Firebug Perk refinement

[Zerginfestor]

So much this!

This whole splash damage concept is a joke anyways. Shoot the ground but not the zed itself to deal more damage... c'mon.

The problem with the firebug is that it's the wheelchair under the perks with the lowest skill ceilling but is super overpowered. That's why it's the preferred perk of players that tend to cause problems...


I'm okay with the concept of having an easy to play perk for Joshiro, when he does his live streamings. But that shouldn't consist solely of area-of-effect weapons that allow to hose down one side of the map for a full wave. The firebug should be only temporarily able to provide area denial, due to limited ammo. There should be a gun like the MAC-10 for the rest of the time, that brings the firebug better in line with what most other perks do: Actually aiming.

I guess you have no idea how Napalm works, because that's exactly what's designed to do: It's a glob of flaming jelly that cannot be put out, as it burns real slow, yet at the same time, burns real hot. As of right now, the only reason I'm seeing Firebugs at all is because of the skills (Pyre and Splash Damage HUEHUEHUE) and how the Microwave gun works (which is totally derpy as hell).

However, Flamethrowers were designed to push people out of areas or threaten them with a gruesome, painful death, and the napalm helps in this ordeal, as it can stick to the area and burn for a long while, preventing others from moving into the area. Would the firewall do more damage than actually hitting the target? No, but it's there as a way to threaten zeds to either: find a different route and take it instead, or risk going through the fire wall and possibly dying. Seems like your entire post is about how derpy is the Microwave gun, and if so, I agree. The Microwave gun, out of any fire weapon, sounds like a weapon that should be concentrating it's fire on a target, never letting go of the trigger, or moving the heat off of the target.

 

[Gladius]

I guess you have no idea how Napalm works, because that's exactly what's designed to do: It's a glob of flaming jelly that cannot be put out, as it burns real slow, yet at the same time, burns real hot.

The point... you missed it.

 

[Frost Spectre]

Starting Ammo stat should be changed into more viable one or combined with viable stat.

Example: Starting Ammo would also increase weapon mag or increase reserve ammo by same amount (Similar to Support Ammo perk)

Well Stocked also needs rework, or combined with another more "active" passive stat, could increase ammo reserves. This skill also still gives 100% ammo on spawn and from trader

Flarotov Coctail could increase the DoT sea of flame area of effect abit larger?

Barbeque bonus of just +20% feels abit short, but I dunno how long does burning last...

Napalm is as useless as it was before, dunno if it works at all, according to one topic the skill should deal direct dmg ticks on other touching zeds and set them on fire. Perhaps change it into kill skill that creates much shorter lived molotov pool of fire at the spot where the zed died. Or it could cause residual burns to deal damage and set zeds on fire (the burns that you get when you spray fire on map surfaces). And probably add another duration boost tied to this skill that stacks with Barbeque.

Firestorm in my opinion is the better skill compared to Wildfire. Perhaps combine Firestorm and Wildfire (adjust wildfire or just remove it, I dunno) and for example: create skill that is "Toxic Fuel Mixture" that reduces burning DoT but now allows Firebugs to poison zeds.

Another thought: Include actual numbers in all perk skills, some are lacking the vital information.

 

[EctoCooler]

• Less direct damage
• Longer burn times
• More emphasis on crowd control
• Bring back crisping mechanic from KF1 maybe???
• More weapon variety (Husk gun plz)

Skills:

Divide the tree more into a Damage vs Utility decision


Change "Flarotov Cocktail" to "Lightning Bug" - your fires burn brighter, illuminating surroundings better

Change "Barbecue" to a higher percentage like 60% so it can compete with "Heat Wave"

New Zed Time Skills:

"Accelerant" - Zeds on fire burn in real time and will burn for the duration Zed Time

"Fire Fighter" - Direct hits from fire weapons knockdown zeds

 

[Ryno5660]

I keep seeing people calling for burn duration - Longer burn times. That's all well and good, but remember Fuse/BBQ and how it doesn't add much. No, you need a more intense effect during afterburn rather than it lasting longer, otherwise what's the point of not just shooting it? Remember how quick this game moves.

I like the idea of fire doing real-time damage during zed-time as a lv25 skill, that sounds good.

A perk skill just to illuminate your surroundings doesn't sound at all useful and whatever the other skill was it'd be taken more.

 

[taiiat]

A perk skill just to illuminate your surroundings doesn't sound at all useful and whatever the other skill was it'd be taken more.

doing only that is cetainly meh, but doing that in a way that still gives you more Combat options, is good.


just to reiterate my version of that Lv5 Skill:

Flaratov Cocktail is meh. rather than a Flare, why not just make the ground Afterburn last a hell of a long time, and increase the Range of the light that Fire outputs?

a pool of fire that lasts, like, idunno, 30 seconds - would be a great area denial option, and would mean you can ignite a ton of Enemies in total if you use it in a chokepoint.
which sounds about par for the course since Grenades are relatively expensive compared to most Ammo, and have very small capacity.

 

[Dr Pepper]

As you guys know we've been working to refine perks as we get close to full release. What is it that you guys would like to see with the new firebug perk?

Honestly, it's getting really annoying that you guys keep ignoring the Support as it's been long overdue for a rework. It's the only perk that hasn't been touched since release.

 

[Escadin]

Honestly, it's getting really annoying that you guys keep ignoring the Support as it's been long overdue for a rework. It's the only perk that hasn't been touched since release.

Wtf. Support has been changed 6-7 times since release and while firebug&medic are still in "Investigation" -which is why we discuss them- the support perk is already being planned out.
https://trello.com/b/ZOwMRlcW/killing-floor-2-community-issue-roadmap

How can people be SO out of touch and still act up?

 

[Tagasaki]

Wtf. Support has been changed 6-7 times since release and while firebug&medic are still in "Investigation" -which is why we discuss them- the support perk is already being planned out.
https://trello.com/b/ZOwMRlcW/killing-floor-2-community-issue-roadmap

How can people be SO out of touch and still act up?

Living under a rock can happen sometimes...

 

[Durpy]

I want to build a wall...of fire. Which stays for a long while or at least 5seconds

 

[Zerginfestor]

The point... you missed it.

What was the point? Explain it, please.

 

[Ryno5660]

I want to build a wall...of fire. Which stays for a long while or at least 5seconds

Ah see this is more reasonable I think. Even with 5 second groundfire duration/10 second molotov duration it'd be quite taxing on hardare in general, but 5 seconds is a lot more viable and more than enough I'd say for a groundfire skill.

 

[w_turner]

Some ideas I've been thinking about after the resistance rework. Following several other posters, this tree rebuild follows a damage vs utility split. I also wanted to differentiate the weapons more.

-- Weapon changes

• C&B / Flamethrower can now make groundfire, a burning patch that causes damage to Zeds and ignites them. Groundfire should have a VERY unobtrusive VFX, so as not to cause all other perks to hate Firebug more. Groundfire can't cause self damage.
• Microwave does not cause afterburn or groundfire, but deals more damage per second (to a cap) the longer it is on a target. Also no longer has splash damage from the point of impact, instead deals splash damage to all enemies in a cone around the beam.
• Not to leave out the Trenchgun, it should gain increased stagger power to compensate it's lack of groundfire ability, and the loss of Heatwave.

-- Passive stat changes

• Starting Ammo -> Loaded Ammo: Increase clip size by 2% per level (50% at 25), doesn't increase max ammo.
• New stat -> Burn duration: 2.5s + 0.1s per level (5.0s at 25), used for both afterburn & groundfire duration. Damage ticks every 0.5s

-- Ability changes
--- Level 5

• Well Stocked - Increases total ammo capacity by 25% and starting ammo from trader by 50%
• Thickened Fuel - Zeds on fire move 25% slower, afterburn lasts 50% longer.

--- Level 10

• Flamebringer - Increase range of Firebug weapons by 2x
• Wildfire - Your groundfire lasts 50% longer, deals 50% more damage, and scorches Zeds who walk through it, reducing their stumble and knockdown resistance. Groundfire is now also create under Zeds hit by flame weapons, not just the ground directly.

--- Level 15

• Intense Mixture - When attacking, flames spread from your primary target to up to 3 random targets nearby (~5m), dealing 25% of your attack damage to each extra target and igniting them. Afterburn on all targets lasts 0.5x duration but ticks twice as fast and deals 50% more damage.
• Pyre - Zeds that die on fire/from fire damage burst into flames, staggering Zeds around them and making a burning corpse that deals 2x damage groundfire for 2x duration. Up to 3 corpses may be burning at once.

--- Level 20

• Firestorm - Firebug weapons deal 15% more damage and gain 25% faster firing rate when firing continuously (every shot after first within 2 seconds for projectile, after 1 second of firing for stream weapons).
• Thermite Additive - Attacking (every shot for projectile, every 1 second for stream) or burning (every 1 second afterburn/groundfire) Zeds reduces ALL non-fire resistances by 5%, up to a max of -25%. Resistance returns to normal at 1% per second if the Zed isn't attacked by fire weapons/on fire. Only one source (direct attack/burning) can tick the resistance down at a time, they don't stack to reach the negative cap faster.

 

[Tagasaki]

Ah see this is more reasonable I think. Even with 5 second groundfire duration/10 second molotov duration it'd be quite taxing on hardare in general, but 5 seconds is a lot more viable and more than enough I'd say for a groundfire skill.

It's not that taxing really, it's just 2d sprite texture. I'd say go for 30 secs.

 

[Escadin]

snip

Now that's not all I had in mind but damn you made some really good suggestions! Though, flamethrower and C&B already create groundfire as oppsed to microwave gun so I don't see how that is a "weapon change". Anyway, skipping the suggestions you adopted (obviously in agreement here):

I'd prefer starting ammo skills to disappear entirely for the sake of first wave balance alone (not that we end up with KF1 style where one perk is the obviously superior choice for first wave). Still, adding a MAX ammo increase to well stocked can admittedly turn this skill around and setting it (more ammo) up against burn and groundfire duration (ammo efficiency) is a very fair choice, imo.

Secondly, I'm especially intrigued by the range vs additional fire persistance choice! It just strikes me as a particularly fair but hard choice and it really differentiates playstyles. Honestly, I think it's one of the top suggestions so far.

I like intense mixture even though it is basically napalm if it actually worked. Faster tick rate, however, is simply an necessary recognition of the game's pace and I'd be glad to see Tripwire recognizing this although it clashes with the intensity of fire incap for now. On the other hand, pyre is a skill that depends on you getting the last hit which I still find odd for a perk that is mostly defined by how many assists it gets(same with shrapnel right now).

Firestorm vs Thermite Additive is just perfect imo (given tapping doesn't require a fraction of the fuel holding does). Not what I would have personally wished for but absolutely acceptable nonetheless!

 

[Lorkenpeist]

snip

Very good suggestions! I think I would be much more excited to play your version of firebug than the current one. I especially like the skills that improve ground fire. It would be awesome to just make the world burn and watch all the zeds try to make their way through the flames!

 

[taiiat]

Thickened Fuel - Zeds on fire move 25% slower, afterburn lasts 50% longer.

Intense Mixture - When attacking, flames spread from your primary target to up to 3 random targets nearby (~5m), dealing 25% of your attack damage to each extra target and igniting them. Afterburn on all targets lasts 0.5x duration but ticks twice as fast and deals 50% more damage.

these two basically cancel each other out to total up to free upgrades across the board. it doesn't help that Thickened Fuel is the obvious choice.

 

[w_turner]

these two basically cancel each other out to total up to free upgrades across the board.

That is true, however as a utility Firebug, I feel your job is to debuff the zeds to help your team. Thickened Fuel helps you do that by slowing all Zeds on fire, and keeping them slow for a longer period so you can ignore them.

If you also take Intense Mixture, you're dealing more damage while the zeds are lit up and igniting more of them at once, but they're slowed for 50% less time than if you didn't take it (5 sec vs 7.5 sec at level 25). The utility Firebug should play a more puff & run role, trying to slow/stagger/weaken the horde so that others can clean up or re-position as needed.

it doesn't help that Thickened Fuel is the obvious choice.

I kind of picked the % increases for skills out of thin air, so I'm definitely interested in feedback. My thinking was that Well Stocked would combo well with Firestorm, as the increased fire rate would burn ammo (haha pun) at a much higher speed.

For Well Stocked, what values do you think would make it a tougher choice? 50% more total ammo? An entirely different skill?

We could also move the afterburn reduction/damage increase to be across from Thickened Fuel, make them truly two sides of the same coin.

On the other hand, pyre is a skill that depends on you getting the last hit which I still find odd for a perk that is mostly defined by how many assists it gets(same with shrapnel right now).

Actually my suggestion for Pyre would apply to both zeds killed by fire and/or zeds in afterburn when they died, even if another class got the kill. Sorry that wasn't clear.

 

[DolphinBuffMan01]

That is true, however as a utility Firebug, I feel your job is to debuff the zeds to help your team. Thickened Fuel helps you do that by slowing all Zeds on fire, and keeping them slow for a longer period so you can ignore them.

If you also take Intense Mixture, you're dealing more damage while the zeds are lit up and igniting more of them at once, but they're slowed for 50% less time than if you didn't take it (5 sec vs 7.5 sec at level 25). The utility Firebug should play a more puff & run role, trying to slow/stagger/weaken the horde so that others can clean up or re-position as needed.



I kind of picked the % increases for skills out of thin air, so I'm definitely interested in feedback. My thinking was that Well Stocked would combo well with Firestorm, as the increased fire rate would burn ammo (haha pun) at a much higher speed.

For Well Stocked, what values do you think would make it a tougher choice? 50% more total ammo? An entirely different skill?

We could also move the afterburn reduction/damage increase to be across from Thickened Fuel, make them truly two sides of the same coin.



Actually my suggestion for Pyre would apply to both zeds killed by fire and/or zeds in afterburn when they died, even if another class got the kill. Sorry that wasn't clear.

I quite like your Firebug tree, a lot of it looks like you could make use of everything and be able to switch play styles around a bit. Which is what I love about the current Sharp Shooter tree, there are two distinct builds, with every skill (apart from zed time KD) being useful, and providing quite different play styles. Definitely the direction I would like to see it go in.

 

[Ryno5660]

It's not that taxing really, it's just 2d sprite texture. I'd say go for 30 secs.

Maybe but I'm hoping for better looking fire than that!