Gegen Panzer" (Men Against Tanks) shows the many ways of taking out tanks. The most relevant ones being the hafthohlladung planted onto the tank or the tellermine being thrown under the tank's tracks.

As Biermann said, it'd make more sense to have tellerminen in a resupply crate much like how panzerfausts are in DH. It doesn't take a skilled engineer to figure out how to throw one of these mines under tank tracks.

I'd like to see a Hafthohlladung fix so you have to plant it and it's not some explode-on-impact throwing toy.

K98k option please?

Flamethrower for elite engineer?

More and better satchel placement options? Nothing says "Surprise!" like a squad of engineers breaching a hole in a wall they made.

Männer gegen Panzer (1943) Men against tanks - YouTube

EDIT: If you're pressed for time, go to 9:00

Now these are the kinds of engineer improvements I'd enjoy seeing.

 

[Grenator]

It may be a bit spammy, but it's relevant. A tutorial film from WWII "Manner Gegen Panzer" (Men Against Tanks) shows the many ways of taking out tanks. The most relevant ones being the hafthohlladung planted onto the tank or the tellermine being thrown under the tank's tracks.

As Biermann said, it'd make more sense to have tellerminen in a resupply crate much like how panzerfausts are in DH. It doesn't take a skilled engineer to figure
out how to throw one of these mines under tank tracks.

(snip)

Männer gegen Panzer (1943) Men against tanks - YouTube

EDIT: If you're pressed for time, go to 9:00

Actually, this video (at least the bit around 9:00) proves you wrong: nothing happens to the tank, and nothing would.

These mines are supposed to take out a few tracks and immobilise the tank. Sometimes they were planted with additional TNT charges for greater damage, but their point is to stop the tank and allow the AT weaponry that covers the minefield to kill the tank more conveniently and prevent the enemy from recovering it (an obstacle is always an element in a system. If it stands alone, it fails). That's how mines work, not like high-explosive frisbees.

Not even mentioning the fact that mines are not basic infantry equipment and are not supposed to be lying around. I can imagine their being used like in the movie in desperate situations, but not as normal practice.

 

[Grenator]

TWI really let the ball drop on the maps ingame. Pavlov's house, in particular, looks like a stroll in the goddamn park. The original hand-drawn maps put together by the troops that actually defended the place tell a very different story to RO2's rendition.

Oh, don't get me started on fortifications in RO2 maps. I've already had a rant about MK here and it is probably the best RO2 map in this regard.

Anyhow, the scale of these time figures should be obvious to anyone who's dug a deep and large hole with a shovel at least once in their life.

 

[Trotskygrad]

A strategy game like Men of War? Yes, because your troops are not 'in contact' 100% of the time and often there are no existing trenchworks on the maps.

not to derail but in men of war (Assault Squad) pre-existing trench works are often present (farmland, workshop come to mind)

also soldiers never "dig" trenches (like said before, that would take too long) they simply fill sandbags and build walls, which is presumably faster. (though engineers have the option to deploy barbed wire, tank traps, and mines)

 

[ross]

I know, but on many maps the fortifications are either not enough, not useful, or not present - so being able to build your own is a necessity, especially if your plan depends on holding specific positions or funneling the enemy force through a specific area. Being able to actually dig in would've been pretty much the perfect thing to add to that game, sandbags suck.

 

[Grenator]

If you want a game series as a good example for RO2 in this regard (and many others that concern realism, actually), take Close Combat. You do have engineers there, but they don't build anything: they blow up, use flamethrowers and tend to be a bit heavier on automatic weapons, but don't build. All fortifications and obstacles are preset before the battle, and the only cover you can create during battle are shellholes.

 

[stern]

victor, pretty much everything youve suggested has been disagreed with and disproven as a suitable "upgrade". yet you keep going on, and thus im going to say stuff.

your idea of building fortifications and tank traps while in the realm of an engineer, we have a combat engineer, a ww2 combat engineer. building tank traps even just fallen logs placed to hinder the tank, would take at least a platoon of men with specialist equipment and supply trucks, never mind if you want dragons teeth or Spanish mules. the only way any of your "ideas" can be feasible in game is if you have half your team digging and placing stuff about 3 hours before the game actually starts, and with certain vehicles we dont have.

i can also tell youve never dug a foxhole or filled a sandbag, i have an i can tell you even with 5 guys digging and filling enough sandbags for a small foxhole, your looking at about 2-3 hours to have it complete, now as its game i reckon we can have it at about half an hour for 1 foxhole, yet youd still need all the combat engineers to take part, so not just 1 dude (and all the while youll be susceptible to all sorts of incoming fire). and although your ideas are stupid teh only way they would have any reason be used is in a huge clan war, where both sides get together several hours earlier to build stuff.. which wont even be done, so your ideas are stupid.

 

[Bane5]

I don't know if this has ever been mentioned yet or if there are any predisposed opinions on this already, but what about giving Soviet Engineers body armor as a potential choice?

Spoiler!

The SN-42 as it was known did exist at the time and was issued to elite groups of assault engineers for critical points of a battle that were heavily suppressed. The armor, although somewhat heavy and bulky, was able to protect the wearer’s chest from shrapnel. It could also stop the German 9mm parabellum round fired from the mp-40 at a minimum range of 100 meters.

Spoiler!

In game this means that a rifleman could kill a soviet soldier wearing body armor at any range. Engineers would get immunity to mp-40 rounds taken to the chest fired from 100+ meters away and slightly reduced damage from mp-40 rounds at closer ranges to the chest. Pistols fired at the chest would also have very little effect even at close range. The biggest advantage though is the shrapnel resistance from relatively distant grenade explosions and artillery impacts. The wearer is still far from invulnerable since the arms and legs are still exposed. The trade-off to wearing it would be reduced stamina.

Spoiler!

Unfortunately I don’t know what Germans would get as a counterpart but perhaps the balance could be asymmetric. As far as plausible choices go for both gameplay and realism, I think body armor, flamethrowers, and pole charges are plausible candidates along with giving German Engineers rifles and the Soviet Engineers their carbines.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

victor, pretty much everything youve suggested has been disagreed with and disproven as a suitable "upgrade". yet you keep going on, and thus im going to say stuff.

your idea of building fortifications and tank traps while in the realm of an engineer, we have a combat engineer, a ww2 combat engineer. building tank traps even just fallen logs placed to hinder the tank, would take at least a platoon of men with specialist equipment and supply trucks, never mind if you want dragons teeth or Spanish mules. the only way any of your "ideas" can be feasible in game is if you have half your team digging and placing stuff about 3 hours before the game actually starts, and with certain vehicles we dont have.

i can also tell youve never dug a foxhole or filled a sandbag, i have an i can tell you even with 5 guys digging and filling enough sandbags for a small foxhole, your looking at about 2-3 hours to have it complete, now as its game i reckon we can have it at about half an hour for 1 foxhole, yet youd still need all the combat engineers to take part, so not just 1 dude (and all the while youll be susceptible to all sorts of incoming fire). and although your ideas are stupid teh only way they would have any reason be used is in a huge clan war, where both sides get together several hours earlier to build stuff.. which wont even be done, so your ideas are stupid.

Yes but like I said this is a game you dont have to add realistic time of construction, but I hate the ideea of the enginner beeing like a bomberman not having anything else useful to use beside explosives. Indeed armor could be the ideeal candidate. A more constructive role would suit better the engineer you dont really need to add realistic building time especially for a gamemod like Countdown were deffense is the most gamechanging thing in a battle.

 

[ross]

Forget whether the realistic time frame needs to be in the game, you've yet to provide any decent reasons construction should be in the game.

Probably because there aren't any, but oh well.

 

[Victhor-ASH]

Ross as you can see Countdown isn't the most played mod, a much more deffensive role for this game would be appreciated and I hope that players would feel this need for a change to make the game mod much more popular at the moment it is one of the most unbalanced mods, such a deffensive purpose for the engineer would be greatful on defensive role, also my hopes are to make the mod much pleasant to play because it is pretty dull how it is now.

 

[ross]

It still doesn't make sense, because Countdown still assumes contact.

There is literally no context where constructing fortifications even makes sense in RO2, let alone belongs in it. That's not just from a realism standpoint, that's from a gameplay standpoint. Keep that stuff for RTS and tower defence games, thanks.

PS: nobody plays countdown because they're impatient and don't like waiting for their one remaining teammate to die. Adding this will not magically make people more patient.

 

[Rrralphster]

Integration of engineers (Saperi) in Russian "stormgroups" is basic knowledge.
Plus the fact that lines were just 30 meters apart (a grenade's throw distance) indicates that Russian engineers did build fortifications under fire.

They are also the third group in the Russian stormgroup doctrine.
First the 6-8 attackers (grenades, SMG's, etc.) Then the group of reinforcements (of the first group) came in. Third group was the Saperi group which imediately started working on fortifications, minefields (just serveral mines on each approach) barrikades etc. etc.
Then finally the group that occupies the position came in.

 

[Kleist]

My ideas for better engineers:

# destroyable objects with tactical background
# selectable explosion time when using a satchel (3s, 4s or 5s for example)
# map targets like: destroy the objekt X (red oct. fact.) or you have to destroy a door or wall because without that your team isn