Firebug Perk refinement

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infntnub

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I just wanted to add to this thread that I'm still holding out hope for the return of incendiary rounds.

Even if it's not a passive change to the 9mm, maybe there are other ways to reintroduce it into the game?
 

Lorkenpeist

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infntnub;n2264781 said:
I just wanted to add to this thread that I'm still holding out hope for the return of incendiary rounds.

Even if it's not a passive change to the 9mm, maybe there are other ways to reintroduce it into the game?

Yes me too! I want my incendiary rounds! I miss my MAC-10 sniping so bad and I want it back in some form. I think a perk skill would be perfect for that.
 

taiiat

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Dec 4, 2010
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perhaps Firebugs' Melee Weapon should be something else as well then, something silly like a hook blade that 'injects napalm or some space magic and causes Enemies to melt from the inside.

and i'd totally go for a Flare Revolver again, but perhaps a little bit less nonsensical looking (and being balanced this time). Explosive Incendiary Flares?
 

Kittenmittens

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taiiat;n2264873 said:
perhaps Firebugs' Melee Weapon should be something else as well then, something silly like a hook blade that 'injects napalm or some space magic and causes Enemies to melt from the inside.

and i'd totally go for a Flare Revolver again, but perhaps a little bit less nonsensical looking (and being balanced this time). Explosive Incendiary Flares?

I'd love a flaming weapon that at least has a chance of igniting enemies on fire with a hit. Hehe.
 

Ryno5660

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Okay, here is what I think of the new FB tree as it currently stands.

EDIT: I've updated a couple bits just to add a suggestion or two I think would be cool.

L5 - both good choices, hard to pick. Straight up double ammo or more damage, tough choice! How tough the choice is depends entirely on what that 35% damage applies to. If that applies to impact, splash and afterburn (all fire basically) then it's a great start and tough choices.

L10 - Again decent choices here, BBQ duration sounds fun but it only actually sounds impactful if the "Bring the Heat" damage bonus applies to it. Ground fire is cool, I never tend to play that way though so I'm focused on the duration here. The slowing effect makes this a tough choice, though like I say I'm not one to shoot the floors much.

my suggestion: Duration should be given to groundfire and the slow effect be given to either BBQ or napalm. The reasoning is the slow doesn't need to be paired with the extra damage whereas a longer DoT would greatly benefit from a slow.

L15 - There's a bit of a problem here. This looks pretty much the same as it did before. Shrapnel was Pyre is now Firebomb - I'm assuming this is balanced so no worries there. Napalm sounds the same though, duration or not. Let me put it this way - If anyone picks Napalm, I can promise you it is solely for duration, which in turn isn't good enough.

My one main wish with FB as a perk was to be able to choose the other level 15 skill - no firebombs or shrapnels just a burny dancy time. Napalm however, even if it flawlessly spread fire to whole hordes alone, only does the basic afterburn rate. Napalm needs to do something else to keep up, maybe strengthened panic or a vulnerability debuff; Something which feels like you've just upgraded to top-shelf nightmare ammo. In my opinion how Napalm is handled is the crux of how good this remake will be.

My suggestion: Napalm, whether it can spread fire or not, should have something to work alongside the longer burn time. Again, the slow effect from groundfire would be quite good here and also fitting of the name "Napalm". My other thought on it was perhaps either a 10% vulnerability to on-fire enemies or an increase in panic power/duration. That last one would work nice with a slow effect!

L20 - Nice choices and a good idea, get stuck in or try and keep back. Good choices, range should probably have a little something to compete with heatwave however. Maybe a much less frequent or lasting stumble from further ranges or on ticks of fire? Just spitballing. Otherwise good choices, good idea. Happy to see the ugly splash damage gone!

My suggestion: Heatwave is a great tool for keeping stuff away from you and others but range alone can't really compete with that utility, considering a large portion of fighting is closer to heatwave-ranges. Range is nice but it needs something to keep them back at that range a bit more for it to be useful. Though, if BBQ or Napalm applied a slowing effect instead of Ground Fire I can see range being an equal to Heatwave!

L25 - It's no secret I am not a fan of the final skills being basically RNG but I can deal with these. Both sound nice, the vulnerability/damage one sounds like it'd be short-lived and not have too much application in ZT, unless it includes everything already on fire and not just what you're shooting. If that is the case then yes, these are 2 good choices (for ZT skills anyway). The infinite ammo one sounds fun to be fair.

That's my bit! In summary: Most of it is good, duration sounds okay but fire needs to do more I think, and the core of this being a good rework is making Napalm a stronger skill. Zeds on-contact spreading fire is not good enough to contend with Firebomb I'd say, and needs a stronger effect than that to stay relevant - And really, one of the only things I want out of firebug is the non-shrapnel skill to be relevant.
 
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DeadPlayer123

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I guess I am some rare player that thinks firebug is very ok the way it is now, using flames it can create a wall of fire delaying small/medium zeds from passing through, and MW do a good job delaying and killing big zeds. I fell its even OP right now, also some perks makes no sense, the refinement on beta seems to try to fix it, so I think its going into the right direction now.
 

CptJordy

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Firebug's biggest issue I've noticed so far is ammo. The flamethrower and Microwave gun needs more max ammo. I was thinking about replacing the starting ammo scaling Firebug gets with at least 2% max ammo per level or something because 500 ammo goes really fast especially in bigger waves and/or harder difficulties. Other than that firebug feels pretty strong. More weapons like the Mac-10 and the flare revolvers would help a lot all game because of their small weight.
 

Ryno5660

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DeadPlayer123;n2265285 said:
I guess I am some rare player that thinks firebug is very ok the way it is now, using flames it can create a wall of fire delaying small/medium zeds from passing through, and MW do a good job delaying and killing big zeds. I fell its even OP right now, also some perks makes no sense, the refinement on beta seems to try to fix it, so I think its going into the right direction now.

For me it's not that FB isn't working, it's more a case of perk skills not being very exciting. FB play with or without perk skills currently isn't that different; passive damage and reload, money saving and heatwave/shrapnel are the only exciting game changers for it. It'seems a flavour thing for me, I personally want good perk skills anot effective BBC and Napalm options.

Also when I say Napalm I do not mean zeds spreading fire on contact, I think it should changet but it does have a cool name.
 
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Escadin

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DeadPlayer123;n2265285 said:
I guess I am some rare player that thinks firebug is very ok the way it is now, using flames it can create a wall of fire delaying small/medium zeds from passing through, and MW do a good job delaying and killing big zeds. I fell its even OP right now, also some perks makes no sense, the refinement on beta seems to try to fix it, so I think its going into the right direction now.

For me, it's that firebug has the most distinct lack of "class rules" as you put in another thread. And microwave gun is just below any possible skill cap. The perk is indeed going into a better direction now but longer burning won't suffice. The entire rationale behind the perk needs to be updated and acted on accordngly in order to make this playstyle viable. That includes more than just rebalancing the skills related.
 
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taiiat

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Dec 4, 2010
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exactly, Firebug is completely capable currently, there's no problem with capability to 'use Ammo and Kill things'. it's that the way you do it is not very exciting, and very similar to using Machine Guns that look different.
 

Akimbo

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Issues:

Trench Shotgun is worthless, you're relying on the physical damage which isn't great, because burn damage is nearly worthless.

Burn damage is nearly worthless.

Range (especially on the flamethrower) is FAR TOO LOW. Make it like the Napalm FT from KF1, you could "lob" over the top of Zeds / Team mates to hit enemies behind, you could ignite them and let the burn do some serious damage before they even got close.

The flame effect on the flamethrower is rubbish. "poof poof" cotton-wool fire.

No ranged equivalent of the Mac 10

KF2 maps usually feel very cramped meaning low damage, CC burning is anti-teamwork. You're just blinding your team and creating Zeds that are staggering around and harder to hit.

Damage from Microwave gun seems extremely varied. Sometimes it will do a lot, other times it will take 3+ clips to kill a FP on Hard (tapping style).

Before the level 15 explosion Perk Firebug isn't fun to play. Your damage is very low in most cases and the best CC is to kill Zeds...making the early Firebugs role in the team a little unclear.
 

Ryno5660

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I'd agree with Akimbo's sentiment fully, only disagreeing with shrapnel making it fun (just not a fan) and the FT needing to be the napalm hose from KF1. Only reason for the second one is I just think it'd be a ton of work to reshape the flamethrower and perk skills would need to be rebalanced again around that. Otherwise I would actually really like that as long as it looked good - if it was that or Rising Storm flamethrower though I'd choose the latter every time!
 

DeadPlayer123

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Akimbo;n2265483 said:
Issues:
Trench Shotgun is worthless, you're relying on the physical damage which isn't great, because burn damage is nearly worthless..

Trench is not completely useless, you can kill SC easily with this weapon doing the blind it technique, also its an tear 2 weapon that can help you to kill gorefasts, bloats and husks ( that have some fire resistances ), I agree with you about the "Burn damage" thought, its kind of weak now, mainly if you compare it with kf1... But maybe they decrease this effect in order to general balance with other classes ? Do you guys have any suggestion in order to change firebug but not making it very OP in relation with other classes ?

Edit: Something that I miss in trench gun is the impulse effect from kf1 ( that exists in DBS but for some reason is not enabled in trench... )
 
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taiiat

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DeadPlayer123;n2265613 said:
Edit: Something that I miss in trench gun is the impulse effect from kf1 ( that exists in DBS but for some reason is not enabled in trench... )
you'll have to be more specific, are we talking about Stumble?
the Trench gun has 60% of the Stumble Power as the Hunting Shotgun has.
if we're talking about the Gun Hit reaction, Trench gun only has 26.666R% as the Hunting Shotgun has. apparently Hunting Shotgun is also the only Support Shotgun that has a Gun Hit Power at all. Vlad also doesn't seem to have a Gun Hit Power.

*shrugs*
 

DeadPlayer123

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taiiat;n2265615 said:
you'll have to be more specific, are we talking about Stumble?
the Trench gun has 60% of the Stumble Power as the Hunting Shotgun has.
if we're talking about the Gun Hit reaction, Trench gun only has 26.666R% as the Hunting Shotgun has. apparently Hunting Shotgun is also the only Support Shotgun that has a Gun Hit Power at all. Vlad also doesn't seem to have a Gun Hit Power.

*shrugs*

Nop, I am talking about the impulse effect on yourself, like DBS currently have :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqiv1aFLSg4