Germans had LESS MP40s

[Jorg Biermann1]

There should be like two MP40's per Gruppe then the commander should get one.

SO with 30 players there should be around 7 MP40s. If you give the Engineer a Rifle instead of an MP40 that would be good too. Who made this thing that makes game devs think thats all engineers had SMGs? The Engineers are just normal soldiers from Pionier Bataillons.

 

[greenlemonade]

Perhaps Tripwire could use this in levels that need balance.
Any levels that seem to favor the Germans, they could balance by reducing the Assault classes. I realize that any change like this won't go widespread when they would have to play test it for balance and release is TOMORROW.

But if they are already balancing the level, why not?

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

Any levels that favour the Germans that I've played seems to usually end up with me getting killed by a rifle at medium to long range, SMGs are the least of my worries!

So yeah, I don't see any need to reduce the SMG count on Axis side.

 

[PETERPANs]

I am against it, idea is wrong in terms of accuracy. Before battle of stalingrad in summer 1942, whole soviet armies, divisions were destroyed or captured. Soviet equipment cassulties were mega-colosal in comparison to german casualties. They captured thousands of guns, from firearms to heavy cannons. It is not wise to compare the production of PPSH with MP 40. If you did you dont understand history before summer 1942 in russia.

 

[Oldih]

Keep in mind the size of both nation's armies. During the course of the war Soviet army employed 5 to 6 times the amount of men the German army did, so it would need those extra PPSH's to reach the same percentage of men armed with an SMG.

I think the main reasoning for the thought is that if we look purely at TO&E listing and standard issue your average soviet rifle squad had more SMGs than average german rifle squad past early '42, but it's bit odd point to consider there's extremely loose sense of "squad" and "platoon" in RO to begin with, as it also varies between different kind of units to begin with, say j

 

[Jesteri]

If germans will have less MP40

 

[wokelly]

A lot of this discussion is irreverent guys, equipment ratios are dependent on what units we are simulating being involved. You standard infantry squad at the time period for the Germans and Russians basically had similar number of SMGs and LMGs, with the Soviets having a STV in there where as the German one probably did not have a G41 (since production was pretty small). You throw in a Panzer Grenadier units have more MG34s than a standard infantry squad and proably an extra SMG or two. You throw in a Russia assault unit, you get lots of PPSH's. Russian tank riding infantry tended to have lots of SMGs as well.

Reading Glantz's books on Stalingrad, it seems the Germans often led their attacks with an SMG company of sorts, or at least the Russians always describe the inital attackers as being armed heavily with SMGs. Follow up waves had your more standard loadouts.

There is a lot of variation, none of it is especially right or wrong. Custom maps are all based on what flavor people want, I think it would be cool to have a battle between a standard German squad and a Russian tank support team with PPSH's.

The only thing "wrong" with loadouts is G41 numbers IMO, probably should not be so many available as there are now. We definentally need more bolt action rifles.

As a regular template, it probably makes sense to give both sides (64 player):

3 Squad leaders (SMG only)
3 LMGs
3 Assault class (SMG only)
2 Elite riflemen (Semi Rifle or special unlock)
21 Rifles.

More "historically flavored"

German (tended to have more MGs available)

3 Squad leaders (SMG only)
4 LMGs
2 Assault class (SMG)
1 Semi automatic
21 rifles

Russian (tended to have more SMGs and semis available)

3 Squad leaders (SMG only)
3 LMGs
3 Assault classes
2 semi-autos
21 rifles

 

[Bivoj]

I would also suggest to put in some germans with PPSh41 instead of MP40 and with SVT40 instead of GEW41. They had a lot of them...

Maybe add a class with captured weapons (players choice to pick SVT40 or PPSh41) and reduce amounts of players to be assigned as assault and "elite" rifleman. This wouldn't screw balance as many players are crying and it would help realism as well...

 

[Leo4444]

This thread has been started multiple times. As it stands more than 50% have smgs/semis. Is it realistic? no Is it balanced? According to TW it is but I still dont know how. I remember how in ro1 the russians had semis in some maps and germans didnt how wasnt that unbalanced? Konigsplatz was never balanced but it was still one of the best maps in RO1. I would prefer less smgs on both sides. An equal amount.

 

[Josef Nader]

Guys, really, I have no idea what you're talking about. It's -rare- that assault and squadleader slots aren't open. I tend to only get killed by SMGs in the situations they were designed for, i.e. CQC. I have never been out-sniped by an SMG as a rifleman, and the only time I get killed over 50 yards is when I was trying to cross an open space standing with no cover.

I smell hyperbole in this here thread...

 

[LeRag]

i think if u try to get a ratio on how many soldiers per 1 ppsh/mp40, im quite sure the germans had more!
also effective combat range for mp40 was easily up to 100 m!

 

[wokelly]

i think if u try to get a ratio on how many soldiers per 1 ppsh/mp40, im quite sure the germans had more!
also effective combat range for mp40 was easily up to 100 m!

No the Germans really did not have that many MP40s per capita. The only units that saw heavy SMG use were volkstrum (or volksgrenadiers?) near the end of the war, and the motorized or mechanized grenadier units which tended to have a crap ton of automatic firepower compared to their infantry brethren (mainly because they had less men in a unit so needed more firepower to make up for that).

Anyways about 18 million Germans served in the Armed forces in one way or another during WWII, compared to almost 40 million Russians, thats about a 2:1 ratio in Russian favor. Yet 6 million PPSH compared to 1 million MP40s, thats a 6:1 ratio in the Russian favor. The Russians produced a ton of SMGs, mainly because a conscript with a SMG will be more effective than a conscript with a botl action rifle. Germans only figured that out at the end of the war when the issued lots of automatic weapons to their increasinly poorly trained infantry.

It is not only the low number of German SMGs here, on a year for year basis production was much higher in the last years of the war than initially, where as Russian SMG production was very high once production got going in November 1941 (155,000 made up to March 1942, than 3000 a day after that).

 

[LeRag]

allright i accept defeat

 

[Supersonicxx]

lol....realism...


then you only expirienced players should fight in german team and noobs on soviet team expect the leaders.

soviets will have 10 times more reinforcements while they got only ammo for every 10th riflemen lol...omg

its a game and has to be fun for BOTH sides !

 

[Derpus]

If community mapmakers can still dictate what and how many class types each team has, then none of this really matters. Official maps are going to keep some semblance of balance as that's what they want to do.

RO1 and DH has plenty of historically accurate maps, and I'm sure RO2 will as well.

 

[Hans_klempner]

Keep in mind the size of both nation's armies. During the course of the war Soviet army employed 5 to 6 times the amount of men the German army did, so it would need those extra PPSH's to reach the same percentage of men armed with an SMG.

Let's also keep in mind that the Germans deployed a huge variety of SMG's alongside the MP40, not to mention later the StG.

Another very good post Unus!

 

[greenlemonade]

WOW.

So lots of people seem to think the Germans had more MP40s than Russians had PPSH. This is not the case at all.
It is a known fact that the soviet forces had LOADS more PPSHs in the Battle of Stalingrad. It's one of the reasons they were able to win vs. the Germans superior training, artillery and air support.

Also, did anyone notice my post with the links to photos. There are LOADS of photos of PPSHs and not all that many MP40s.

And people saying that the production numbers dont matter should consider that 6,000,000 PPSH vs. 1,000,000 MP40s is a HUGE deal.

Germans didn't outfit whole squads with SMGs at Stalingrad. Russians did.



p.s. I already suggested making it easier for Germans to earn a captured PPSH loadout and I think its a GREAT idea.

 

[Overholt]

German tanks make up for the lack of german SMG infantry.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Anyways about 18 million Germans served in the Armed forces in one way or another during WWII, compared to almost 40 million Russians, thats about a 2:1 ratio in Russian favor. Yet 6 million PPSH compared to 1 million MP40s, thats a 6:1 ratio in the Russian favor. The Russians produced a ton of SMGs, mainly because a conscript with a SMG will be more effective than a conscript with a botl action rifle. Germans only figured that out at the end of the war when the issued lots of automatic weapons to their increasinly poorly trained infantry.

That's not entirely true, seeing as the German figure is for men who entered wehrmacht service since 1935, where'as the Russian figure is for 1940 onwards, excluding partisans.

Also the MP40 wasn't the only SMG fielded by the Germans, just as the MG34 was far from the only MG they fielded. The Germans issued a huge number of different SMG's, ranging from the MP28, MP34, MP35 to foreign made SMG's such as the Beretta M38 (MP738i). Heck the Waffen SS were even issued ~3,000 Finnish Suomi KP/-31's!

 

[greenlemonade]

Great points.

I wonder if Tripwire has noticed the landslide for "Less MP40s for historical reasons" or if they've even voted themselves.