Firebug Perk refinement
- Thread starter Munk
- Start date
w_turner;n2257097 said:
i think it's primarily out of principle, because both of the ones i mention are things Firebug would strongly desire.
a 'Skill' that is only more Ammo, while may be useful in conjunction with another Skill, on it's own is not very useful. what i think would be more useful there, would be Magazine Size (not that there should be a Skill that's just Magazine Size), but it's a Passive already.
the choice you made there is a carrot stick, or a handful of different carrot sticks.
i might like splitting to two different sides. then choose between say, Enemies on Fire move 30% slower for -25% Duration, or Enemies burn for 75% longer.
I don't think much about the Firebug tree, I think it's a fun perk, a bit less so since the Zed Shrapnle got balanced.
I just want to place a small gameplay suggestion that could be used.
What if the Zeds currently being burn, slowly becomes brighter? Think when you heat up something, it turns yellow-ish and grow brighter until it falls apart.
What if the amount of panic incap currently affecting the Zed are indicated by how much the light up? So you can control when a FP or SC Panics, or maybe use it to indicate a Stackable DoT from the firebug?
Just a thought..
I just want to place a small gameplay suggestion that could be used.
What if the Zeds currently being burn, slowly becomes brighter? Think when you heat up something, it turns yellow-ish and grow brighter until it falls apart.
What if the amount of panic incap currently affecting the Zed are indicated by how much the light up? So you can control when a FP or SC Panics, or maybe use it to indicate a Stackable DoT from the firebug?
Just a thought..
Does tap firing even work anymore? Pretty sure they fixed those damage spikes ages ago. Or did I miss something?
Cause I don't like the MWG either. Maybe less ammo consumption would be a nice start. It eats through its clips like no man's business without killing trash effectively.
But then again I'm not sure whether to aim at their head or in front of their feet (with more splash damage activated).
Cause I don't like the MWG either. Maybe less ammo consumption would be a nice start. It eats through its clips like no man's business without killing trash effectively.
But then again I'm not sure whether to aim at their head or in front of their feet (with more splash damage activated).
Actually tapfiring still provides extra damage with the flame weapons too just as they did when FB arrived.
Yeah I'm not too sure what more I can say about this really, as long as the perk is strong and "not a weak link" when reworked and all the perk skills are useful/work as intended then I am a happy bunny.
Yeah I'm not too sure what more I can say about this really, as long as the perk is strong and "not a weak link" when reworked and all the perk skills are useful/work as intended then I am a happy bunny.
Dr Pepper;n2257183 said:
Read the patch notes. Support has been constantly adjusted to fit into the new meta after every major patch. It even got it's skill tree rearranged once. Medic has seen far less attention. Actually so did Firebug.
TheUndying;n2257202 said:
Both these exact questions have been answered in detail in this very thread twice already.
I would like firebug a lot more if it was more about applying DoTs to zeds. Right now most of the damage is in the spray, not the DoT, and I feel that this makes the perk very "Hold down mouse 1 to win" rather than a perk that requires at least some strategy.
Moving more of the damage into DoT would also make perk skills like the one that extends DoT duration and Napalm be a lot more useful (right now they're pretty much useless to me at least. I never feel like burn alone kills anything).
My only other idea for improving firebug is to make the weapons more centered around spraying longer lasting ground fire, allowing a firebug to lock down multiple choke points moving back and forth to keep fire on the ground. Although I realize this could cause performance issue (players could fill an entire large area with ground fire).
Moving more of the damage into DoT would also make perk skills like the one that extends DoT duration and Napalm be a lot more useful (right now they're pretty much useless to me at least. I never feel like burn alone kills anything).
My only other idea for improving firebug is to make the weapons more centered around spraying longer lasting ground fire, allowing a firebug to lock down multiple choke points moving back and forth to keep fire on the ground. Although I realize this could cause performance issue (players could fill an entire large area with ground fire).
I'd like the flamethrower to have more utility over the microwave gun somehow. At the moment, every firebug NEEDS a microwave gun by the end game, usually paired with the trench gun. But the problem is, neither of these weapons fulfill the dream I want as a firebug. The microwave gun doesn't even set enemies on fire, and its ammo is so limited you need to save it for the big zeds.
But as a firebug, I want to spray flames over a crowd of zeds, watching them all drop one by one. That's what it was like in KF1, and that's what I feel a firebug should be. I feel like they should excel at killing crowds of smaller zeds, but be weaker against single larger opponents. Yet the microwave gun completely reverses that, it's only useful against single targets, and the flamethrower in its current state isn't powerful enough to give a different option.
Basically, I think the perk should emphasize laying down crowd control. Firebugs need a different option than just single target lockdown with the microwave gun. They need to be able to create sort of 'areas of denial'. I spray flames in this general direction, zeds are in trouble. Again, I think their strengths should be melting crowds of trash zeds, not frying single large zeds.
But as a firebug, I want to spray flames over a crowd of zeds, watching them all drop one by one. That's what it was like in KF1, and that's what I feel a firebug should be. I feel like they should excel at killing crowds of smaller zeds, but be weaker against single larger opponents. Yet the microwave gun completely reverses that, it's only useful against single targets, and the flamethrower in its current state isn't powerful enough to give a different option.
Basically, I think the perk should emphasize laying down crowd control. Firebugs need a different option than just single target lockdown with the microwave gun. They need to be able to create sort of 'areas of denial'. I spray flames in this general direction, zeds are in trouble. Again, I think their strengths should be melting crowds of trash zeds, not frying single large zeds.
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sprech41;n2257362 said:
All you just listed works flawlessy at the moment. I tried him and damn, hes as strong as the new demo perk. They cant touch you, not even scrakes. Deals decent damage to trash and kills them easily.
Firebug is a solo perk now. He can solo a whole area by himself. Talking about HoE 6p.
Hes a very strong perk with good perk weapons. What he needs are new interesting skills, but no damage type of skills. And I dont want to see a firebug killing big zeds alone.
FoolishNinja;n2257376 said:
I'd say damage perks are something we should have but mainly on the basis that the weapon itself is highly damaging, if it was less damaging in general but boosted largely by damage perks you could probably equal it out.
Ryno5660;n2257397 said:
ye but what about offperk then?
If they add damage skills to firebug, then the cc must be toned down.
Firebug was always the red-headed stepchild in KF1 and I'm glad in KF2 he's a pretty good perk. Obviously a bit too good, considering the nerfs. After the most recent update and the double-nerf to Zed Shrapnel I can't help but feel (as a level 25 Firebug with quite a few hundred hours put into both versions of KF) that he has become what he was in KF1. Or at least what he was before he got the lovely old flareguns. A slower more underwhelming Commando/Demo.
Zed Shrapnel no doubt needed a nerf, considering in its old state it made cleaning up small zeds far too easy. But it probably didnt need both a nerf to its chance to occur and to its damage. Zed Shrapnel gave him something unique the Commando and Gunslinger did not have that he only shared with the Demo. AOE crowd control. Matched up with Heat Wave, it made the Firebug pretty great for holding back the tides of creatures and giving his team breathing room in a way only the Demo could.
Now it happens so infrequently at its 20% chance and seems to rarely work (I have yet to see a Zed near an exploding one get knocked down) that one would think its not worth picking anymore.
Sadly thats not the case. Because Napalm outright sucks. It does. Napalm is so bad its STILL not worth even glancing at even after Zed Shrapnel was reduced to a quivering fetus of its former self. The best suggestions in the thread have been ones about DOT's doing more damage and I agree wholeheartedly.
KF2 is a fast paced game. It's pretty rare to find an area where you can light up a group of zeds then twiddle your thumbs waiting for them to keel over like an old man going into cardiac arrest. Especially when generally an extra tap of flame will kill them regardless. Slow kills just dont work. It why nobody likes to watch a single berzerker kite Hans for 30 minutes after the rest of the team is dead. And having a whole perk buff devoted to it (Fuse) is silly.
Personally what I think needs to happen is this:
- Fully Stocked now also increases Firebug's maximum ammo on all his weapons by 20%. Perhaps even higher? At the moment it just cant compete with Flaratov which is far superior because Flaratov works with Firebugs role of spewing death down chokepoints.
- To be fair both level 5 perk choices are pretty bad. Flaratov wont really help players on maps since their guns fire effects light up the environment regardless and unlike the fire patch, can move. There aren't that many dark maps and the ones that are super dark need more than just 30 seconds generally to make good use of the light. Plus the AOE is small and Zeds tend to step around it. Fully Stocked is a greedy choice but is also less useful than Flaratov.
- So get rid of Flaratov. Firebug now has a new perk passive that increases along with his base damage and fire resistance. AfterBurn Time. 3% per level for a maximum increase of 75% longer afterburn time at level 25. Afterburn damage increases DOT damage by 1% per level for a maximum increase of 25% more damage per tick. This affects molotovs and his other flame-based guns. Basically old Fuse made into a leveling passive.
- Move Napalm down to a level 5 skill to compete with Fully Stocked. They both save ammo in different ways. One by making Zeds flame each other so you spend less ammo needing to light up a whole group and play passively, the other by giving you more overall ammo to spew around with aggressively. This assumes of course Napalm can be made to do what it claims to do, which at the moment it doesnt really.
- Because Fuse's old talent is now the Firebug's passive, Fuse now has a new thing it does. Fuse causes Zeds to slow down PERMANENTLY based on how much fire damage they've taken. (max slow 25% cap) Zeds hit with fire now also leave fire on the floor behind them for a second that burns other zeds that walk over it. A bit of controlled chaos to compete with the Heat Wave. Not as instantly useful for avoiding damage as Heatwave, but still helpful to support your team with. Especially when the Scrakes and FP's start coming out.
- Heat Wave is perfect and glorious as it is because its an instant panic button and a great way of keeping angry large zeds off you and your team for a few precious moments. Hence why I changed Fuse so much because let's be honest theres 0 reason to use current Fuse when Heat Wave exists gives you a free brief stun on demand with seemingly no cooldown.
- Zed Shrapnel gets its old badass damage and some range back and has its chance to trigger raised to 25% from 20% (no more stumbling or knocking down zeds on explosion. Just aoe damage.) Can cause chain reactions of explosions like it used to before the nerf.
- Zed Comet replaces the old Napalm. 35% chance for a Zed on fire to explode on death, dealing no direct damage, but lighting up nearby Zeds in an AOE and causing a stumble/knockdown/ragdoll depending on the Zed's proximity to the explosion.
- Now a Firebug can choose between causing the occasional high damage explosion that wipes out groups of trash zeds OR having a higher chance to cause a special larger explosion that doesnt have damage but gives way more crowd control. The new Fuse would work great with Shrapnel for causing supreme damage. Just as Comet would stack great with Heat Wave for major pushback against large armies of zeds. Or mix and match and have a bit of both.
- Range and Splash Damage are combined. Range and Splash damage also affect Shrapnel, Comet, Heat Wave, Fuse, and Napalm, increasing the AOE of those perk bonuses. Reduces Damage Over Time duration by 25%.
- Roast now fills the gap left by Splash and increases base damage and afterburn damage by 30%. Causes Zeds to have a 50% higher chance to panic and flail. Reduces walk and sprint speed by 25%
- By the time the player hits level 20, they should be pretty well accustomed to how they choose to play the perk. Be it doing damage in short explosiony bursts, or causing lots of slows/stumbles via sweeping across crowds or some mix of the two. The player should be feeling pretty powerful or useful at this point, but level 20 is where they fine tune their playstyle.
- Range reduces their damage over time but increases the range of all the crowd control abilities they might be using at this point. If they are playing in a supportive way on the back lines, this would be the path they'd want to choose.
- Roast gives them extra power, elevating them to a pure DPS role but comes at the cost of moving far slower and being more difficult to get out of danger. This is for the players that are good at picking their targets, knowing maps well, and murdering on the front lines. Decisions! Decisions!
- ZED TIME COMBUSTION: Zeds that die during Zed time now gib in a small explosion and leave fire on the floor similar to the molotov. These patches of fire can stack on top of each other for stacked damage. Patches have same duration as molotov and are affected by perk DOT duration bonuses.
- ZED TIME HOTFOOT: Firebug gives himself and teammates a fiery boost. They move and fire 15% faster just by being near him! And during this time are immune to Husk fire!
And there we go. Those are my personal ideas for differentiating the perk from the other cleanup-crew perks and help it feel just as satisfying and helpful as current commando / gunslinger / demo do when it comes to taking down mutants, since at the moment it feels like it falls behind.
I really feel the Firebugs skill tree should be tuned more like the Commando/Demo/Slinger/Support where players can choose between doing more damage per trigger pull or not having to worry as much about being killed or running out of ammo due to being able to knock zeds about. I hope my suggestions illustrate that but they probably dont.
Just some ideas I had knocking around in my head while I played today.
I don't think any of the perks are outright bad at the moment. Just feel like some feel way more rewarding to play and more satisfying to kill with than others.
Anyway thank you for your work, Tripwire devs.
Zed Shrapnel no doubt needed a nerf, considering in its old state it made cleaning up small zeds far too easy. But it probably didnt need both a nerf to its chance to occur and to its damage. Zed Shrapnel gave him something unique the Commando and Gunslinger did not have that he only shared with the Demo. AOE crowd control. Matched up with Heat Wave, it made the Firebug pretty great for holding back the tides of creatures and giving his team breathing room in a way only the Demo could.
Now it happens so infrequently at its 20% chance and seems to rarely work (I have yet to see a Zed near an exploding one get knocked down) that one would think its not worth picking anymore.
Sadly thats not the case. Because Napalm outright sucks. It does. Napalm is so bad its STILL not worth even glancing at even after Zed Shrapnel was reduced to a quivering fetus of its former self. The best suggestions in the thread have been ones about DOT's doing more damage and I agree wholeheartedly.
KF2 is a fast paced game. It's pretty rare to find an area where you can light up a group of zeds then twiddle your thumbs waiting for them to keel over like an old man going into cardiac arrest. Especially when generally an extra tap of flame will kill them regardless. Slow kills just dont work. It why nobody likes to watch a single berzerker kite Hans for 30 minutes after the rest of the team is dead. And having a whole perk buff devoted to it (Fuse) is silly.
Personally what I think needs to happen is this:
- Fully Stocked now also increases Firebug's maximum ammo on all his weapons by 20%. Perhaps even higher? At the moment it just cant compete with Flaratov which is far superior because Flaratov works with Firebugs role of spewing death down chokepoints.
- To be fair both level 5 perk choices are pretty bad. Flaratov wont really help players on maps since their guns fire effects light up the environment regardless and unlike the fire patch, can move. There aren't that many dark maps and the ones that are super dark need more than just 30 seconds generally to make good use of the light. Plus the AOE is small and Zeds tend to step around it. Fully Stocked is a greedy choice but is also less useful than Flaratov.
- So get rid of Flaratov. Firebug now has a new perk passive that increases along with his base damage and fire resistance. AfterBurn Time. 3% per level for a maximum increase of 75% longer afterburn time at level 25. Afterburn damage increases DOT damage by 1% per level for a maximum increase of 25% more damage per tick. This affects molotovs and his other flame-based guns. Basically old Fuse made into a leveling passive.
- Move Napalm down to a level 5 skill to compete with Fully Stocked. They both save ammo in different ways. One by making Zeds flame each other so you spend less ammo needing to light up a whole group and play passively, the other by giving you more overall ammo to spew around with aggressively. This assumes of course Napalm can be made to do what it claims to do, which at the moment it doesnt really.
- Because Fuse's old talent is now the Firebug's passive, Fuse now has a new thing it does. Fuse causes Zeds to slow down PERMANENTLY based on how much fire damage they've taken. (max slow 25% cap) Zeds hit with fire now also leave fire on the floor behind them for a second that burns other zeds that walk over it. A bit of controlled chaos to compete with the Heat Wave. Not as instantly useful for avoiding damage as Heatwave, but still helpful to support your team with. Especially when the Scrakes and FP's start coming out.
- Heat Wave is perfect and glorious as it is because its an instant panic button and a great way of keeping angry large zeds off you and your team for a few precious moments. Hence why I changed Fuse so much because let's be honest theres 0 reason to use current Fuse when Heat Wave exists gives you a free brief stun on demand with seemingly no cooldown.
- Zed Shrapnel gets its old badass damage and some range back and has its chance to trigger raised to 25% from 20% (no more stumbling or knocking down zeds on explosion. Just aoe damage.) Can cause chain reactions of explosions like it used to before the nerf.
- Zed Comet replaces the old Napalm. 35% chance for a Zed on fire to explode on death, dealing no direct damage, but lighting up nearby Zeds in an AOE and causing a stumble/knockdown/ragdoll depending on the Zed's proximity to the explosion.
- Now a Firebug can choose between causing the occasional high damage explosion that wipes out groups of trash zeds OR having a higher chance to cause a special larger explosion that doesnt have damage but gives way more crowd control. The new Fuse would work great with Shrapnel for causing supreme damage. Just as Comet would stack great with Heat Wave for major pushback against large armies of zeds. Or mix and match and have a bit of both.
- Range and Splash Damage are combined. Range and Splash damage also affect Shrapnel, Comet, Heat Wave, Fuse, and Napalm, increasing the AOE of those perk bonuses. Reduces Damage Over Time duration by 25%.
- Roast now fills the gap left by Splash and increases base damage and afterburn damage by 30%. Causes Zeds to have a 50% higher chance to panic and flail. Reduces walk and sprint speed by 25%
- By the time the player hits level 20, they should be pretty well accustomed to how they choose to play the perk. Be it doing damage in short explosiony bursts, or causing lots of slows/stumbles via sweeping across crowds or some mix of the two. The player should be feeling pretty powerful or useful at this point, but level 20 is where they fine tune their playstyle.
- Range reduces their damage over time but increases the range of all the crowd control abilities they might be using at this point. If they are playing in a supportive way on the back lines, this would be the path they'd want to choose.
- Roast gives them extra power, elevating them to a pure DPS role but comes at the cost of moving far slower and being more difficult to get out of danger. This is for the players that are good at picking their targets, knowing maps well, and murdering on the front lines. Decisions! Decisions!
- ZED TIME COMBUSTION: Zeds that die during Zed time now gib in a small explosion and leave fire on the floor similar to the molotov. These patches of fire can stack on top of each other for stacked damage. Patches have same duration as molotov and are affected by perk DOT duration bonuses.
- ZED TIME HOTFOOT: Firebug gives himself and teammates a fiery boost. They move and fire 15% faster just by being near him! And during this time are immune to Husk fire!
And there we go. Those are my personal ideas for differentiating the perk from the other cleanup-crew perks and help it feel just as satisfying and helpful as current commando / gunslinger / demo do when it comes to taking down mutants, since at the moment it feels like it falls behind.
I really feel the Firebugs skill tree should be tuned more like the Commando/Demo/Slinger/Support where players can choose between doing more damage per trigger pull or not having to worry as much about being killed or running out of ammo due to being able to knock zeds about. I hope my suggestions illustrate that but they probably dont.
Just some ideas I had knocking around in my head while I played today.
I don't think any of the perks are outright bad at the moment. Just feel like some feel way more rewarding to play and more satisfying to kill with than others.
Anyway thank you for your work, Tripwire devs.
For offperk it'd be less able to just focus everything down, at least not without using full tanks.
Hey maybe actual ammo consumption could be a passive?
And all the above is very good for FB but one thing I'd say could change; Don't like both choices being explosive options, maybe spreading CC could be the explosion choice or even damage, but not both please!
One of the main reasons I wanted Napalm to be a strong option.
Hey maybe actual ammo consumption could be a passive?
And all the above is very good for FB but one thing I'd say could change; Don't like both choices being explosive options, maybe spreading CC could be the explosion choice or even damage, but not both please!
One of the main reasons I wanted Napalm to be a strong option.