FIsticuffs and Holster

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Vonreuter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2006
280
7
0
First of all, I was talking about a generic melee attack, so the animators would only have to do one animation. To me it would seem weird if a man without a gun, facing a man with a gun, would simply punch him. It just doesn't work... I'd rather see him make a full blown attack with every resource he has, not with a precision punch. If he wants to win, he needs to stay close and keep the gun away from his face with any means he has at hand.

And yes, attacking a man with an MP40 or even a rifle from a distance would and should be madness. I'm talking about those situations when you're in a corner, your gun is shot away, and a guy steps right in front of you! You're within kissing range, and he has an SMG!

Running isn't an option and on the Eastern front neither is surrender (never in computer games... a shame) so kill kill kill! All that can save you now is a red haze in your eyes and a final suicidal attack with every resource nature granted you. I'd like to have that option then.

So no, I'm not advocating for powerful melee attacks and jumping kicks so that people would run around bashing each other. It's a game with guns, so shooting people should be the preferred option. Any unarmed melee attack, if implemented, should take minimal time from the devs to create, not a month of combo-building and another of animating kickboxers.

The helmet thing was just an example of what desperate people can do. I don't really want it in this game. :D
 

Cluase Von Wittybrain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 22, 2006
132
2
0
Well just elaborate on my situation in the trench.

I was running down to stop the capping fo the AT psotion..but hadnt relised they had advanced so far.

I ran striaght into him..bang..no weapon..you cant jump out of the trench and by the time i had turned around he would have nbeen loaded....seriously he was loading as soon as he shot.

I wasnt about to scourage around for my weapon..probably should have...usually in this situation i just use the suicide grenade if time permits if i have them in stock...but nope.

It is the first time i have felt truelly helpless. ..i may as well have been holding my dick.

Even if he shot me...which he probably would have...i still would have like the feeling of just going toth and nail...Wanting to kill the guy who nearly..or tried to kill me. Fate in the game was good to me..and gave me a second chance...the developers didnt by atleast letting me try and punch kick and bite and pull hair out of it.

Even if it is a useless feature...it still feels a bit more realistic..ie: the chances of nocking someone out with fist would be like 80/20 chance...but you would still feel as though you would have a chance.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
Deathsai said:
No, you're going to surrender or die. A rifle butt or bayonet will make quick work of you. Real life CQB isn't like Saving Private Ryan, where people lose their weapons and get into 20-minute knife fighting scenes.
Rifle isn't actually the easiest thing to fight with.. And in cqb situations like clearing trenches many times there was no time to capture prisoners. You can't stop or pass enemy soldier without securing him and in that situation securing means killing the guy. So if you face the enemy in that situation you either do something or die. Ok, I admit that you have know what are you doing if you are about to go with bare hands or knife.

And btw don't underestimate productions like Saving Pvt. Ryan or Band of Brothers etc. There's lot of backround research done when those were made although adding a bit drama and show..

[5.SS]Strother said:
PGD03, unless your within about 2-3 steps of the guy I would be running for cover. I don't care who you are you arn't going to rush a guy with an mp40 with your fists lol. You won't even rush a guy with a bayonet attached, or even without a bayonet he could smack your face in pretty quick. This isn't even taking into account the size of the other man, he could be a freaking ox who could throw you through a door. I'd say there is a 90% chance someone in that sitatuion is going to flee and not fight, that is if you wanted to actually survive the war.
Yes I meant distances you can reach in second or so in trenches and comparable situations. And when you are running towards an armed soldier and loose your weapon it takes less time to rush forward then pick up your weapon or turn around run to cover which might be longer distance away then your opponent.

Getting upper hand is based on suprise and the other guys fixation to use his rifle. You have very good possibility to survive if get your hand on enemy's weapon and you know what to do and he doesn't. Average guy starts to pull and twist the rifle to get it free from your hands like there was no other option and that's what you want to happen. Now you can strike your palm up his nose, jam your thumb in his eye, hit him in the throat, step on his knee, knee him in the groing etc and those places are vulnerable no matter what size you are.

Well of course if he knows his close combat tricks he'll kick you to hell right after missing his shot and you parrying his bayonet. But other choice would be that he sticks his bayonet in your back while you are running away or picking up your gun. If the guy has autofire capable weapon in his hands you are most likely dead, no matter what you do. In war there is or was no guys circleing each other and reloading or poking each other with bayonets like in game.. Well my rambling has nothing to do with the game anyway :D

But isn't it funny that many times you have to poke bayo twice in you opponent unless you aim for the head (in the game)? One could suppose that puncturing a lung and stuff or even heart with the thing would take the guy out...
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
[5.SS]Strother said:
Why dont we just get a combat knife? That would solve the problem without making this game some wierd Grappling patty cake game.
Or you could boot the other guy in the groin :D

I guess all kinds of fighting without firearms would require a lot of work to add. I'm happy the way it's now. If I drop my weapon I hope I dont get shot before I get to pick it up again. Spreading the ammo around is bit shitty but if there's nothing they can do then we just have to settle for that.
 

raydude

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 5, 2006
56
0
0
Comrade Commander, what should I do if the germans shoot the weapon out of my hands?

Simple, Pasha. Get grenade, pull pin, and run toward the German. You will be remembered as a Hero of the Soviet Union.
 

Cluase Von Wittybrain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 22, 2006
132
2
0
raydude said:
Comrade Commander, what should I do if the germans shoot the weapon out of my hands?

Simple, Pasha. Get grenade, pull pin, and run toward the German. You will be remembered as a Hero of the Soviet Union.

Umm i had no grenades...that is the point..i had nothing...NOTHING.

Otherwise i would ave done as you suggested....see im one to run for enemy tooth and all..so to speak.

I just want a extra tooth and all Weapon..it does not have to be reliable...infact it barely has o be able to kill easily...as long a s i have a wepon..be it arm legs or Knife..i dont care.. i want some form of absolute last resort weapon. a feather duster for all i care..just something!
 

[5.SS]Strother

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 19, 2006
2,506
0
0
West "By God" Virginia
I try to play the game as if I'm the actual person. If my gun gets shot out of my hand I'm not going to rush with a grenade, I'm going to dive for cover and pray for the best. I don't think in real life you are going to rush the guy tooth and nail, if anything you are going to stand there and pee yourself as he puts the iron sights on your eyeball.
 

Vonreuter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2006
280
7
0
And btw don't underestimate productions like Saving Pvt. Ryan or Band of Brothers etc. There's lot of backround research done when those were made although adding a bit drama and show..

While removing unwanted parts, such as the thousands of British and Canadian troops that stormed the beaches of Normandy alongside the Americans... Omaha beach wasn't the ONLY beach, unless we are to believe these "productions".

Look at the old war movies and you may notice that some have old Shermans as Tiger tanks.. Now that's what I call research!

I try to play the game as if I'm the actual person. If my gun gets shot out of my hand I'm not going to rush with a grenade, I'm going to dive for cover and pray for the best. I don't think in real life you are going to rush the guy tooth and nail, if anything you are going to stand there and pee yourself as he puts the iron sights on your eyeball.

Well then you must keep your head a lot lower next time and buddy up with your friends. Real people don't fight like our avatars in RO. As long as the sh*t-in-your-pants element is not in the game, any melee system is as "realistic" as spawning soldiers.

Why dont we just get a combat knife? That would solve the problem without making this game some wierd Grappling patty cake game.

Mmmyes, this would be simplest, but there's one major problem: it adds one more weapon to your repertoire...

However, a compromise might be the best solution: the combat knife does not exist until you lose your weapon and that's when your character automatically switches to his gut-opener. This would also eradicate the problem with suicide Pashas = the odd fact that the character switches magically to grenades as soon as he loses the weapon resulting in voluntary and involuntary suicide bombings.

This solution would catch two birds with one stone - not bad!
 

raydude

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 5, 2006
56
0
0
Vonreuter said:
While removing unwanted parts, such as the thousands of British and Canadian troops that stormed the beaches of Normandy alongside the Americans... Omaha beach wasn't the ONLY beach, unless we are to believe these "productions".

About "Saving Private Ryan" - it was a movie. Which means that the movie has to make sense from a "moviegoer" point of view. Showcasing the Omaha beach assault made sense because it introduced you to Tom Hanks character and those in his company. Imagine there was a scene where we suddenly cut away to Sword Beach and show some British units landing there.

What would be the point of that? You would never see the British characters again for the rest of the movie! Every film critic from here to Sevastopol would say "What the hell was the point of that scene? I never see those characters again. Bloody horrible editing that was!" Its not that it was unwanted, its because that scene would not make sense in the context of the movie!

If "Saving Private Ryan" was a documentary about the Normandy invasion then yes, I would agree that showcasing British units made sense. But it was a movie about a Ranger company landing on Omaha beach that suddenly gets tasked to exfiltrate a paratrooper deep behind enemy lines. Where in that summarized plot would it be appropriate to insert a scene about the British landing?

That would be like taking the movie "A Bridge Too Far" and asking why they didn't show Patton's attempts at continued offensive operations. It doesn't make sense from the point of the movie!
 

BobCobb

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 24, 2006
289
0
0
I agree. If your weapon is shot out of your hands you should pull out a knife. Certainly if I was on the Eastern front, I would have found a knife and made good use of it. But it should not be available if you still have a rifle. Noone in their right mind would use their knife if they had a perfectly good rifle with bayonet attached.

Hell, the russians can even have homemade shivs. Anything is better than being completely unarmed after you lose your weapon. Since you can't tackle the guy and tear his throat out with your teeth, a knife is the next best thing.
 

Deathsai

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
845
0
0
PGD03 said:
Rifle isn't actually the easiest thing to fight with.. And in cqb situations like clearing trenches many times there was no time to capture prisoners. You can't stop or pass enemy soldier without securing him and in that situation securing means killing the guy. So if you face the enemy in that situation you either do something or die. Ok, I admit that you have know what are you doing if you are about to go with bare hands or knife.

And btw don't underestimate productions like Saving Pvt. Ryan or Band of Brothers etc. There's lot of backround research done when those were made although adding a bit drama and show..

Are you trying to be a hypocrite? First you say that rifles aren't the easiest things to fight with, and yet rifles are used frequently in Band of Brothers and, yes, Saving Private Ryan.

A lot of background research...like how a platoon of US Paratroopers and a squad of Rangers repulses an entire SS Division. And how a lone sniper saves an entire beachhead. I'd put more faith in Band of Brothers, but zero in Saving Private Ryan.

Let's think about reliable sources. I have, not once, ever read an account that says that someone was succesful in close combat with their bare hands.
 

Zuberlan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 10, 2006
116
0
0
I think punching is the best option. When the weapon is shot out of your hands you instantly go into unarmed combat. Pressing the attack button punches and holding it down lets you charge punch. Pressing the alternative attack button lets you grapple the enemies rifle away. Having something to protect yourself is better than just standing there acting dumb doing nothing to protect yourself. At least this way you will have a chance if all grenades have been exhausted and the weapon you had is gone. I assure you in CQC, running away and exposing your back to the enemy will just get you shot in the back and many soldiers irl knew this concept and so would rather try to take the weapon away from the enemy than exposing their back and getting shot. Let me ask you this: If you are within kissing distance to the enemy will you expose your back and get shot or will you grab the enemies rifle and wrestle him to the ground with it? ;)
 
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BobCobb

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 24, 2006
289
0
0
Let's think about reliable sources. I have, not once, ever read an account that says that someone was succesful in close combat with their bare hands.
My uncle put a Kabar through a VietCong's throat in Vietnam.

If it happened in Nam, when the weapons were more powerful, then it certainly happened in WW2.

I don't think bare hands would have happened as often, but I'm sure it did. Fact is, if there is going to be proper mellee combat it needs to be with a knife, so this discussion is a waste of time.

And Saving Private Ryan may not be the most realistic movie ever, but it gets pretty close to the grit and intensity of war. And those are the words of WW2 veterans.
 

raydude

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 5, 2006
56
0
0
Deathsai said:
A lot of background research...like how a platoon of US Paratroopers and a squad of Rangers repulses an entire SS Division. And how a lone sniper saves an entire beachhead. I'd put more faith in Band of Brothers, but zero in Saving Private Ryan.

While SPR may take certain liberties because its a movie, it still is surprisingly grounded in several little historical details. For example, we know from the movie dialogue that Tom Hanks is a captain of a Ranger company and that they are landing at Omaha Beach. Also from movie dialogue we know that their immediate objective is an exit called "Dog 1".

I direct one to the official army website here:
http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/100-11/ch2.htm#Plan

Under Plan of Assault Landings:

"The Provisional Ranger Force of two battalions (six companies each), attached to the 116th RCT, had special missions on the right flank. Three companies of the 2d Ranger Battalion were to scale the cliffs at Pointe du Hoe, three miles west of the main landings, and take the fortified battery positions. One company of the same unit would land just west of the 116th near Exit D-1 and assault the enemy positions at Pointe de la Percee."

I point the reader's attention to exit D-1 (Dog 1) and the fact that one ranger company was assigned to land near there. Yes, SPR has a lot of historical inconsistencies. But at least they didn't make up a Ranger company landing near Dog 1 exit out of thin air.

And no, the sniper didn't save the entire beachhead. He opened up the little subsection of a beach sector. But, paralleling that, in real life Omaha beached was beaten, slowly, by little bands of soldiers opening up their own subsection of the beach.
 

Crucis

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2006
45
0
0
You know ...we've been talking about punching after your weapon has been shot outta your hand ...

...first you would need a functioning hand to punch with ...and would you not want to punch with your "weapon" hand. When your weapon gets shot out of your hand, you will notice on your body damage diagram that your hand is red ...indicating that you've been hit there.

I know my left hook is not nearly as effective as my right upper-cut.
:D

Let's stick with what we got.
 

Hans_klempner

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2006
272
66
0
bandofbrothershelmut5qr.gif


This would do the job!
 

SOAD

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 10, 2006
377
29
0
Deathsai said:
No, you're going to surrender or die. A rifle butt or bayonet will make quick work of you. Real life CQB isn't like Saving Private Ryan, where people lose their weapons and get into 20-minute knife fighting scenes.

why wouldnt it turn into a 20 minute knife fightin scene if both men are equally matched (as they are in the film) i have to say this scene is one of the more realistic aspects of the movie.
 

[5.SS]Strother

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 19, 2006
2,506
0
0
West "By God" Virginia
The throwing helmet scene is quite funny but to be honest if I was in that situation I would just run. I'm kind of curious why none of the other 200 germans in that street bothered to shoot at that big american dude.
 

Nite

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 5, 2006
68
0
0
Didnt all soldiers have some kind of a knife. Isnt it like a basic tool that one needs. I think you should have a bayonet of some type even if you're not a rifelmen. i guess the problem would come if you had attached it to your gun and it was shot out. The question would be whether or not they could still have a knife. If my gun was shot out of my hand at close quarters Id pull out a dam knife and try and stab the guy or surrender, but chances are if he already shot at me hes not going to stop. And it would be useful. Say they shot the gun out of your hadn with there last bullet. While they tried to reload you could stab them.