Frustrated by the lack of content and patches

[Oy The Destroyer]

I never said it would delay the entire staff for weeks on end, what a ridiculous strawman. Yet each time you waste the time of many staff members, trying to scrap together small patches every few weeks that risk introducing bugs that you have to go back and clean up, when you could have waited and tested it properly and sent it through QA fully, it adds up and could eventually add weeks of Dev time and unnecessary effort. The fact that they give us almost weekly news updates is already great, then they even start doing graphs of their progress. Maybe Yoshiro should do another list of things the team is actively aware of and working on, the last one was a while ago.

The other point I'd like to make is just because you don't see change doesn't mean it isn't happening. They've already implemented loads of feedback, they just haven't released it yet. And they've also shown off the new perks, they seem pretty damn well balanced to me compared to the vanilla 4. Have some faith in TW to develop their own freaking game and learn from experience. Anyway, I think this thread should be closed because it's silly and whiny and the only frustrating thing here is people like the OP who have no patience. I think this thread has run its course as the quality of arguments has declined, from an already astonishingly low standard to begin with.

 

[silveralen]

I never said it would delay the entire staff for weeks on end, what a ridiculous strawman. Yet each time you waste the time of many staff members, trying to scrap together small patches every few weeks that risk introducing bugs that you have to go back and clean up, when you could have waited and tested it properly and sent it through QA fully, it adds up and could eventually add weeks of Dev time and unnecessary effort. The fact that they give us almost weekly news updates is already great, then they even start doing graphs of their progress. Maybe Yoshiro should do another list of things the team is actively aware of and working on, the last one was a while ago.

The other point I'd like to make is just because you don't see change doesn't mean it isn't happening. They've already implemented loads of feedback, they just haven't released it yet. And they've also shown off the new perks, they seem pretty damn well balanced to me compared to the vanilla 4. Have some faith in TW to develop their own freaking game and learn from experience. Anyway, I think this thread should be closed because it's silly and whiny and the only frustrating thing here is people like the OP who have no patience. I think this thread has run its course as the quality of arguments has declined, from an already astonishingly low standard to begin with.

The point of EA is to get consumer feedback along the way. We are, quite literally, supposed to help QA test. This is a beta. We are here to test things. If they had no intention of actually using EA players as a resource, they shouldn't have had one.

Yes... we haven't seen any changes. For three months. Meaning we can't give any additional feedback, because we have no idea what they have and haven't done.

This.
Guys who don't understand what EA usually should look up some vids by Jim Sterling. He shows what Sh*t EA games almost always actually are.

The thing is, in EA I can forgive lack of polish. Why? Because polish is the final step so to speak.

The best way to describe my issue is I feel like I'm getting the game in chunks rather than layers. Normally with EA games I feel like I see the game start as barebones, unpolished. I see each aspect have more added to it over time, till eventually it is polished. Everything in the game is being builkt up concurrently.

With KF2, I feel like we take one section, build it up tip top to perfection, and then release it. No layering of the game as a whole, instead we just get chunks of finished content.

I vastly prefer the former to the latter. I don't require a polished EA. A polished EA makes no sense to me. I keep saying this, but the entire point of EA is to get feedback before features are finalized, not after they've already been polished.

Maybe some people prefer it this way, but they aren't the majority. Ark, a game with lots of unpolished content, is sitting at #4 on steam charts. KF2 isn't even in the top 100. Look at everyone complaining here.

A lot of people don't know what an EA is or what it is for, and those people include the developers clearly. You can claim that those sort of EA's are crap if you like, but the fact is it has a large player base, KF2 doesn't. Most people prefer a steakhouse ribeye to a gourmet filet.

 

[poosh]

@silveralen
Despite I'm disagree with few of your statements (e.g. calling KF2 worst EA), in general I think you're right. Don't listen to those people: [almost] none of them are playing KF2 but they still keep defending it. They treat it like a "holly cow". The fact that 90%+ EA title are nothing but a cashgrab isn't an excuse for KF2.

KF2 EA shipped with "3.5" perks and 3+1 maps. Most of the community got bored with the game in 1.5 months. The next update will give us "2.5" perks and 2 more maps. It's logically to assume that the community will get bored from new content in ~1 month. And the question is: What TWI will going to do next? Changing their EA handling or another 2+ months of waiting?

 

[Diogenes]

I'm not completely on pair with this topic, but nonetheless I'll say something about it: They could aproach the updates in a much better way if they separate the big content updates from the minor balance updates.

I mean, I can understand the maps, weapons and perks taking a long time, but what is the excuse to things like the M4 shotgun? They could fix that and other minor adjustments in the blink of an eye, its just a matter of changing some numbers.

But instead of that, we have to wait for a big update to fix little balance issues that, if fixed, would make the game much better by themselves.

What is the incentive to use the M4? Who uses it? NOBODY. Its like the support class has only 3 weapons...

 

[Blazur]

This game has fallen out of relevance for me

 

[allliland]

I'm not completely on pair with this topic, but nonetheless I'll say something about it: They could aproach the updates in a much better way if they separate the big content updates from the minor balance updates.

I mean, I can understand the maps, weapons and perks taking a long time, but what is the excuse to things like the M4 shotgun? They could fix that and other minor adjustments in the blink of an eye, its just a matter of changing some numbers.

But instead of that, we have to wait for a big update to fix little balance issues that, if fixed, would make the game much better by themselves.

What is the incentive to use the M4? Who uses it? NOBODY. Its like the support class has only 3 weapons...

I was suggesting the same thing. Small updates more frequent. Focus on one perk-->release-->fix (balance/nerf/adjust etc.)-->new map-->release etc. Small updates, quick feedback, quick progress. What we got now is the same stuff to when buyed the game back then. A map and charakter...well i dont see this as a big improvement. I was part of many Games with closed/open beta or EA. Usually this kind of "we will bring a huge patch after months with a bunch of new things" ends not well. They spend atleast same ammount of time fixing old and new stuff. This seem to be the one where it goes wrong. Sadly most of this kind of critic ends in "hey its EA they can do what they want", "if you know better then do it on your own" or my favorite "don't like it, thenplay another game" argument. I didnt buy a EA game to not play it. I buyed it to be part of improvement/ development of the game. If there is no new content for months...well there are no steps forward.

I really hope the big patch (whenever it will live) will bring much new stuff and fix old stuff. If it not gonna fix the current problems (M4, teleport, bugged paths etc.) and bring up new bugs (like its normal=new content-->new bugs) i sadly dosent see many people starting this game again.

 

[Diogenes]

Exactly. Some users don't know the difference between constructive criticism and insults. If the EA players don't contribute with their opinions on the progress of the game, why even have early access?

I'm am optimistic guy, so I hope after this big update, the devs will listen to the community and bring more regular, small updates, instead of putting everything in a giant update that neves comes...

 

[Al Bobo]

I don't treat KF2 as EA game anymore. It really feels more like we got a tiny 'main' game and it gets free episodes every few months or so. Well, I don't mind really. I still play KF2 regularly and I'm having fun. I guess I could argue that they should remove EA description and call it like KF2: episode one or something, but nah. I'm having fun so devs are free to do their thing. I'm eagerly waiting for episode two.

 

[RuMan]

I can imagine in the TWI office someone to say at the morning meeting.

"GUYS we need to stop following our schedule, that we follow for years in order to get our software to the point it is right now, and start do small ballancing fixes on our unfinished product because "allliland" from the forum demands it!"

 

[Diogenes]

How about they change their schedule to something that makes more sense?
Quick balance updates are just that...quick. They don't have to create any new content, just make some adjustments to the atributes of guns and perks based on community feedback (that is not lacking), even if its just one update a month.

It's not like changing some numbers to fix the M4 shotgun and some other minor things would DESTROY all of their schedule on the content updates. Or am I wrong?

 

[jd641]

It's not like changing some numbers to fix the M4 shotgun and some other minor things would DESTROY all of their schedule on the content updates. Or am I wrong?

Nothing is as simple as changing a few stats when it's an entire game you're talking about. One code change on something that seems insignificant can inadvertently introduce numerous obvious and not obvious, until weeks later, bugs and that does throw off schedules and does delay content. It doesn't always happen but it's much more frequent than people realize.

People who've made mutators with changed stats can do it because of the small codebase they're working with, that's not the case when it's code for the actual game.

 

[Oy The Destroyer]

How about they change their schedule to something that makes more sense?
Quick balance updates are just that...quick. They don't have to create any new content, just make some adjustments to the atributes of guns and perks based on community feedback (that is not lacking), even if its just one update a month.

It's not like changing some numbers to fix the M4 shotgun and some other minor things would DESTROY all of their schedule on the content updates. Or am I wrong?

And when they tweak the M4, what happens when the next update comes out and they need to change it again for some reason? Then they wasted hours the first time they changed it. Now if they changed all the things we complain about, that would be a week of work to make balance patch, which almost all has to be redone AGAIN once the content update hits. Use ya brain mon.

 

[Ryno5660]

Not to mention that they have actually said before "We are not doing EA that way, we are doing it the way we believe it should be done" and nobody can really contest that.

Everyone is like "oh this isn't what EA is about" and "it should be quicker this is EA after all" but that's just how others have done it, typically as humans we have taken that as the norm quickly and turned it into some kind of EA "tradition". But that's just not how things are being done here.

They have also explained why they are taking longer to get out this "content pack". In the long run this reduces time between actual content being added, and I won't argue with that - Details are elsewhere, but it comes down to, this is not the ARK team or whoever, everyone works differently.

 

[Diogenes]

Changing the damage of a weapon is hardly a game breaking update, and don't take hours to do. And if they need to change again later, to fine tune even more? Even better.

You guys are going to irrational lengths to defend this inefficient method of approaching updates.

I know its not "their way" to do things like this, but maybe, just maybe...looking at the examples of devs that have done it right may be a good idea.

 

[pie1055]

Changing the damage of a weapon is hardly a game breaking update, and don't take hours to do. And if they need to change again later, to fine tune even more? Even better.

TL,DR; changing damage values is one of the best ways to break a game.

Once the values reach the tipping point of changing the number of hits to kill something(and why else would you change the damage values in the first place?) you've just changed how valuable the weapon is, which will affect the meta. Players may start using different builds, other shotguns may no longer be used at all, other perks may begin to be used less, certain enemies may begin to be trivialized because the M4/M4 combos now dominate(s) them, different amounts of money will be available to the team as the AA12 is being used less, which will affect how fast other team members gain their preferred equipment... And that's just game balance.

All of the above comes into play when you begin the QA process as you need to know as many answers to the above as possible to determine whether or not the changes can be released. If you decide to skip this process, players may get frustrated that you're changing values "willy-nilly" when balance gets thrown way off because you didn't do your homework.

------Summary-----

If you put changes to the M4 in with your changes with 2 new perks, a berserker rework, and 6 pages of other things you can just do the QA process for all of them at once. Of course I could be wrong as I haven't worked in the field professionally yet, but the experience I have so far leads me to this conclusion. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[poosh]

And when they tweak the M4, what happens when the next update comes out and they need to change it again for some reason? Then they wasted hours the first time they changed it. Now if they changed all the things we complain about, that would be a week of work to make balance patch, which almost all has to be redone AGAIN once the content update hits. Use ya brain mon.

But this is how balance work should be done:
Tweak => Test => Gather Feedback => Tweak again => Test => Feedback => etc.

At the current moment player feedback says that M4 sucks. But do you (or anybody, or Tripwire) really know how to make it useful and balanced? I doubt that. If you search the forums you'll find dozen suggestions how M4 could be fixed. Which one(-s) to choose?.. The only way to find the correct solution is to make initial adjustments, release update and gather new feedback. Then make another tweaks, new release and new feedback. Do it again and again until balance line will be drawn.

For example, when I was modding KF1, I had tweaked Husk Gun 17 times before I found a good balance solution to make it useful, enjoyable but not overpowered. 17 updates! Of course, you can call me "a stupid modder" and keep believing that your "holy cow" will find perfect balance from the first try...

Spoiler!

Btw, vanilla KF1 Husk Gun still sucks...

Pace has been lost already. And it would be stupid now for Tripwire to pause working on big content patch to release quick balance update for the game that [almost] nobody plays. But after the patch I wish Tripwire to think about bi-weekly balance updates.

 

[Rattler]

The M4 always sucked for the high difficulties imo. The AK always was the obvious choice.

 

[silverlighted]

For example, when I was modding KF1, I had tweaked Husk Gun 17 times before I found a good balance solution to make it useful, enjoyable but not overpowered. 17 updates! Of course, you can call me "a stupid modder" and keep believing that your "holy cow" will find perfect balance from the first try...

How long did you wait between each tweak?

 

[Diogenes]

Pie1055, I inderstand that its not gonna be perfect in the first try. But that is one more reason to make the first move sooner than later. And besides, they are not going to change values blindly, they already have a lot of feedback and if they play their own game, they surely have some idea of how to improve the M4. And the M4 is just one example.

Take a game like CSGO, for instance. They had patches nerfing the deagle, the buffing the deagle, then nerfing again, and then slightly buffing to the state it is now. And CSGO is a heavily competitive game, so changing those values is not a small task. But they faced it anyway, until they got it right!

And besides, the M4 is so broken right now, that it would be a hard task to make it worse. They may make it overpowered a bit, but its not final, they can perfect the balance later.

All I know is the more updates and feedback the weapons get, the better the balance will be...

 

[Oy The Destroyer]

You guys are just missing the point and dont understand the way it's being done. This isn't about releasing one easy fix in your little perfect world delusion. It isn't about the holy cow either. This patch is not only the first one, but it's massive. Releasing it all at once, polished to a shine and tested until the QA people attempt suicide, it will be a massive update and in the long run is better off done this way than split up into several small, unstable patches that will mostly have to be redone anyway. You want subpar content fast, or excellent content at a slower pace? Just have patience and wait, and you'll get quality AND quantity. The more you ask for updates, the more you demonstrate your lack of understanding of not only game design but also of managing many people and workloads.