Game Philosophy

[rukqoa]

Alright. I've been lurking around the forums for a while without posting, and I'm liking what I see. Devs actually responding to posters, friendly community...etc.

A little intro: I've been a big Battlefield fan since 1942. I'm considering getting HoS because of all the interesting new features I'm seeing in the 30-minute videos on gametrailers. Heck, the mods alone is worth the buy.

I just want to know what the core values of RO. For Battlefield, it's an arcade-y game with large maps, vehicular warfare, and essential teamwork. I'm guessing that those are also in HoS, but where is the scale between balance and realism? (I've never played RO, so excuse the ignorant question.) I like immersion in a video game, but sometimes realism does get taken a bit too far, and I'd like to know where HoS will stand on a scale.

To make it more understandable (for me. some of these 'benchmarks' may not be familiar to the hardcore RO fans ):
1. Modern Warfare 2
2. Bad Company 2
3. Battlefield 2
4. Forgotten Hope Mod (for BF2)
5. Project Reality Mod (for BF2)
6. ARMA 2

I'm hoping to see something around 4. What do you guys think?

 

[hockeywarrior]

I think that if you're comfortable with the level of realism in FH2 or Project Reality, you'll be very happy with RO1/2. RO1/2 are more realistic in that they have much more detailed features that a Battlefield game or mod is capable of, such as a full ballistics system, morale system, suppression, first person cover system, etc etc. But if you're ok with getting 1 shotted by bolt action rifles and getting killed from places you can't see (at least some of the time), then you'll have no problem with this game.

At the same time, RO has always been about infantry battles at its core, so you won't see more than a couple huge maps, and you certainly won't see tons of pilotable vehicles -- 2 tanks are planned for release but they are EXTREMELY detailed and border on tank simulation in terms of authenticity. Since infantry is at the core of gameplay, RO, in my opinion has always had fairly fast paced action but with out all of the complete spammy BS of CoD and the Battlefield series.

The RO devs have always had the philosophy that they want to make a game that is as realistic as possible but still accessible to get into. Easy to jump in, and very difficult to master.

Read the fact thread if you want details:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=48698

 

[VariousNames]

Tripwire is of the opinion, from what I can gather, and hopefully they will comment and clarify,

that realism is its own brand of balance. E.g. a bolt action rifle has a quality to distinguish it from semi automatic rifles, and likewise with submachine guns versus machine guns.

To give you an idea, Red Orchestra Ost Front had a map called Konigsplatz in which the Allies got artillery and two tanks. Those tanks were the moderately powerful T-34/85 and the IS-2 :IS2:. Alternately, the Axis did not get artillery support and they only get one tank, the Tiger I. However, the Axis get more effective infantry anti-tank weapons like Panzerfausts. The lines are very jagged, and the map doesn't always feel balanced for the Axis, but it's always an engaging experience and the authenticity of being in a difficult position sometimes outweighs the pain of getting smashed by artillery and HE rounds.

My opinion is that Red Orchestra is about making games playable and authentic. Tripwire has said that authenticity sometimes makes games more playable. There have been several innovations in that regard...for instance, Tripwire has added the ability to toggle between ironsights/scopes onto their sniper rifles. They've also added in some incredible technology to allow machine gunners to elevate over a wall to get a good angle to shoot at people otherwise obscured by cover. And generally, their first person collision detection will make snipers easier to visualize because they can no longer rely on clipping to obscure their position. Their surface weapon stabilization technology has made aiming engaging and eased some of the frustration of weapon sway.

Tripwire is also adding a "Relaxed realism" mode for scrubs and/or failures who cannot handle the awesomeness of real combat. It will include gigantic icons in a fakey HUD and other stupid nonsense that console players and/or Call of Duty kids should enjoy. So you really have no excuse not to buy this game and love all over it.

 

[LemoN]

I'd say HoS will be between 4 and 5.

At it's heart it will always be an arcade game, albeit with a lot of realism and realistic features "tacked on". A game is more defined by it's basic gameplay concept, not so much by the realism of it's weaponry and the like. IE even with extremely realistic weapons and damage CoD will always stay an arcade game as it's core gameplay systems and functions don't allow it to be anything else. So if you're ok with "arcade gameplay and basic functions ala BF" with loads of realism added to it then I guess you'll really like HoS!

 

[VariousNames]

I'd say HoS will be between 4 and 5.

At it's heart it will always be an arcade game, albeit with a lot of realism and realistic features "tacked on". A game is more defined by it's basic gameplay concept, not so much by the realism of it's weaponry and the like. IE even with extremely realistic weapons and damage CoD will always stay an arcade game as it's core gameplay systems and functions don't allow it to be anything else. So if you're ok with "arcade gameplay and basic functions ala BF" with loads of realism added to it then I guess you'll really like HoS!

Aside from the zone capture mechanic in Ost I personally don't see what could be construed as unrealistic about it.

The quality of Red Orchestra is that its weapon handling is some of the strongest as far as how realistically the weapons behave. Additionally their loadouts are very rigid, and we've already seen some criticism about the tanks being too realistic (multi-crew, wobbly tank gun, etcetera). My personal opinion is that there are very few things in Red Orchestra's core gameplay mechanics that are not realism first. For instance, recall the gigantic controversy surrounding FOV zoom. The objective in either case was realism and the change to FOV zoom only took place immediately after Tripwire was convinced it would be accurate through their real world experience.

 

[Nezzer]

RO1 costs 10 dollars on Steam, just buy it already!
RO2 is probably not being released before August, so there's plenty of time to play RO1 in the meantime.

 

[Private Who?]

RO1 costs 10 dollars on Steam, just buy it already!
RO2 is probably not being released before August, so there's plenty of time to play RO1 in the meantime.

Exactly. You really are missing out on a great deal of fun right NOW by not having RO. For 10 bucks you could pretty much answer a lot of your question from your OP. ROHoS will build on that, and we hope make it an overall better game.

I think ROHoS will wind up in the '4' range. This would be the sweet spot for me. The uber-realism of ArmA2 is a bit of a drag for me, but then again the console port arcade nature of the later CoD games is just wretched. I have and have played DOD:S, CoD1, CoDUO, ArmA2, CS:S...all that. Those games are fun for what they are at times, but RO remains my one true home-run game.

 

[Grobut]

RO1 costs 10 dollars on Steam, just buy it already!
RO2 is probably not being released before August, so there's plenty of time to play RO1 in the meantime.

Aye, RO really is it's own thing, you can't really compare it another game (you can compare feature X to a similar feature in Game Y and so forth, but then we'll be here all day, there's just so much to cover, so many games we could try to draw comparisons to), RO is just a rather unique blend of things, aswell as having a lot of things you will only find in RO.

In grossly generalized terms, i guess we could say RO is heavilly founded in realism, but doesen't want to become an outright simulator, it wants to focus on the elements of realism that are fun and gets you into the action, and doesen't want to dwelve on the realism aspects that are tedious and keeps you away from the action.. that's probably as clouse as i can describe it.


To get the full picture, you'd have to try the game, or if money is in short supply, atleast watch a whole bunch of gameplay vids and try to get something out of that (there's plenty up on Youtube of RO:Ost).

But even that is not the entire picture, because RO2 does aim to lower the bar of entry. Basically, a big problem with RO1 was that, due to budgetary constraints mostly, it failed to explain things to new players, who would often find their first tries of the game confusing and probably a little intimidating..

RO2 aims to solve that problem by giving new players lots of information they never got in the first game, and by having an SP mode they can play and learn from.

 

[Nimsky]

'If it's easy to do in real life, it should be easy to do in RO.'

That's one of TWI's philosophies, and has been since the mod days.

I'd describe RO's gameplay as realistic (but not as realistic as ArmA), but with fast-paced, intense and brutal action. It's the best WWII FPS ever and RO2 will be even better, 'nuff said.

 

[Taisenki]

I think the battlefield mods need to be...moved far far far away from ArmA 2. You need some spaces


5) Project Reality
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11) ArmA 2

Theres also resistance and liberation source mod on steam.

 

[LemoN]

Aside from the zone capture mechanic in Ost I personally don't see what could be construed as unrealistic about it.

The quality of Red Orchestra is that its weapon handling is some of the strongest as far as how realistically the weapons behave. Additionally their loadouts are very rigid, and we've already seen some criticism about the tanks being too realistic (multi-crew, wobbly tank gun, etcetera). My personal opinion is that there are very few things in Red Orchestra's core gameplay mechanics that are not realism first. For instance, recall the gigantic controversy surrounding FOV zoom. The objective in either case was realism and the change to FOV zoom only took place immediately after Tripwire was convinced it would be accurate through their real world experience.

None of the features you described are the core mechanics but actually are "tacked on".

Core mechanics is:

How does the game work?
What are the objectives of the game?
How does a round evolve?
Does it have a number of limited size maps?
How's the game designed to evolve?
Is it all about killing the enemy or does it invole other type of scenarios?
etc.

Basically, RO is still based on the same core mechanics as found in games like Quake or CoD, you've got two teams with fixed spawnpoints on a limited map without the freedom of large scale movement, the action get's funneled into certain areas, etc.

The exact opposite is ArmA2. It's core game mechanics and ideas are far more realistic than RO's but it's "tacked on" features are not. The weapon handling in RO is far more realistic than in ArmA, the vehicle combat is more realistic, etc.

It's simply two completely different takes on realism. One has arcade game mechanics designed to offer classic gameplay that "feels realistic", with the other side having realistic game mechanics to offer simulation type gameplay that "play out realistic". Having aracde game mechanics and concepts isn't really a bad thing, it's simply very different.

 

[VyMajoris]

Just a quick note:















PR has random ballistics.

 

[VariousNames]

'If it's easy to do in real life, it should be easy to do in RO.'

That's one of TWI's philosophies, and has been since the mod days.

I'd describe RO's gameplay as realistic (but not as realistic as ArmA), but with fast-paced, intense and brutal action. It's the best WWII FPS ever and RO2 will be even better, 'nuff said.

In a nutshell, man.

Great post.

 

[Ender]

From what has been confirmed so far I think HOS will actually be able to fit in a range of play types. The baseline for realism will be a little higher then most games but think every one is going to be able to find a server that will be like BC2 hardcore squad death match to like arma2 with more focus on the combat then the transportation to a battle zone from a base.

One of the good things about HOS is that there will be true dedicated severs and a SDK. I'm There will be a wide variety of severs that will fit your play type or mood.

 

[LemoN]

to like arma2 with more focus on the combat then the transportation to a battle zone from a base.

That really isn't the point about ArmA.

The point isn't having to (or being able to) travel to the combat area, it's the freedom to decide how and where you engage the enemy. And to the person who downvoted my previous post, I really don't think you understood what I was saying.

If anything I was simply underlining the main difference between the philosophy in the two games. Does having arcade roots make RO bad? Definitely not!

It actually makes it better on a pvp "jump in and play" basis.

 

[VariousNames]

That really isn't the point about ArmA.

The point isn't having to (or being able to) travel to the combat area, it's the freedom to decide how and where you engage the enemy. And to the person who downvoted my previous post, I really don't think you understood what I was saying.

There are a few trolls about who'd rather click a button than provide a substantive response

If anything I was simply underlining the main difference between the philosophy in the two games. Does having arcade roots make RO bad? Definitely not!

It actually makes it better on a pvp "jump in and play" basis.

RO is less tactical generally but if you imagine you have a commissar sticking a gun into your back and herding you into a choke point it makes more sense

 

[LemoN]

RO is less tactical generally but if you imagine you have a commissar sticking a gun into your back and herding you into a choke point it makes more sense

Ok, now you're getting funny.

 

[Welshie]

Welcome to the forums Rukqua
RO is still after all these years one of My Favorites, if not the Favorite FPS and RO2 from what i've been seeing and reading will be the only FPS (For Me) that will have a chance of beating it.
If You like niced balanced gameplay with (as much as possible) realism built in then You can't go far past ROost and (Hopefully) ROhos.
Also it will be great to get back to WWII after the deluge of MW titles that have been brought out.
Not only that TWI are one of the best in the buisness at keeping their releases up to date and constantly progressing (ROost and KF are good example of that)

 

[rukqoa]

Alright. Thanks guys. I think I'll probably get RO on steam later. I think I've watched all the HoS videos that were ever made public already.

And to the guy who commented on PR: NOT my favorite mod. It's so annoying when you get shot (and spread strawberry jam across your face at random intervals while making barfing sounds) and the suppression is way overdone. Everything else is fine (yeah I know there's random deviation just like every BF game, but it's not that big of a deal because I get used to it).

Regarding the HUD, would you be able to pull up the HUD in the non-relaxed mode? Feels like I would be quite lost without a map or objective indicators for the first couple times on a map.

Regarding balance, I saw the dev demo'ing the sniper rifle + ironsights in the interview video, and I'm assuming that they'll somehow balance the snipers by giving them less armor/ammo/nades/other standard infantry equipment...etc or limiting their number in a team, right?

Completely off topic, is there a modern era mod in development right now? I saw the Vietnam one displaying graphics, but couldn't find a big group of people working on modern era stuff.... (modern warfare is overdone, I know, but hey, so is WWII )

 

[timur]

Regarding the HUD, would you be able to pull up the HUD in the non-relaxed mode? Feels like I would be quite lost without a map or objective indicators for the first couple times on a map.

Regarding balance, I saw the dev demo'ing the sniper rifle + ironsights in the interview video, and I'm assuming that they'll somehow balance the snipers by giving them less armor/ammo/nades/other standard infantry equipment...etc or limiting their number in a team, right?

Completely off topic, is there a modern era mod in development right now? I saw the Vietnam one displaying graphics, but couldn't find a big group of people working on modern era stuff.... (modern warfare is overdone, I know, but hey, so is WWII )

In un-relaxed mode, there will undoubtedly be a map; past ROs have done so, and the maps are far too large and complex not to have some form of pull-up map (I can't recall the key in Ost, but I remember it was brought up by some key)

The marksmen/snipers will be done historically (and I don't believe there IS armor) so expect them to be like in Ost, roughly; a powerful, but rare opponent. Also, a sniper gets a lot of gear, and with the new weight system, that generally means that snipers will be weighed down pretty well.

As for Modern mods, I recall seeing someone model some modern guns in, and some plans and whatnot, but I have no clue if it is in actual production.