Firebug: The unbelievably powerful perk no one uses

[Undedd Jester]

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=552689&postcount=19[/URL]

Chainsaw recieves a headshot multiplyer of 0.25% as that screenshot proves in Entalgers post. Hitting the body while stood up is nion impossible due to the constant damage the revving of the chainsaw does unless you crouch, which mkaes the chainsaw even less manouberable than it is already./

Scrakes being reistant to exposive is readingh the wiki, and my own expierience. I remember as a level 6 Demoman in a 6 man suicidal game I faced a scrake that was partially hit by 2 pipebombs, double banged with 4 grenades and 6 grenades from the M32, and hit by 1 M79 grenade. Still took a support specialist with a AA12 to drop it. Maybe I wasn't as accurate as I thought, but even with poor accuracy that lot would be enough to drop anything short of the Patriarch.

Sure someone could find something in the SDK regarding it if they tried.

 

[Monolithos]

Fear that. Yes you are correct.

All melee weapons have a default 1.25 HeadShotDamageMult
Except Katana (that got 1.1) and chainsaw (that have 0.25(!))

All ranged weapons have a default 1.1 HeadShotDamageMult
Except crossbow (6.0(!)), M14EBR (2.0), Winchester (2.0) and Shotgun (1.5)

 

[Evilsod]

M32 DO check for head shot hit box damage. I wonder if that is an oversight/bug.

M79 (and flame thrower, pipe bombs, frag nades...) does not.


mm... wonder if that means LAW can score head shots as well... lol

Yes, they deal less damage the further away from center you are (and players reduce damage based on range from center twice as fast as zeds)

Was that on a solo or a six player suicidal fp, was it done as commando or demo spec (which rank?) and was it done with M32 (which can score head shots) or M79?

It was Sandbox solo Suicidal spawning as a lvl6 Demo and changing to Commando for the health bars. Pipebomb would 1 hit a FP and almost kill a Scrake assuming they exploded beneath the spec, otherwise the FP would survive too.
M79 launcher did roughly 1/3 of an FPs health (sure i wasn't aiming near the head anyway) but as it murdered me after the 2nd shot I'd have to try a bit more to see if a 3rd shot killed it, which it should if its doing 900 a shot, though perhaps the impact damage is classed as small arms fire and is reduced so you're infact dealing 800 a shot which means it'd survive 3 grenades?

Fear that. Yes you are correct.

All melee weapons have a default 1.25 HeadShotDamageMult
Except Katana (that got 1.1) and chainsaw (that have 0.25(!))

All ranged weapons have a default 1.1 HeadShotDamageMult
Except crossbow (6.0(!)), M14EBR (2.0), Winchester (2.0) and Shotgun (1.5)

God knows why the wiki lists the Xbow as 7.8 these days,i thought it was still 6 too.

 

[Crusad3rMKII]

Except that berserker can handle itself very well on suicidal, or.. at least better than firebug.

Can't say I agree, but it's a matter of opinions in the end. Sufficient to say that I don't have more problems playing one perk rather than the other.

 

[Olivier]

Ok i'm confused. 1. Incendiary Grenades still do not kill instantly anything bar the most useless of enemies

Scrakes

 

[EricFong]

Scrakes

However i play in Solo suicidal, i can take out scrake with 35-50 napalm as level 5 firebug(without being harmed) and 100-150 napalm to take out flashpound(Being harmed)

 

[9_6]

That's adorable but try that on a 6 man game.

Scrakes

What

 

[mamoo]

I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more burna-boyz after the next update.

 

[Olivier]

That's adorable but try that on a 6 man game.

What

Hmmm huh?

 

[Monolithos]

I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more burna-boyz after the next update.

Why is that?

 

[EricFong]

New stuff for Firebug, not sure what is it.

 

[Evilsod]

However i play in Solo suicidal, i can take out scrake with 35-50 napalm as level 5 firebug(without being harmed) and 100-150 napalm to take out flashpound(Being harmed)

That's adorable but try that on a 6 man game.

Exactly. Your looking at 2-4x the hp depending on the scale (Scrake is ~4x, FP around 2.5x) so are you seriously saying empty 1/4 of your ammo or possible 2/3 of it to kill a SINGLE enemy is good?

Firebugs need to stop thinking they can do anything but cause minor damage, seriously even on solo Suicidal it takes a Clot maybe 2-3 seconds total to die using a single burst of fire which is far too long when any Commando/Sharp can drop it in 1 bullet instantly. A firebugs only saving grace (atm) is a large clip great for panicking.

I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more burna-boyz after the next update.

It would have to be 1 hell of an update.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Firebugs need to stop thinking they can do anything but cause minor damage, seriously even on solo Suicidal it takes a Clot maybe 2-3 seconds total to die using a single burst of fire which is far too long when any Commando/Sharp can drop it in 1 bullet instantly.

Yes it may take 2-3 seconds for 1 clot... however it also takes 2-3 seconds for a firebug to ingite and kill groups of 4+ clots in the same fraction of time, whereas a commando or sharp has to shoot each one individaully. I sure you can see that this takes longer overall.

That is the firebugs role, DoT and crowd control.

I personally have always hated when people rag on the firebug when they don't understand how to play them. I think I would happily say you raise some valid points regarding the firebug as you would play it. However when played as how myself, Nutter, and other true Firebugs play the class these issues are negligable at best. That is the point of this guide, to show people how the firebug should be played.

I'm not one to cause waves in a thread but seriously stop trying to prove the firebug is a poor class. I accept that your experience with the perk has led you to think its poor, but that doesn't mean Firebugs are bad by default. I myself am really poor with the Commando and get killed on a regular basis when I play as one, that is just a reflection on my style of play. Hit and run classes like Berserker, Medic, Firebug suit me down to the ground.

True the Firebug can't take on a Scrake or a Fleshpound singlehanded, and thats the way the game should be. If people can't see that they need to go back to their level 6 M14 Sharpshooter normal games, cause thats pretty much what they are trying to turn the game into.

 

[Evilsod]

Seriously you want to argue statistics against all the other perks?

These 4 clots, if they're in a line you wouldn't even need to go iron sights to drop all of them in a moment using the 9mm, you could also do the same with a shotgun, etc. Ignoring the burn time is ridiculous.

Ok 4 clots is rather arbitrary so what if its a more varied selection? The only advantage i'd give to the Firebug is if theres a big push coming or if your team messes up the FP and chaos ensues which lets everything push forwards. In that situation (assuming the Firebug didn't think wasting 160 fuel on an FP who will barely feel it was a good idea) the firebug would be great to keep the horde at bay to thin it down or kill it while everyones busy. Chances are so could a Support or Demo though.

Other perks simply are more beneficial in more situations.

Its role is DoT/Crowd Control, unfortunately DoT is worthless in this game in most situations in team play and Crowd Control can be applied to any class with the right weapon so long as the guy playing it is playing that way.

 

[9_6]

Actually firebugs can take everything that isn't a pound on by themselves if they have a katana.

 

[Undedd Jester]

You still aren't getting the point, the Firebug is cheap to maintain, can easily gun foes down, has little issues reloading, and is a always on demand crowd controller. If you look at the other crowd controlling classes, no class has the sheer spread of the firebug.

Firstly note your "If they are in a line" arguement right off the bat proves this point. Most of the time enemies aren't in a line, and there is always the chance the player could miss his headshot, taking extra seconds to get the kills. Furthermore aiming at gorefasts, clots, bloats, sirens, crawlers and everything requires aiming on different firing planes. The firebug is unaffected by headshots and can shoot around the middle of the body and still have the desired effect.

Furthermore we aren't ignoring burn time, what we are trying to get through to you is the firebug can deal DoT to conserve ammunition, or he can control burst them down in a second flat. And that isn't just 1 enemy in a second flat, it can take down large numbers of foes with ease. This is the skill of the firebug, identifying when its fine to let things burn out and when its better to cut them down.

In regards to other classes performing better: -

- The demo runs a much higher risk of wounding himself on things like stalkers and gorefasts due to their suprise and sneak abilities. He creates a lot of smoke which greatly inhibits his view, and even on the M32 his reload times do create problems with continual specimen pushes. The firebug performs better at long range, but can at least still function at short range.

- The support specialist has an issue with ammunition, and will be hesistant to waste a shell on the likes of a crawler or a single clot. Furthermore groups of stalkers and crawlers create difficult planes to use his penetration due to the variance in specimen size.

These are problems the Firebug doesn't have. What you aren't understanding is DoT isn't the Firebugs only tool, and the entire point of this guide is to teach players how to play it. As I have said, just because you do not know how to play it, doesn't make it a weak class.

I'm not having a dig dude, but it is seriously frustrating when people bash the firebug, without a true understanding of his tactics and abilities

 

[Evilsod]

You still aren't getting the point, the Firebug is cheap to maintain, can easily gun foes down, has little issues reloading, and is a always on demand crowd controller. If you look at the other crowd controlling classes, no class has the sheer spread of the firebug.

Cheap? Ok what class but Demo/Support isn't? Comparing to what they'd make from kills anyway.
On-demand crowd controller? What class isn't? Assuming they bided there time with the right gear, any class can be a crowd controller.
Spread? Demo? But seriously outside a narrow corridor (where i have never questioned its effectiveness at sustained burst) he can't cover the area that well and will still be reduced to things burning slowly if he tries to cover too much.

Firstly note your "If they are in a line" arguement right off the bat proves this point. Most of the time enemies aren't in a line, and there is always the chance the player could miss his headshot, taking extra seconds to get the kills. Furthermore aiming at gorefasts, clots, bloats, sirens, crawlers and everything requires aiming on different firing planes. The firebug is unaffected by headshots and can shoot around the middle of the body and still have the desired effect.

Extra seconds? The 9mm gets 15 round clips and 240 ammo, it won't take much more time to shoot each specimen in the head than it would for the Firebug to turn his aim to burn them all ensuring he's hitting them so as not to waste ammo. The only 1 i'd really agree with is Crawlers who take 3 shots since hitting the head is a pain, though obviously since the SCAR is still a 1 hit kill its irrelevant.

Furthermore we aren't ignoring burn time, what we are trying to get through to you is the firebug can deal DoT to conserve ammunition, or he can control burst them down in a second flat. And that isn't just 1 enemy in a second flat, it can take down large numbers of foes with ease. This is the skill of the firebug, identifying when its fine to let things burn out and when its better to cut them down.

I *know* DoT isn't his only tool, but the fact remains its his primary function and he sucks because of it. Burning specimens with a constant stream eats up ammunition but is quite effective, though you can't do it often. And seriously though, you line things up? Well gee whizz i'd never of thought of that... oh wait its how you play a Support and any class with an Xbow.

- The demo runs a much higher risk of wounding himself on things like stalkers and gorefasts due to their suprise and sneak abilities. He creates a lot of smoke which greatly inhibits his view, and even on the M32 his reload times do create problems with continual specimen pushes. The firebug performs better at long range, but can at least still function at short range.

Against continual pushes i agree. But then against continual pushes the Firebug will be getting through his ammo too. Mostly though if you're getting hit by lots of big pushes then team has bigger issues than whether or not the Demo can handle it. After all theres another 5 (4 including Medic) to handle it.

- The support specialist has an issue with ammunition, and will be hesistant to waste a shell on the likes of a crawler or a single clot. Furthermore groups of stalkers and crawlers create difficult planes to use his penetration due to the variance in specimen size.

SCAR, end of. And you can just crouch and shoot at crawler height...

These are problems the Firebug doesn't have. What you aren't understanding is DoT isn't the Firebugs only tool, and the entire point of this guide is to teach players how to play it. As I have said, just because you do not know how to play it, doesn't make it a weak class.

This isn't a guide on how to play firebug. Its a few different ways on how to fire the Flamethrower, as i said before its the equivilent of telling the Sharpshooter to point his 9mm at a specimens head and fire.

Actually firebugs can take everything that isn't a pound on by themselves if they have a katana.

Well yes... but who can't?

 

[Monolithos]

OMG Guys... Evilsod does not like playing firebug. And he think they are not as good as some other perks in the game. Nothing you write will make him change his mind.

Evilsod. We get that you don't think firebugs are as good as some other perks, but some people like playing firebugs. Let them. Nothing you write will make them change their mind.

4 pages of the same **** now. Please drop it. mmkay?

Trying to win arguments on in internet forums is like participating in the special Olympics. Even if you do "win" you are still a retard ;-)

 

[nutterbutter]

OMG Guys... Evilsod does not like playing firebug. And he think they are not as good as some other perks in the game. Nothing you write will make him change his mind.

Evilsod. We get that you don't think firebugs are as good as some other perks, but some people like playing firebugs. Let them. Nothing you write will make them change their mind.

4 pages of the same **** now. Please drop it. mmkay?

Trying to win arguments on in internet forums is like participating in the special Olympics. Even if you do "win" you are still a retard ;-)

That's why I stopped responding to him in this thread. Almost every question he asked I covered in the first post. The rest of his posts were effectively "firebug sucks." It makes me wonder why he even posts in this thread. Debate, discussion, and disagreement are always a good thing, but if a thread is about a specific thing, why would someone continually post just to say that specific thing sucks?

 

[EricFong]

That's why I stopped responding to him in this thread. Almost every question he asked I covered in the first post. The rest of his posts were effectively "firebug sucks." It makes me wonder why he even posts in this thread. Debate, discussion, and disagreement are always a good thing, but if a thread is about a specific thing, why would someone continually post just to say that specific thing sucks?

Simple: He need a life more than we do...