Firebug Perk refinement

[taiiat]

i just feel like i should quickly mention that the two sides of the Firebug Tree may perhaps do well to strongly consider choices being between mechanics that lean towards 'fire fire, kill it now!' and 'spread the love, burn everything to the ground'.
in other words, between focused DPS/situational Damage increases, and DoT/debuff, Et Cetera.

 

[Shambler]

Any chance you could make it so Firebug doesn't make life hard for every other perk? Fire is really annoying; It obscures vision, it makes zeds dance around and hard to hit, it makes it confusing to tell what is dead and it makes everything explode and kills my frame-rate. I mean, all these effects (other than explosions, what is up with that? It makes no sense) are what you would expect from fire but it's still annoying in a game.

 

[Zerginfestor]

Any chance you could make it so Firebug doesn't make life hard for every other perk? Fire is really annoying; It obscures vision, it makes zeds dance around and hard to hit, it makes it confusing to tell what is dead and it makes everything explode and kills my frame-rate. I mean, all these effects (other than explosions, what is up with that? It makes no sense) are what you would expect from fire but it's still annoying in a game.

Someone already suggested that the fire should in fact slow the zeds down, at least with Zed Napalm as a tweaked new ability, allowing not only to buy the team time, but it can also help get a bead on enemy zeds to let others open fire on them. I'm surprised anyone can have a hard time with the fire effects, since they're so toned down from KF1.

 

[damnboy]

yeah .. The fire grenade,the napalm flamethrower,the trenchgun...

 

[DoctorDragon]

As far as the weapons go and the new resistances, I think things have worked out pretty well for the Firebug so far; he still remains as one of the strongest perks. However, the current meta of Firebug is that you cannot carry both the Microwave Gun and Flamethrower at the same time, which has the consequence of Firebug players deciding whether they want to be flamers or microwavers. Flamers don't have the firepower or the ammo to engage bigger zeds, and the panic state it can inflict is more of a hindrance to your friends who are trying to land headshots and end things more swiftly, thus they must stick to sweeping up trash. The microwavers limit themselves a bit against the weakest trash, but they have way more firepower to deploy against bigger zeds and bosses.

Now I'm not saying that the Flamethrower should do more damage, but it could seriously do with something extra in terms of utility, such as inducing status effects that are beneficial to you and the team in taking down larger threats, whether it's something more constructive than panic, or even where burnt flesh enables extra damage from all non-fire sources.

So far, the current iteration of the skill tree pretty much promotes the skills based on what benefits the Microwave Gun better, because unless the player has no intention of fighting bigger zeds in multiplayer games, most Firebugs are going to choose the tier 4 for the vast majority of the time. Seeing as it's either the tier 3 or the tier 4 to choose between, perhaps the skill tree should be made so that Firebugs choose between whether they want to flame more or microwave more. I don't know for certain which skills would be better fits if current ones were heavily revised or new ones were implemented, but we should take a closer look at the current skills:

Level 5 - Well Stocked is the better choice for the first few waves and before boss wave (where you can buy MW Guns with full ammo for friends). If you aren't dying halfway/later through the game, then the other skill is an obvious switch to make. Not sure how I feel about these as part of the perk tree, it would probably make more sense to make them passives while adding skills that are more relevant throughout the duration of the game.

Level 10 - No matter what weapon people use, Heat Wave is the obvious skill here because it works against every zed and boss, and helps enormously with your survival prospects. All you're getting from Fuse is an extra 15 damage (or less depending on the resistances) which is a bad joke when you really think about it. KF2 is a fast-paced game and fire DoT does not act fast enough in terms of time or damage it deals. For whatever bizarre reason, the choice was made to add a skill which exacerbates the issue: by retaining the same pitiful level of damage and extending that time for even longer! Extending burn duration is currently not a good idea based on the simple premise that waiting for fire DoT to take its toll is not an effective way to play Firebug in its current form. If people actually want fire DoT to be a viable thing, then extending its duration is not the way to do it: it needs to roast things considerably quicker! Either double DoT damage or shorten intervals between ticks down to half a second.

Level 15 - Again, regardless of weapon, Pyre is the obvious winner here. Napalm is all about propagating the default fire DoT effect which we know is not that effective.

Level 20 - These skills I think are fine: Range works better for flame weaponry, while the Microwave Gun profits far more from Splash.

Level 25 - These skills are also fine as they are, both of them can be applied well enough to all weapons. Although Pyromaniac does make more sense for Firebugs with Microwave Guns.

So overall in terms of something more realistic and less time-consuming than just asking for KF1 weapons to be implemented, I think the best move would be to make Flamethrowers deal extra status effects to make them more viable for use against larger zeds, and also to slightly revise the skill tree (as in, do not go crazy and do a complete makeover) so that fire DoT becomes a worthy alternative to just microwaving things all the time. All it takes is just a few simple changes, and you've got a Firebug that has variety and can cope better with the faster-paced nature of the game instead of being conscripted into making the obvious choices.

 

[Ryno5660]

Agreed! Also on the idea of making flamethrower apply more status effects ane such: Great idea. I say that on the basis that any future firebug weapons will likely not be flamethrowers so your chances of "split damage" weapons (that is like trench gun, fire damage and impact damage, an incendiary rocket for example) are higher. Those kinds of weapons will likely have explosions or impact damage to help but flamethrowers just have fire damage; they should be good at applying it for the tradeoff with lack of impact!

 

[damnboy]

What is it that you guys would like to see with the new firebug perk?

 

[Greynaab]

I first took an interest in the Tripwire forums after buying into early access for KF2. I have been a multiple-times-daily-lurker of these forums to read up on all of the changes and what not. I have enjoyed (for the most part) reading posts from the more seasoned veterans and I am grateful that they still put the effort, and all of the time consuming/tedious stuff that most casuals never do.

I've played just under 400 hours on KF1. Its the most played game in my steam library. Before I started reading the forums, i thought I had a decent amount of play time... but compared to some of you here, I am still just a "git gud scrublord casual" and to an extent I agree with that statement. For the most part our group played exclusively on Hard. Filthy casuals!!! Its not like we couldnt play on the higher difficulties, we just enjoyed the tempo of Hard mode. You still needed decent aim and the enemies weren't just big ol bullet sponges. We knew we will pretty much always get to Patty and probably win. What made it fun for us was trying different strategies, camp here this wave, kite this wave, hold out on this extremely horrible spot this wave, fight to the trader then hold out this wave, what have you. It wasnt just the same old do the easiest thing possible (Cave Defense) to get from wave 1 to Boss.

I know I am rambling and will try to get to my point.
I've been EXTREMELY hesitant to post anything on these forums... It is great that some of you have this vase knowledge about Killing Floor, but it can really turn away those of us who are playing on a level much much lower than you to give any input on to what we think is fun because you are just going to **** all over them, call them Noobs, Casuals whatever, and say their opinions are not valid because they didnt put X amount of time into KF1or2 or if they never play HOE, etc...

I am not saying I am the voice of all casuals, but I felt like I could add some perspective from someone who isnt a seasoned "Pro" and give some insight on why this Perk was fun for me In KF1... and what I think could help it in KF2. We are just giving ideas and opinions on what we enjoy(ed) about the Firebug right?

The Firebug was my favorite perk from FK1. It was the First perk I level to 6 and well beyond. I loved the Firehose we had in KF1, loved how it worked and how you had to flutter the trigger to keep the stream going where you needed it to. I loved how you had to plan for the arc of the liquid fire. YOU STILL HAD TO KNOW HOW TO AIM. I know there is a lot of hate for the "Firebad" and I can understand those frustrations from players who are in a group with someone who doesnt know their role as a Firebug. Fire Panic, Fire animation, I get it ..and as a Firebug, if you knew what you were doing you didnt bother any other players. I really enjoyed the Flare revolvers when they came out. Were they OP, yes, were they fun to use, yes... but when I had duel flares, I felt like I could actually help if one of the big guys got loose or if Sharps missed his mark <--(Not very often, but it happens sometimes.) I know the Husk Cannon could do the same, and you could get some good stuns in on SC. (Hardmode Heroes) But you coudnt use the Firehose with the Husk gun, hence the enjoyment of the Flare Revolvers. The Trench gun was another that I enjoyed using, but couldnt use it with a Firehose. Mac10 was ok, long range fire DOT.


Weapons- Some ideas to make the Fire weapons feel better.

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Caulk 'N Burn
This is enjoyable for the most part, but would be even better if it would leave flaming glooping globs on Zeds or any environment that it touches. Again someone else has sorta touched on this, just giving it more attention.

Trenchgun
I really like this gun at the moment. Yes it can be underwhelming sometimes, but when you have a big guy chasing you, you just pop a few shots to his head and he will stumble around and give you, or someone else, the time to come in and kill him or run and regroup. You can also use it with the Flamethrower.

Flamethrower = Firehose
In KF2, i have had mixed feelings about the Flamethrower. But my biggest issue with it is that it is no longer a Firehose. It just kinda Farts our a flame and then poof its gone. It isnt horrible, but it just doesnt have the heaviness that it had in KF1. I'd like to see the recoil and the fluid-ness of the the original Firehose. I know this isnt a new idea/suggestion from anyone and it may have been in this tread. (I dont remember seeing it)

Microwave gun
Again some mixed feeling about this weapon, but it is enjoyable to use. I like the idea behind the gun but i think that how it is currently being used can be changed. That the stupid splash damage -shoot the ground instead of the Zed- stuff that goes on with this gun/passives needs to be reworked. Take away any splash radius that the MWG has now and make it a single target weapon. Remove the DOT effect and up the damage. Would also need to change how some passives work.






Skill Choices

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Flarotov Cocktail
Should be added to the perk passive and not be a skill choice.


Well Stocked
What it says on the can: Firebug weapons start at 60% ammo capacity at the Trader.

ON SALE!!!
Firebug weapons sold at 75% of normal cost - This number can be changed. just using as an example.

Barbecue
A nice slow-burner: Firebug weapons' Fire effect lingers 20% longer, adding to damage over time.
Rework the skill
Flash Fire- This should change to Fire (DOT) Deals same amount of damage but cuts the linger time in half. Example: 20 damage over 4 seconds to 20 damage over 2 seconds.
Number are examples and can be tweaked.

Heat Wave
Like a Georgia summer: Zeds struck with Fire at point blank range will stumble back. Zeds stumbled this way take double damage from the attack.
Example: If weapon deals 20 damage normally, it would deal 40 damage if it caused the Zed to stumble. Stumble has a cool down so this shouldnt be abused right?

Pyre
I think changing the % chance of Pyre to proc to maybe % damage done to target. Example: If you Dealt 75% or more Direct Damage (not AOE) to target when it dies, instead of 50% on kill. I am sure you can work the math out in a way so it would proc about the same as it used to with out being able to abuse it. For the damage part it should be something like- Deal a % of AOE Fire/Pierce NOT EXPLOSIVE damage to nearby Zeds based on the size of the Zed. Theory... smaller Zed will blow up for less damage than the larger Zeds. Favors the Microwave gun and Trench gun.

Napalm
Only works with Fire based weapons, not Microwave.
Stick flame: Zeds on fire will set fire to nearby Zeds and slow them by 25%. Increase the Fire effect, Duration and Light Radius, by 50% - something like this. Fire stays around longer giving more light and has a chance to set other Zeds on fire.

Theory: Firestorm vs Wide spread- shoot farther or hit more closer.

Firestorm
Increase range of all Fire weapons. Go on - you know you want to. This feels good.

Wide Spread
increase the Spread Radius of all Fire Weapons. 25% maybe? dont know would have to play around with this.




Microwave gun - Single target, Big guys vs Flamethrower - AOE Trash cleaner

---

-First two skill choices could go either way, if you are Using MWG or Flamethrower.

-Heat wave and Pyre if you are using the MWG/Trench gun

-Flash Fire and Napalm If you are Flamethrower

-Firestorm, Wide spread (dont like this name by the way) could go either way.


It wasnt my intention to make a giant wall of text. Sorry about that.

 

[Gordyne]

I want to be objective and spare the dev's time, so this may sound a bit blunt:

When I pick a firebug perk I expect to kill with FIRE, I want to see things burning and feel powerful(feeling powerful is different than being OP).
Microwave Gun is cool, but IMO seems kinda awkward when used by the firebug perk. The Husk Cannon from KF1 was also a bit strange, but at least it seemed more "mechanic" and it set things on FIRE. MWG feels more "Alien/Tech" and it doesn't set anything on fire, I would choose Husk Cannon over MWG any day.

Also:

DoT! DoT! DoT!

It doesn't matter if KF2 is a bit more fast paced... Increase DoT damage!

If you pick firebug and are "gimped" if you choose to kill zeds with FIRE, then KF2 simply failed at delivering a firebug class.

 

[infntnub]

This past weekend is probably the most I have played firebug since the shrapnel change (which initially turned me off from wanting to play it a bit).

I have to say, as far as ability to clear trash goes, a 25 firebug w/ a flame thrower and CnB on a Suicidal 6 player team does its job amazingly well.

To go along with some other suggestions, I just wish the FT was more useful against big stuff - but I guess that would likely turn the weapon into OP status?

If buffing FT isn't an option the only thing I could really think to experiment with is maybe tweaking the weight of either the FT or MWG? Then again, would being able to carry both of these be considering OP? I'd be intrigued to see how it plays out.

Then picking between the splash and range perk skill actually becomes a decision worth thinking about.

 

[damnboy]

i enjoyed the distance it could reach

 

[MrRogersBestNeighbor]

Any chance you could make it so Firebug doesn't make life hard for every other perk? Fire is really annoying; It obscures vision, it makes zeds dance around and hard to hit, it makes it confusing to tell what is dead and it makes everything explode and kills my frame-rate. I mean, all these effects (other than explosions, what is up with that? It makes no sense) are what you would expect from fire but it's still annoying in a game.

+1
The panic effect in particular makes it pretty annoying. It shouldn't cause zeds to panic as frequently as it does. In a lot of cases, rather than helping the team, it hurts the team because they'll panic and spread out right into the team (which it's hard to aim at them AND you aren't sure if they're going to die or not), they survive, then people will be attacked by random zeds they didn't know were still alive.

For that reason, I generally don't like playing with Firebugs.

I also find the perk to be the most boring and least rewarding perk to play. The playstyle is fairly dull. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Ryno5660]

+1
The panic effect in particular makes it pretty annoying. It shouldn't cause zeds to panic as frequently as it does. In a lot of cases, rather than helping the team, it hurts the team because they'll panic and spread out right into the team (which it's hard to aim at them AND you aren't sure if they're going to die or not), they survive, then people will be attacked by random zeds they didn't know were still alive.

For that reason, I generally don't like playing with Firebugs.

I also find the perk to be the most boring and least rewarding perk to play. The playstyle is fairly dull. But maybe that's just me.

That is fair enough, I can empathise with that. I will say however that this leaves limited options when tackling this - My personal opinion is that there should be skills that allow for others to cause more damage on an enemy while it's in panic state to offset the headshot difficulty. It's either something like that which makes people actually like fire panic or the other option is weakening firebug for the sake of everyone else. I do not like this option for obvious reasons.

On the other hand, if you're shooting fire-panicked trash and upset because you're not getting reliable headshots on it then all I can say is pick targets which aren't about to die, spread your team out and use your time more effectively.

If it's big stuff you're having trouble headshotting through panic THEN it's an issue with your FB and you should just let 'em know you're going for head health. With burning trash though I literally don't see a problem, you'd help your team more if you were killing healthy/newer targets as opposed to ones which are dead anyway.

There is a degree of empathy here but also a degree of "deal with it" - Honestly, seeing through fire and keeping tabs on what's going on through that visual chaos is easy enough when you put some effort into adapting. I mean you can see through bloat bile right? It's tricky but you learn when you've been puked on enough. If you cannot adapt to your teammates regardless of perk then you are not being as good as you can be.

As for zeds spreading out and losing track of them...Keeping track of your enemies even when out of sight has been a standard skill since the first shooters, everything being on fire just makes it...a little bit trickier maybe? Identify where your frontline is and don't be there if it is a serious issue for you.

Honestly I can agree that these things could do with looking at but at the same time many FB complaints like these ones can be fixed by the player themselves taking 5 minutes to improve these skills.

One more point: Despite my avatar I give FB no more time than the other perks unless I'm solo. My current staple for online play is SS or Mando and I have played alongside more than a few novice firebugs. Maybe it's my experience playing FB but even as I saw fire and panic everywhere it never caused me to miss a shot, only I did. Panic is a preset animation just like stumble and once you've seen it a few times you'll know when to shoot, I was able to maintain Rack 'em Up shots on burning trash.

You can either take a few minutes to learn these things and boost your ingame spatial awareness, we can hope this rework offsets these issues or we can bury firebug so deep nobody wants to use it/forgets it exists. I don't see this issue being resolved with a "win-win" outcome unless this rework is cleverly done and naturally I don't want my favourite perk being buried into obscurity for reasons like this.

 

[Gordyne]

The only suggestions I can think of regarding fire and panic chaos is:

- Shorter panic time on FP but making him return to his UNraged stance after panic;
- Shorter panic time on Scrakes, making them UNraged for 1-2 sec after panic(if they were already raged).
- Maybe reduce panic chance on big zeds?
- Don't know if it's possible, but render a "less obstructive" version of fire FX if you're not a firebug.

 

[Reiku]

The only suggestions I can think of regarding fire and panic chaos is:

- Shorter panic time on FP but making him return to his UNraged stance after panic;
- Shorter panic time on Scrakes, making them UNraged for 1-2 sec after panic(if they were already raged).
- Maybe reduce panic chance on big zeds?

If you do all of that then it's just a big nerf to firebugs against large zeds entirely if they become one of the last ones standing in multiplayer and in solo play. Ammo for them on HoE is already hurting once you have more than 2 players in the game after wave 6.



-Make the explosion damage/AoE from Pyre do something again; clots and crawlers literally don't die to it if there is an in-game foot of space between zeds. All it does now is launch the surviving zeds towards players if the explosion happens behind them.

-Increase DoT, decrease burn time by 1 second

-Decrease distance required between zeds to trigger Napalm along with the above suggestion and it'll compete with Pyre

-Pyromaniac needs some fixing as firing at near speed during zed time with the MWG the AoE doesn't seem to apply the same amount of damage, it's more like equal to 1 fuel's damage worth per click which means you're wasting the other ~3fuel.

-Arsonist (along with both of Support's Zed time skills) requires a commando to utilize it fully otherwise you only get the first mob to explode because of how zed time affects MWG's damage from what I'm seeing. Maybe change it to be similar to Demo's Nuke ability and apply a medium radius fire pool on the floor where the zeds exploded that last about 5~8 seconds. Or you could go even further than make it so that zeds that die from flames has that and the ones that die from microwave damage will explode with radiation that damages in a burst of AoE rather than a pool.

-Make crisping slow zed movement again, this would really help in KF2's HoE increased movement compared to KF1 where it really only helped on large zeds and Pat. -5% movement+attack speed maybe, -10% if you want to be REALLY nice and aid every less mobile perk.

-On crisping bosses, make it so that the crisping will wear off after 15~20seconds and needs to be reapplied again, this way less mobile perks can outrun Hans at least once every other cycle of his melee attacks. Crisping bosses would require ~10 total seconds of actual burn and not fire damage and cannot be refreshed to keep a constant crisp effect on them; you'd have to wait until crisp wears off to restart the burn counter again.

 

[damnboy]

nice post buddy

 

[Escadin]

Oh noes, a wild "nice post buddy" appeared (again). Quick run away or throw a pokeball...


Are there any news on this / medic / hoe feedback threads?
Are you (tripwire) still following them or did you run off to your workbench?

A WWAUT for this would be awesome!

 

[Gordyne]

If you do all of that then it's just a big nerf to firebugs against large zeds entirely if they become one of the last ones standing in multiplayer and in solo play. Ammo for them on HoE is already hurting once you have more than 2 players in the game after wave 6.

-Make crisping slow zed movement again, this would really help in KF2's HoE increased movement compared to KF1 where it really only helped on large zeds and Pat. -5% movement+attack speed maybe, -10% if you want to be REALLY nice and aid every less mobile perk.

-On crisping bosses, make it so that the crisping will wear off after 15~20seconds and needs to be reapplied again, this way less mobile perks can outrun Hans at least once every other cycle of his melee attacks. Crisping bosses would require ~10 total seconds of actual burn and not fire damage and cannot be refreshed to keep a constant crisp effect on them; you'd have to wait until crisp wears off to restart the burn counter again.

My suggestions were to help reduce the "obstructiveness" of FB to other classes regarding Big zeds.
Of course, as you said, some buffs would be needed to get a round balance

Idk, everytime I think about a firebug class, it seems that it should be a medium-large area damage perk, not a CC perk.
I always had the impression that a Firebug should have the highest damage potential without any CC.
He could even help other classes by reducing crisped zeds RESISTANCE.

But thats just me...

 

[Ryno5660]

My suggestions were to help reduce the "obstructiveness" of FB to other classes regarding Big zeds.
Of course, as you said, some buffs would be needed to get a round balance

Idk, everytime I think about a firebug class, it seems that it should be a medium-large area damage perk, not a CC perk.
I always had the impression that a Firebug should have the highest damage potential without any CC.
He could even help other classes by reducing crisped zeds RESISTANCE.

But thats just me...

I think you're right about what the FB role should be but I think it should be both - considering each skill tree would fit one job or another, it's my thinking that one should be CC (fire is unique and possibly the most painful/panic inducing of damage tupes, it makes sense and gives firebug some unique character to their playstyle) and the other being more damage-based (as besides fire-based effects like panic there is not much more fire can do besides destroy).

 

[taiiat]

-Make crisping slow zed movement again, this would really help in KF2's HoE increased movement compared to KF1 where it really only helped on large zeds and Pat. -5% movement+attack speed maybe, -10% if you want to be REALLY nice and aid every less mobile perk.

-On crisping bosses, make it so that the crisping will wear off after 15~20seconds and needs to be reapplied again, this way less mobile perks can outrun Hans at least once every other cycle of his melee attacks. Crisping bosses would require ~10 total seconds of actual burn and not fire damage and cannot be refreshed to keep a constant crisp effect on them; you'd have to wait until crisp wears off to restart the burn counter again.

Crisping having some sort of debuff again (whether it be taking increased Damage from Fire, increased Damage period, some sort of CC, or something else) - i'd buy that for a dollar!