Free aim on iron sights needs to go

[VariousNames]

The free aim on iron sights in HoS needs to go away.

When you aim down the sights you move your entire rifle along with your arms, shoulder, and head. Because you are lining up your sights with your eyes, the entire upper portion of your body moves as ONE UNIT.

I cannot fathom why someone figured you should be able to alter the height of your rifle without altering the height of your face and yet still be able to see down the sights with a perfect line. This is unrealistic and will not contribute in any way to gameplay.

If you wanted to make it so you can pinpoint targets on your screen without tilting the camera (which contributes to awkward gameplay), you should make it so you can alter your height....maybe with the page up page down or with traditional lean & peak.

And if you really MUST include free aim on ironsights, please do us the favor of making it an alt-sight thing. I don't want my turning being affected by this, it will make movement too awkward and make players unnecessarily clumsy.

 

[LemoN]

I've been saying this since a few month's but noone seems to listen....

 

[Zetsumei]

You can pull your gun down when looking around the sights, its just there is a max in it. It depends on your definition of what the screen portrays as well.

Is the center of the screen the focus point of someones eye, or is the screen more like a window where the user behind the computer decide what his eyes are looking at.

I believe the devs perception is that the center of the screen is the center of focus of the eyes (which aint the same as my perception but is the same as lemons). The first person freeaim is there so you can move away the gun slightly from your center of focus, so your target is not obscured by the is and then can put the is back.

For me personally in the realistic sense having it is neither better or worse than having things fixed. Although it allows for some more fluidity and could be used as a method to say stop popupping.

 

[Reise]

+1 to your post Zetsumei.

The free aim in IS isn't terribly excessive, and it allows for some more realistic and less rigid motion.

 

[Matt Baker]

Matt Baker

Matt Baker

I would like to have a looking system like in ARMA 2.

So that you can move you head without moving the body.
You could move your head at the same length at the same aligned of the rifle.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

I love free-aiming.
It also forces you to take a bit more time to aim. The average rifleman needs about 3 seconds to get a good sightpicture and fire accurately.
In games this is under a second, because you now exactly where your ironsights are going to pop up.
Free-aiming ensures more realistic aiming times, and as has been said access to ironsights without them obscuring your view the entire time.
Basically you can hold your rifle in a low-ready stance, without the need of an extra button to switch between hipped, low-ready, and ironsight mode.

 

[shadowmoses]

I love free aiming aswell. im quite good at it after the years and i think its an important piece of the game.

the weapon shooting system is realistic in the sense that weather you are aiming down the sights or not its going to shoot and hit what ever its being pointed at. these guns are accurate in that way. but to make it so run-and-gunners to take advantage of this accuracy and realistic portrayal this system should be kept in.

i think the main point is:
no one runs around a battlefield with their arms tense and aiming exactly where they are looking.

My vote is for it to be kept in

 

[Flogger23m]

The first two posts were spot on.

All free aim when using iron sights does is make it feel unnatural and make aiming that much more difficult that it is compared to real life.

And considering this game is based on realism, I think it should be removed.

The movement already present in the original RO is already enough.



If anyone is unconvinced, pick up a rifle (or airsoft one will do), aim down the sights and turn and aim at different things.

Even the amount shown in the video feels like too much. Really, as I mentioned above, all it does is make it harder and less natural to aim.

Harder does not equal realism.

I say remove free aim from the iron sights.

I love free aiming aswell. im quite good at it after the years and i think its an important piece of the game.

the weapon shooting system is realistic in the sense that weather you are aiming down the sights or not its going to shoot and hit what ever its being pointed at. these guns are accurate in that way. but to make it so run-and-gunners to take advantage of this accuracy and realistic portrayal this system should be kept in.

i think the main point is:
no one runs around a battlefield with their arms tense and aiming exactly where they are looking.

My vote is for it to be kept in

We're talking about free aim when using the iron sights. Yes, when you are aiming, you are supposed to look at the sights. That is the point of the iron sight mode.

I love free-aiming.
It also forces you to take a bit more time to aim. The average rifleman needs about 3 seconds to get a good sightpicture and fire accurately.
In games this is under a second, because you now exactly where your ironsights are going to pop up.
Free-aiming ensures more realistic aiming times, and as has been said access to ironsights without them obscuring your view the entire time.
Basically you can hold your rifle in a low-ready stance, without the need of an extra button to switch between hipped, low-ready, and ironsight mode.

A bit off topic....

While this is a valid point, it is actually too slow to bring the rifles up in RO Ost Front.

Yes, the rifle sights should move around and never be perfectly still, but in RO Ost it takes too long to pull the rifle up.

Take the STG-44 for example. I can hold an AR-15/AKM and have it pointing at the ground, to shouldering it and be looking down the sights quicker than it takes the soldiers in RO Ost to shoulder the STG-44 from the hip mode. They aren't STG-44s, but they are pretty similar. I am sure a trained soldier would be even quicker than someone like me, who has had zero training.

 

[LemoN]

no one runs around a battlefield with their arms tense and aiming exactly where they are looking.

But that's just the point of the iron sight mode, to aim at something.

And the ONLY way to aim at something and hit is to lock up your entire upper body and arms to one unit.

All that freeaim while in ironsights does imo is make it feel awkward and less realistic.

 

[Zetsumei]

Depending on how you look at things. Its equally realistic or more realistic in the eyes of other. The reason for tripwire is that sometimes you want to look at something and slightly move the gun away. However the gun doesnt unalign because sometimes you want to move the gun down and shoot at the person below you rather than stop your view being blocked.

For me the center of my screen is not the center of my vision, if i look at the right side of the screen then that point if the center of my vision.

I doubt it would make the game harder, as you can still use your ironsights to aim. If you had a crosshair when hipshooting freeaim wouldnt make it harder either.

Its a matter of opinion and personal feel, which makes it impossible to discuss.
I guess it would be better to just create a poll

 

[LemoN]

Depending on how you look at things. Its equally realistic or more realistic in the eyes of other. The reason for tripwire is that sometimes you want to look at something and slightly move the gun away. However the gun doesnt unalign because sometimes you want to move the gun down and shoot at the person below you rather than stop your view being blocked.

For me the center of my screen is not the center of my vision, if i look at the right side of the screen then that point if the center of my vision.

I doubt it would make the game harder, as you can still use your ironsights to aim. If you had a crosshair when hipshooting freeaim wouldnt make it harder either.

Its a matter of opinion and personal feel, which makes it impossible to discuss.
I guess it would be better to just create a poll

I dont know if you like ArmA's ironsights, but i just hate the freeaim there.
It does feel awkward and it does make it incredibly stupid looking.

The thing is that if you look at it from the "I r soldier" perspective then there is only one choice, no freeaim.
If you look at it with your window perspective, there could be a gazillion solutions and methods.

 

[Zetsumei]

What i hate from freeaim is that the movement of your sights is not lineair anymore.

Aka you know that generally moving your mouse X centimeters means turning X degrees. Making it possible to snap shoot something and making things feel natural. So the visuals and the thing your doing for your instince wont match up, in the same way that bayo stabbing got pretty hard as there is freeaim in it.

Free aim gives you a feeling as if there is mouse acceleration as the visuals on the screen dont feel like they match your movement. However i think the advantages outweight the disadvantages. Thats my only gripe against feeaim.

Tripwire doesnt think in my window perspective and their reasoning makes some sense as well. In case of my perspective of the game the gun should be slightly off to the right of my screen as im righthanded and would put the gun at my right shoulder. http://pics.roladder.net/52c4dca315aed1c6b3be2ed973615d01.jpg

However that would still be horrible for the single fact that you lack vision on your right then, so i prefer to keep that thing center .

 

[LemoN]

What i hate from freeaim is that the movement of your sights is not lineair anymore.

Aka you know that generally moving your mouse X centimeters means turning X degrees. Making it possible to snap shoot something and making things feel natural. So the visuals and the thing your doing for your instince wont match up, in the same way that bayo stabbing got pretty hard as there is freeaim in it.

Free aim gives you a feeling as if there is mouse acceleration as the visuals on the screen dont feel like they match your movement. However i think the advantages outweight the disadvantages.

I'm not talking abotu freeaim, I'm talking about freeaim in ironsights.
Wich are 2 entirely different things.
I love RO:Ost's freeaim system and think that it should stay exactly that way.

 

[Zetsumei]

i'm talking about freeaim in ironsights as well. Considering the thread is about that but some of the same disadvantages you get with melee fighting are there as well. And those are my only issues with it.

 

[dogbadger]

Not that im saying this is the best option or should be copied, but RnL mod has lowered freeaim, ironsights freeaim and fixed ironsights ( with a slight zoom)
It works quite well, but you have to select 'next/previous position' like scrolling thou weapons - if there was more flexibilty in the way you could assign keys it would be better.
Phaps HoS could differentiate beween quick ironsights to raise your weapon to fire in haste - and a deliberate, arms locked, IS position with the zoom for sharpshooting?

 

[LemoN]

OK, now thats a rather good idea actually.

When in normal ironsights mode you have freeaim, but in a way smaller area than from the hip. (put your hand on the desktop and draw a rough circle around it, thats around the ammount i mean)

When in concentration mode you have no freeaim at all.

 

[REZ]

It sounds like a good idea to have all of those choices, but it really gets in the way when you have to cycle through all of them in a desperate situation, which is what dogbadger touched on.. maybe if each of them could be set to their own button.. that way the player could choose whether or not he even wants to keybind them all in the first place. You could bind them all or simply bind only the ones you want.

 

[Floyd]

OK, now thats a rather good idea actually.

When in normal ironsights mode you have freeaim, but in a way smaller area than from the hip. (put your hand on the desktop and draw a rough circle around it, thats around the ammount i mean)

When in concentration mode you have no freeaim at all.

I could be wrong, but I think that is where the "breathing" comes into play.

I think TWI got it pretty close to right in ROOST...in two ways.

#1) When you first bring you gun to your shoulder, the gun and sights are aligned and pretty much go "linearly" where you put them. Imo, this is as it should be. Anyone who has done any sporting clays shooting, duck hunting, "free hand" trap shooting can tell you that (the more they practice and use their shotguns) when they bring their gun to their shoulders, it is positioned correctly and it is pointing where they are looking. As they are soley focused on their targets, they almost do not even see their sight picture. (I know, I know...shotguns and rifles are not the same, but the concept is.)

#2) If you hold the rifle to you shoulder (unrested) for too long, it begins to sway. One has to bring it from their shoulders and then back up. This, too, pretty well mimmicks life. Sure its aggravating at times, but that is indeed what will happen.

I like both aspects of that system. For snap shooting, its all about muscle memory, reflex, and skill. In game and out. I hope they don't interject some uncontrollable variable into the mix. Its one thing to not be able to control one's own motor functions and another to have no control over what the computer thinks you should be doing.

I never have liked the "holding your breath" feature. Let me qualify my next few comments by saying that I haven't shot competively in years and was never trained in the military. But what I was taught from pros on the competitive circuit was to breath naturally. We were taught to never hold our breath. Holding one's breath had a habit of introducing your heartbeat and nervous twitches into our sight picture. I had an instructor on the prone rifle course that would literally stand by my side and tap my leg whenever he saw me hold my breath. (Interestingly enough, this was a German instructor I had while in Davos, Switzerland in the early '70's.) Things may have been different in WWII training and/or may be different now. I don't know. But its one of those things that I hate about some fps's.

Having said that about the breathing feaure, from what I 've seen in the videos, it does appear that TWI has again found a sort of happy medium. It allows them to bring in the correct "zoom" (which I don't really care for but understand the thought process behind it) and provide a player level of control to natural gun sway. But again, when I "snap" shoot, I sure hope that I am able to bring the sight picture on target quickly and with very little "fighting" of any introduced "free aim".

 

[Ermac]

In real life, I can't move my rifle those sort of ways portrayed in a video game and still keep a good sight picture. How can you keep a sight picture with a gun that has independent movement from your head?

 

[Fedorov]

I'm with Zets in this one