Gamescon 2010 HEROES videos

[LemoN]

I would assume the spotter in the plane (not the pilot) might have binoculars, and be able to spot infantry from a hundred meters or more.

Weather or not they could reliably tell friend from foe on the other hand depends on how good those binocs are.

Which presents two problems.

If the spotter has binoculars, flying at an altitude between 100-200m directly above your target area makes it pretty much impossible to see anything due to the movement of the aircraft. Remember, it's still flying with roughly 100mph (roughly 50m/s) and the pilot would have to constantly adjust the plane to keep it somewhat in the area.

The only way to have a steady enough flight to spot something with binoculars is when flying a couple of hundred meters away and spotting towards the horizon. Let's say 300m above ground level and spotting 500m towards the horizon. This would give you a rather stable point of view and would enable you to accurately use your binoculars. Would you be able to ID individual solders? Probably not. This would also get the aircraft out of any effective fire from infantry weapons (remember that's roughly 700m distance to the aircraft which is still moving at a speed of 100mph).

 

[Pagan]

Lemon do you actually have fun playing games?

 

[LemoN]

Lemon do you actually have fun playing games?

Good argument mate.

You could actually try to contribute something to this discussion.
Saying "I trust TWI and don't judge anything now" has no meaning and doesn't help anyone.
Every discussion helps TWI, be it positive or negative feedback, be it long discussions or short statements, be it huge arguments involving the devs or short love letters.

Stuff like your post doesn't serve any purpose except personally attacking someone and filling up the boards with spam.

 

[EvilAmericanMan]

I believe that was a question, not an argument.

 

[Nimsky]

Which presents two problems.

If the spotter has binoculars, flying at an altitude between 100-200m directly above your target area makes it pretty much impossible to see anything due to the movement of the aircraft. Remember, it's still flying with roughly 100mph (roughly 50m/s) and the pilot would have to constantly adjust the plane to keep it somewhat in the area.

The only way to have a steady enough flight to spot something with binoculars is when flying a couple of hundred meters away and spotting towards the horizon. Let's say 300m above ground level and spotting 500m towards the horizon. This would give you a rather stable point of view and would enable you to accurately use your binoculars. Would you be able to ID individual solders? Probably not. This would also get the aircraft out of any effective fire from infantry weapons (remember that's roughly 700m distance to the aircraft which is still moving at a speed of 100mph).

And even then, that technique would only work in open fields. No matter how you put it, planes spotting infantry for platoon leaders on the ground is unrealistic. Doesn't belong in RO imo.

Of course that doesn't mean that recon planes should be removed from the game altogether. This is how they could be implemented in a realistic and historically plausible way):

1. The plane can only spot tanks and other vehicles
2. It flies a lot higher than it currently does (no one in his right mind would fly that low over enemy lines)
3. It can only be called in once per round, and only on some maps that have vehicles
4. You can't see it on the map, only by directly seeing the plane fly overhead

That would be quite realistic, even for full realism mode.

And let's keep it civil, guys. Criticism is good, especially at this stage of development when things can still be changed. We don't have to place a "I'm still really looking forward to the game though, it looks awesome!" disclaimer underneath every post, do we?

 

[LemoN]

And even then, that technique would only work in open fields. No matter how you put it, planes spotting infantry for platoon leaders on the ground is unrealistic. Doesn't belong in RO imo.

Of course that doesn't mean that recon planes should be removed from the game altogether. This is how they could be implemented in a realistic and historically plausible way):

1. The plane can only spot tanks and other vehicles
2. It flies a lot higher than it currently does (no one in his right mind would fly that low over enemy lines)
3. It can only be called in once per round, and only on some maps that have vehicles
4. You can't see it on the map, only by directly seeing the plane fly overhead

That would be quite realistic, even for full realism mode.

And let's keep it civil, guys. Criticism is good, especially at this stage of development when things can still be changed.

Good stuff mate.
I also think that the plane should be able to spot infantry, but only in certain areas (IE, open fields and at last 100m away from any friendly forces) in relaxed realism.

 

[Peter.Steele]

Which presents two problems.

If the spotter has binoculars, flying at an altitude between 100-200m directly above your target area makes it pretty much impossible to see anything due to the movement of the aircraft. Remember, it's still flying with roughly 100mph (roughly 50m/s) and the pilot would have to constantly adjust the plane to keep it somewhat in the area.

The only way to have a steady enough flight to spot something with binoculars is when flying a couple of hundred meters away and spotting towards the horizon. Let's say 300m above ground level and spotting 500m towards the horizon. This would give you a rather stable point of view and would enable you to accurately use your binoculars. Would you be able to ID individual solders? Probably not. This would also get the aircraft out of any effective fire from infantry weapons (remember that's roughly 700m distance to the aircraft which is still moving at a speed of 100mph).

First off, your recon planes are going to top out at about 100 mph. (Storch at 109, Piper Cub at 87.) Cruise will be about 2/3's that, and slower if they're going to be looking for stuff.

You're right, though, probably a spotter plane wouldn't have had the capability to call back every individual soldier. Hell, I'm pretty sure that they were still dealing with Morse code for their air-ground comms at this point on the Eastern Front.

But dude, seriously, it's just a game, and it's supposed to be fun. If you want absolute realism, go enlist, or make your own game. I'll even help you out with some of the 3D work. Or find a better game. But I'm pretty sure there isn't one at the moment, and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Unless, of course, you make one.

 

[Mormegil]

Good stuff mate.
I also think that the plane should be able to spot infantry, but only in certain areas (IE, open fields and at last 100m away from any friendly forces) in relaxed realism.

Since line of sight from the plane is required to be spotted, I think it's a given that oblique angles of view would only be useful for open fields or squares and such.

It would be nice to get some historical data on how low a Storch or Po-2 might have flown acting as a liaison craft.

Don't forget planes can also circle to get a more stable vantage point.

 

[cmdrsven]

I don't know, it seems a lot of people have wildly differing ideas about what this game is. To me it's been perfectly clear for a while what it is not. It is not a true-to-life war simulation, just like ROOST wasn't. Neither is it an arcade shooter influenced by real life warfare. Mostly I view ROHOS as a, in many ways, very innovative and unique game. At least in today's gaming environment.

Nothing quite like it has been done before so I refrain from projecting personal fantasies unto it. I'm just happy to follow its progression. My only humble wishes are for some rural maps and some vehicles, really.

 

[Miro!]

This thread should be renamed as : Do you find the recon plane gamey ? Yes ? Then come discuss about the same things all over again in every post

I understand your concerns about that plane gentlemen, but lets try to stop repeating ourselves Create a special thread for that new feature then, as i proposed just above

Dunno if others already noticed it, but i got to watch a full length video just today via youtube and saw the russain AVT 40 to balance versus the MKB 42.
It can be found here @ 9:30 Hell of a weapon

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saoevQpUrm8]YouTube - Gamescom Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad Gameplay Part 2/2[/URL]

 

[CCCP]

First off, your recon planes are going to top out at about 100 mph. (Storch at 109, Piper Cub at 87.) Cruise will be about 2/3's that, and slower if they're going to be looking for stuff.

You're right, though, probably a spotter plane wouldn't have had the capability to call back every individual soldier. Hell, I'm pretty sure that they were still dealing with Morse code for their air-ground comms at this point on the Eastern Front.

But dude, seriously, it's just a game, and it's supposed to be fun. If you want absolute realism, go enlist, or make your own game. I'll even help you out with some of the 3D work. Or find a better game. But I'm pretty sure there isn't one at the moment, and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Unless, of course, you make one.

Very clear why are you saying this.One just have to take a look at your signature LOL BAttlefield 2
36hours of play
of course you think a spotter plane pin pointing directly where every uncovered solgier is good idea.
Dude that's why it's not BF it's RO !!!!
(After this I kick you into deep well just like Leonidas )
I agree Ro needs bigger croud but red f dots on map is a bit over the board even for relaxed realism it should just approximate the poisons maybe incomming reinforcements etc.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

And it doesn't help that TWI tries to convince me that this is somewhat realistic and happened on a daily basis.

If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog and barks like a dog then it probably is a dog. If TWI make the dog meow and try to make me believe it is a cat doesn't change that fact that it still looks and smells like a dog.

dude, i love using that analogy too! actually just used it in a thread about KF but in all seriousness you're right. most of what we've gotten back that could be taken as official statements follows that exact line of reasoning. although the most recent comments from yoshi have pointed a few things out, i still completely agree with you that from what we saw in the videos, it's not a realistic feature at all.

And even then, that technique would only work in open fields. No matter how you put it, planes spotting infantry for platoon leaders on the ground is unrealistic. Doesn't belong in RO imo.

Of course that doesn't mean that recon planes should be removed from the game altogether. This is how they could be implemented in a realistic and historically plausible way):

1. The plane can only spot tanks and other vehicles
2. It flies a lot higher than it currently does (no one in his right mind would fly that low over enemy lines)
3. It can only be called in once per round, and only on some maps that have vehicles
4. You can't see it on the map, only by directly seeing the plane fly overhead

That would be quite realistic, even for full realism mode.

And let's keep it civil, guys. Criticism is good, especially at this stage of development when things can still be changed. We don't have to place a "I'm still really looking forward to the game though, it looks awesome!" disclaimer underneath every post, do we?

Nimsky you are great at summing these kind of things up! that would be the perfect solution on how to make what seems to be an "unrealistic feature" (due to the way it appears to be implimented in the videos) into a more "realistic" and "historical" feature. the only problem is that in order for that to happen, there's one key component that has yet to officially be confirmed.............TANKS

confirm tanks and that the purpose of the recon plane is to spot vehicles, which would be much more realistic than spotting infantry (already been shown how impractical it would be) and everyone can relax and know that the recon plane feature isn't as gamey as it currently appears to be.

 

[Peter.Steele]

Very clear why are you saying this.One just have to take a look at your signature LOL BAttlefield 2
36hours of play
of course you think a spotter plane pin pointing directly where every uncovered solgier is good idea.
Dude that's why it's not BF it's RO !!!!
(After this I kick you into deep well just like Leonidas )
I agree Ro needs bigger croud but red f dots on map is a bit over the board even for relaxed realism it should just approximate the poisons maybe incomming reinforcements etc.

Hey genius ... I've been playing RO since the day that it hit the shelves on retail. I own one (at least) of most of the weapons in the game. I've been active in this community for four years.

I'm about as big a grognard as you'll find, which I'd think you'd have noticed from one or another of my posts. But, at the same time, I'm also a bit of an admitted TWI fanboy, and in the end, it's their game, they'll make it how the hell they want to, and you'll either buy it or you won't. Either way, complaining about the recon plane isn't going to change things one damned bit, for one side or the other. If it's in there right now, then they've already spent so damned much time coding it that they're not going to take it out because a couple people don't like it. So, just relax, wait and see how it goes.

As for BC2, do I like it? Yep. Have I played it in the last, oh, two or three months? Nope. Just haven't found anything better to take up space in the sig.

 

[Ralfst3r]

Very clear why are you saying this.One just have to take a look at your signature LOL BAttlefield 2
36hours of play
of course you think a spotter plane pin pointing directly where every uncovered solgier is good idea.
Dude that's why it's not BF it's RO !!!!
(After this I kick you into deep well just like Leonidas )
I agree Ro needs bigger croud but red f dots on map is a bit over the board even for relaxed realism it should just approximate the poisons maybe incomming reinforcements etc.

Only the commander can see it, and only when he's at the radio, and only the enemies that aren't inside a building. Settle down.

 

[SheepDip]

Indeed Ralf. If the feature were to show all players the locations of the enemies on the map, or if they stayed there for a while etc then it'd be a problem.
But it's solely for the use of the SL to ID visible targets for offboard support, and he needs to be basically on the radio to see it - so I can't really see the issue.

It'd be nice to get Alan to weigh in on this topic, as it seems to have gotten a little out of hand with regards it's accuracy.

Reconnaissance aircraft were used heavily to monitor positions behind enemy lines before the Red Army started to win the aerial side of the conflict (Sept/Oct?) - but I don't have any info on the frequency or availability of such resources in this smaller scale (i.e not mass troop movements etc but battlefield recon) beyond that sort of "common knowledge" level. And I own no literature from soldiers/pilots that speaks of it in any detail.

 

[MEGADETHTHRETH]

Tripwire, just put the option in for different servers to turn recon planes on or off. Simple Solution.

 

[<*>Nora The Martyr]

BTW regarding spotting 100-300 meters up:

...posting low-rez screenshots of a town @ 300 meters is not valid.
Spotting MOVEMENT is a lot easier then spotting stationary targets.

Studying the politics of the RO community is like being on a demonic roller-coster.

Oh ye' of little faith, has TW ever wronged you?
They always listen to there community and always make genius decisions.

An amazing new Idea comes out, and 'certain peoples' QQ at the sound of it, before knowing half of a rats horse-**** about anything...

1. Heroes- Wahhhhh
2. Recon Planes- WahhhHHH
3. Ironsite sway- Wahhh

I just hope they ignore these ill informed 'NO' posts trashing artistic vision.

I trust TW. There will most likely be server-side options for most of these features.
I am sure there will be limits 2 arty/planes & hopefully going prone can reduce the affects of mortars/arty.

:IS2:First lets try playing with the new features before bashing them entirely.

 

[PNV]

It's not hard to spot movement from 300 meters in a moving aircraft, but it is difficult to differentiate between friend and foe, then relay precise information about each enemy (that wasn't in a building) to the commander and squad leaders, all while simultaneously avoiding small-arms fire. Even if the squad leaders must relay the information to the men, which causes a delay and perhaps an incomplete report, such precise information shouldn't be available to the commander in the first place.

I think most of us don't hate the idea but instead are offering more suggestions on how to improve it and make it realistic, which is a staple of Red Orchestra. And as it has been stated before, criticism can be a good thing, and I hope that Tripwire analyzes our feedback with open minds.

 

[<*>Nora The Martyr]

Yeah.. Have to agree

 

[Ermac]

I noticed that the reload animations are a good deal quicker. the AVT-40 looks pretty cool no doubt, but it tended to be a very unrealiable rifle and was not made in large enough numbers to be worth portraying I think. The videos show you have a choice between the Nagant pistol and TT-33, I think most will choose the TT-33. The Nagant fired a relatively week cartridge and was slower to reload compared to the TT-33.