Fire & Maneuver Realism Mod

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Nezzer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 3, 2010
2,334
1,021
0
29
Porto Alegre, RS
@MikkOwl
6.) The player is already getting penalized in sway, recoil, reload speed, and suppression effects. I don't want to add frustrating jamms to that mix, I want people to still have fun.
What about bolting problems with bolt-action rifles? Just some random small jams that might make bolting 2 or 3 second slower like in the video I posted the other day.
 

gentrinity

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 26, 2009
229
109
0
@Firzenizer

Thanks

@2Lt.Horvath

Trick with the radioman class is that it requires a model of a radio to be attached to the back of a soldier. I can most certainly look into it since it would obviously be a good addition for the realism community. And you can pretty much count on larger maps for RO2. I know Biermann is definitely going to produce some nice maps that will be 2-3 times the size of the bigger maps right now. Also, I kinda share the same feelings about Tripwire, however, they did make their money, so I am happy for them in that regard. As a video game developer myself, I understand that sometimes you have to sacrifice certain features to make a game more profitable. I'm just happy that they provided so much code in the SDK, and when it's finally ready, this game will be a joy to mod.

@Nezzer

That's pretty hardcore, it's a feature that I really need to test out and see what everyone thinks about it. Remember, this mod has to work on a public server as well as a private server for a unit.
 

Britney Federline

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
1,174
123
0
I thought that neither the German nor Soviet army used radiomen, and so having a radioman class would be unrealistic?
 

Nezzer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 3, 2010
2,334
1,021
0
29
Porto Alegre, RS
@gentrinity Do you plan anything about spawning on your SL? IMHO it's a terrible feature most of the time, especially in Grain Elevator, Red October and Fallen Fighters. Another thing I'd like to ask you: can you create separate respawn timers for tankers, commanders and special classes? I really hate it how you destroy a tank only to have it shooting at you in 30 seconds. As for commanders and other special classes like snipers and MG'ers, I think they should be penalized for dying since their job is to stay back and give support for the main infantry.
 

gentrinity

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 26, 2009
229
109
0
@EvilKiwi436

Cool, what kind of help are you offering?

@Britney Federline

That I did not know, I've usually been in US units so I wasn't aware of that.

@Nezzer

I would definitely like to work with spawning, but that's a tough one, I can't guarantee anything. I will look into it because I do need to have a system that would work for both private matches and pubbing.
 

Comrade Kaizer

Grizzled Veteran
May 21, 2009
1,116
124
63
What about bolting problems with bolt-action rifles? Just some random small jams that might make bolting 2 or 3 second slower like in the video I posted the other day.

Because random weapon jamming penalizes players for no reason, it's a design decision that has largely been avoided for being so - unfair.

Given a few circumstances under certain conditions where players are punished in situations because of random jamming and I guarantee its dismissal will be approved by many here.
 

fireship4

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
79
2
0
This sort of mod is what im looking for to make RO a game I want to keep playing.

My requests would be:


  • MMG teams - with some sort of requirement that they stick together/mechanic for them to aid in usage of the MMG.

  • A game mode where there are no tickets, but more rounds. I don't think that this game mode will necessarily be quick either - I think people will want to stay alive (I have plenty of experience of TvT no respawn scenarios from ArmaII).

  • Together with that, enforced spawning areas for each squad that makes up the platoon so they know who they are with and can stick together more easily even on a public server.

  • Lastly maps which aren't set up to funnel people this way and that. Recreate a piece of terrain and let it be. If one side always wins then do one of the following - balance the numbers, give the weaker team easier objectives, or do nothing. The last one represents the fact that I'm perfectly happy if there are maps/scenarios where one side is likely to win. It's more realistic and I would still find it fun.
 
Last edited:

EvilKiwi436

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 26, 2011
119
98
0
What I'm also thinking is to make the sway not exxagerated, but large enough to promote tactics. It was too large in RO1, but too small in RO2.
 

Golf33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 29, 2005
922
170
0
Happy to help with testing, especially around mid December and from mid January on. I spent a few years in the (peacetime) military so should be able to give feedback on weapon handling. I would say that RO2 isn't too far off, so go subtle with the tweaks. Especially watch out for compounding effects e.g. increased basic sway plus morale plus suppression plus fatigue could result in an unrealistically crippling effect.
 

EvilKiwi436

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 26, 2011
119
98
0
Happy to help with testing, especially around mid December and from mid January on. I spent a few years in the (peacetime) military so should be able to give feedback on weapon handling. I would say that RO2 isn't too far off, so go subtle with the tweaks. Especially watch out for compounding effects e.g. increased basic sway plus morale plus suppression plus fatigue could result in an unrealistically crippling effect.

Good ideas here.
 

MikkOwl

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 15, 2009
233
57
0
Sweden
Because random weapon jamming penalizes players for no reason, it's a design decision that has largely been avoided for being so - unfair.

Given a few circumstances under certain conditions where players are punished in situations because of random jamming and I guarantee its dismissal will be approved by many here.
Different types of weapons are more or less reliable. One of the real life drawbacks of the auto-loading weapons. In the game now they are unrealistically good.

Suffering a stoppage being an inconvenience? Yes. But it happens to both sides. And it closely mirrors the limited ammunition and need to reload. Running out at the wrong time gets people killed on both sides, but most probably think it is more fun and immersive that way.

A few types of interesting malfunctions:

1. Faulty primer (duds). Cycle the bolt manually once to feed the next cartridge.
2. Failure to extract (for the self-loading weapons). The cartridge fires but does not get ejected/nor is a new cartridge chambered. Again, cycle the bolt once to clear. Depending on the condition of the weapon, this could happen almost never to almost every shot, in effect requiring the operator to manually 'bolt' it between each shot, like a bolt action rifle.

Would be great if weapon condition could be specified by the map maker / server. I.e. more problems with automatics in cold winter nights than warmer days. Maybe the troops are worn out and untrained to service the weapon, etc.
 

Proud_God

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2005
3,235
548
0
Belgium
Because random weapon jamming penalizes players for no reason, it's a design decision that has largely been avoided for being so - unfair.

Given a few circumstances under certain conditions where players are punished in situations because of random jamming and I guarantee its dismissal will be approved by many here.

Disagreed with the above. I think people who are opposed to random jamming see this game too much as an individual expierence where good kill/death is the highest goal. I see the game as a team-effort where winning the round is the highest goal. And i want to be immersed. Jamming provides immersion. Besides, Americas Army proved that random jamming works (no one complained about it, it never came across as intruding or annoying)
 
Last edited:

6S.Maraz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
118
51
0
I see jamming as a realistic addition.
Maybe some weapons could be made more prone to jamming than others (probably the semiautos at that time were rather rough and prone to jamming... that's why they were not adopted in large numbers).

This mod is becoming an awesome list of improvements to the game !

Maraz
 

Comrade Kaizer

Grizzled Veteran
May 21, 2009
1,116
124
63
Disagreed with the above. I think people who are opposed to random jamming see this game too much as an individual expierence where good kill/death is the highest goal. I see the game as a team-effort where winning the round is the highest goal. And i want to be immersed. Jamming provides immersion. Besides, Americas Army proved that random jamming works (no one complained about it, it never came across as intruding or annoying)

So because I'm against randomized weapon jamming I am therefor against team work and/or promote Kill/Death ratio hoarding? Interesting philosophy... you couldn't be any more wrong.

"AA proved random jamming worked for AA" not games in general, and even that is arguably your own perception not necessarily a fact. You can not comment of those who might just have been against it.

To everyone else overall, that's fine. Some people are going to like it and some people (including myself) are not. The reason why you don't see this feature in most tactical driven games is a testament on its own.

Its always been a pre-concept idea that sound great on paper for years for PC first person shooters and its execution regardless of the talent of those developing (or in this case modding) does not translate well under certain game play conditions.

Those conditions are going to be met more often than not with the high amount of players and it will come back to subject, that's all I'm saying. Obviously I have no internal contribution in this mod but it has my support, do as you please, but I will make my point on the implementations of this feature. That's what forum discussions are for.
 
Last edited:

Nezzer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 3, 2010
2,334
1,021
0
29
Porto Alegre, RS
I see jamming as a realistic addition.
Maybe some weapons could be made more prone to jamming than others (probably the semiautos at that time were rather rough and prone to jamming... that's why they were not adopted in large numbers).

This mod is becoming an awesome list of improvements to the game !

Maraz
That might make the loadouts even more realistic. G41 was a jam-fest, and that's why most soldiers were not fond of it. The MKB probably wasn't much different. By implementing the downside of each weapon in the game had IRL, players would choose them like real soldiers would if they could. The number of G41s would drop significantly. Of course, this feature would require serious testing.
 

Jorg Biermann1

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2011
1,031
632
0
Buckinghamshire, UK
Only reason I would want jamming was to make the G41 useless.

Another Suggestion.

- Elite Rifleman renamed to Semi-Auto Rifleman and only gets a semi auto (No choice of bolt).
- G41s taken from Squad Leaders and Commanders.
 

gentrinity

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 26, 2009
229
109
0
@fireship4

Most of your ideas are map side. And having people spawn together based on their platoon would be interesting but it would require some fair amount of coding. As to the MG teams, it's not a bad idea, since actually, if an MG is by himself, he will not have high morale, so maybe people will naturally stick together. I would need to give some kind of incentive to stick together with the MG, not a penalty.

@Golf33, EvilKiwi436

Thanks for the offer, I wouldn't worry too much about the effects being too harsh. I've played Brothers in Arms and RO1 so I know when it's too much. I'm definitely looking to keep some of the lethality but it definitely needs to be reduced.

@MikkOwl

Thanks for the input. If I were to implement weapon jamming, it will be a simple random jam that you would need to just reload again to fix. This is really a small addition I plan on adding, so I would rather not spend so much time on it, considering it's going to already take a lot of testing to make sure it's playable.

@Proud_God, KAIZER SOSA, Nezzer, 6S.Maraz

Regarding this debate, I will say that I'm definitely interested in adding weapon jamming. However, I do agree with Kaizer Sosa that it might not be very enjoyable to some people, and because of that I need to make sure to tone it done where it's not impacting gameplay too much. I love the idea that I can balance weapons a bit more so that bolt actions are a bit more reliable, thus making the disparity in effectiveness less pronounced.

@Jorg Biermann

I kinda like that idea, I don't get why we have to call them "Elite". I do agree with your assessment that leaders need the MP40. So maybe I can expand the Semi-Auto a bit more since squad leaders wouldn't be able to use it, maybe give 3 or 4 as the standard per side. I also like the idea of leveling off all weapons so that bolts are just a bit more level.
 

Golf33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 29, 2005
922
170
0
Once you get into loadouts you pretty much have to deal with historical issues one way or another.

It's a real shame the game seems to deal with loadouts more or less globally. RO1 have the loadouts to the mapper to assign, which promoted variety and some really interesting asymmetrical balance maps. The feel of the maps were very different depending on whether you were looking at an early war map with PPD40s and SVTs on the Russian side and mainly KAR98 and MG34 on the German, vs a late war map with fewer SVTs and more M44 and PPS43 on the Russian side with G43, StG44 and MG42 on the German.

Looking at German table of organisation and equipment for an infantry company reveals that ONLY the platoon and squad leaders were issued with SMGs. That's using the KStN for a 1943 motorised division... I doubt they were any better equipped the year before. Certainly the KStN for Feb 1941 didn't list any more SMGs either. The highest firepower formations I know of KStNs for are the Jan 1943 Sturmkompanie, which packed bigger squads with 2 LMGs each (but still only had SMGs issued to platoon and squad leaders), and the North Africa infantry platoon which had 9-man squads, each packing an LMG and a whole 2SMGs (1 of which was issued to the squad leader). See http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn138c1nov41.htm for these and other examples of the official tables of issue for the Germans. Naturally these would be somewhat modified in practice as casualties and battlefield reorganisation took place, and it's reasonable to think that there would be a slightly higher proportion of auto weapons than allowed for in the official tables. Balanced against that is the lower reliability of such weapons and the chance that they would be discarded as they broke down.

Not sure about the Russians.

I think if you reduce the number of semi- and full-auto weapons you'll get more riflemen in the objectives as they will be less afraid of meeting an SMG or semi-auto rifle and therefore more confident about closing with the enemy
 
Last edited: