Feeling of RS with Auto-Weapons? Realistic Reloading and Ammo Management

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h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
Sorry for my substandard English, it's my third language.

So, as far as I understand, pretty much everyone wants the unique no-spray, make-your-hits-count-feeling of Rising Storm implemented into RS. Me too. But how do you do that when virtually every weapon in the game is self-reloading or even fully auto? Decrease damage to the point where you need two or three hits to the torso to kill someone? No, that's what Call of Duty is for. Decrease accuracy to absurdly low levels? No, that's what Call of Duty is for. Well, to make it short, my answer is to implement realistic reload times and a realistic "ammo management"

What I mean by that is simple. In computer games, it usually takes the player 2-3 seconds for a magazine change and 3-4 secs for a reload. But is that realistic? Well, it is true that, while standing or kneeling, with a lot of training and modern Velcro pouches, such a speed is possible.

But which units back then had Velcro pouches?

Keep in mind that the actual sequence of actions you need to accomplish in order to change a magazine/reload is the following:

Remove magazine from weapon - (If not empty, stuff it into your belt or somewhere) - Open ammo pouch - insert new magazine - (Press bolt release/Operate charging handle) - Close ammo pouch - Continue firing

I did my basic training in the Swiss army some 15 years ago, and we had no Velcro pouches. Especially while lying it was an absolute pain in the *** to close these damn pouches. I am aware that a marine receives way better training, but three to four seconds for a reload while laying awkwardly in some jungle **** and being shot at? Really? And what's with the magazines in your RIGHT ammo pouch? How do you take them out with your left hand while laying?

So, to make a long story short: I would make reload times longer and give the player a possibility of an open-pouch, "emergency" reload. It's faster, but when you run around or throw yourself onto the ground afterwards, you might lose your magazines. Also, I would make the magazines in the right pouches more difficult to access. If the player doesn't change them to the left side, after the first three or four magazines his reloading time will increase and he will have trouble reloading while laying.

By implementing such a system, you'd make the game more realistic, more tactical (where do I reload, keep my left pouch full) and, first and foremost, you'd eliminate the problem of everyone blasting around in full auto. If your reload takes up to 10 seconds, you'll think twice whether or not flip the selector to full auto...

whaddaya think?
 

LugNut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 12, 2011
2,288
117
0
I think having to keep track of what mags are where would be over the top, but I'd be for a slower and more realistic reload time than what you normally see in most games. We have no idea of what it is in RS2 now for obvious reasons, or how they are handling mag changes at all. Tactical, Speed/Empty and Retention. I don't know what was SOP in the Vietnam war.
 
Sep 28, 2014
756
21
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USA
This is actually an excellent idea, I love it. Upping reload times would really make people think twice about just running and gunning constantly.
 

h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
I think having to keep track of what mags are where would be over the top, but I'd be for a slower and more realistic reload time than what you normally see in most games. We have no idea of what it is in RS2 now for obvious reasons, or how they are handling mag changes at all. Tactical, Speed/Empty and Retention. I don't know what was SOP in the Vietnam war.

Ok, maybe you are right, differences between left and right pouches are maybe over the top.

But from what I can tell, in Vietnam the US military used pouches which had a very similar closing mechanism to the ones we had. No Velcro or "click"-system.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20096-m56-m67-alice-universal-ammo-pouches/

Another thing is that if suppression is included again, it also should increase reload time.
 

Trotskygrad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2011
1,302
37
0
on top of corner ruins
I went out and bellyflopped with a chicom chest rig for a couple minutes today, mags stayed in if you tucked the flaps behind the mags. They should take more time to pull out though.
 

h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
I went out and bellyflopped with a chicom chest rig for a couple minutes today, mags stayed in if you tucked the flaps behind the mags. They should take more time to pull out though.

I have no idea about Eastern bloc equipment. My only experience is with these

picture below)

pouches, and as I see they are very similar to the US Vietnam-era pouches. Keep in mind that you have to go solely by touch to open and close them, because you need to keep looking in the direction of the enemy. I do not know if the US pouches collapsed, but ours did, and finding the opening in which to insert this little latch on a collapsed pouch is not something to do in a fraction of a second, especially when in prone position. And I don't think that this is much of a training issue. The parts of the latch-system are just too fidgety to use - after all, there's a reason it's not used anymore (maybe there is a Vietnam vet around who could shed some light on this?).

I know RS2 is made on a limited budget, but all you'd have to do to implement it is to make the reloading time significantly longer. Maybe when prone, it could be a little longer than when standing, and also, you could vary the time a little bit at random (sometimes a second or two faster, sometimes a little slower). Add some random expletives when the pouch is "hard to work", and there you go.
 

FishsticksII

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 10, 2014
189
2
0
Alabama
Slower reload times would be a great. Anything leading to more thought provoking gameplay is good and yes....less runin 'n gunin. It'll probably never make it though because of casual players complaining during testing.

Also, swapping between rifle to sidearm should be a much longer process as well.
 

Jagdwyre

Active member
Sep 2, 2011
564
69
28
I went out and bellyflopped with a chicom chest rig for a couple minutes today, mags stayed in if you tucked the flaps behind the mags. They should take more time to pull out though.
I was actually thinking of those rigs when I was reading this thread, hah.
 

Thom430

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 18, 2014
64
0
0
I had a thought about this as well, honestly, what I'd like to see is some mechanism for a two step reload. Have one button be the first part of the reload, i.e. dropping and storing the magazine, and having the other being inserting and chambering.

But nonetheless, adding the storing and taking out of a magazine, that should lengthen the reload to about 6 seconds I think, just as in Project Reality or Squad.

Here's an interesting gif from the latter:

http://media.joinsquad.com/2016/Mar/FebRecap/ak74reload.gif
 

PinguThePenguin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 5, 2016
13
1
0
Could effectively minimize people from emptying a magazine into one fella then moving onto the next with a 3 second reload.

A lot of people have mentioned slow (saving whatever rounds you had left) and fast reloads (dump it and move on) I reckon that could work.

The BAR reload in RS was a ***** and realistically so but I still used it as a trench clearer.
 

h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
I had a thought about this as well, honestly, what I'd like to see is some mechanism for a two step reload. Have one button be the first part of the reload, i.e. dropping and storing the magazine, and having the other being inserting and chambering.

But nonetheless, adding the storing and taking out of a magazine, that should lengthen the reload to about 6 seconds I think, just as in Project Reality or Squad.

Here's an interesting gif from the latter:

http://media.joinsquad.com/2016/Mar/FebRecap/ak74reload.gif

But what is the advantage/functionality of such a two-step system? I'm not really getting you here. 6 seconds for a reload would be the lower limit I think. If I remember correctly, we had to accomplish a magazine change in no more than eight seconds and a reload in no more than ten seconds (however I did not serve in an elite branch). Time, of course, was stopped when the pouch was closed again.

I thought a little bit more about how longer reload times would affect gameplay (besides discouraging people from using full auto mode):

- IN RS you have the "protected commander" bonus that gives you additional points. In RS 2 you could have a shortkey which makes the player yell "I need to reload! Cover me!" Players who are nearby and kill enemies which come close to the guy who is out of ammo would get "protected teammate" points. Of course, in CQB yelling out "I need to reload" would draw also the enemy's attention. So by not pressing the shortkey you would reload quietly (hence without alerting your teammates)

- Longer reload times would make it more useful and necessary to move in groups, as a team. To move through open spaces, one guy covers, one moves and one reloads..

- if prone reloads are longer than "standing" ones, you want to really make your shots count hiding in the bushes taking out enemies from a distance, even if you have a self-reloading weapon

- if taped-together magazines are implemented, you'd really feel the advantage (1.5-3 instead of 8-10 seconds...)

- you would really feel the tactical advantage of a magazine change over a reload. If you're changing your magazine, you'd always have the chance of snapping off one round at someone who suddenly threatens you.
 

h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
Never played receiver but I don't think that this much complexity is feasible in a shooter game. I'm thinking immersion. I believe we all can assume that any soldier who fought in Vietnam knew how to load, cock etc. his weapons. The point I wanted to make is that it's not very immersive when you're able to reload with the speed you'd have at a gun range where the magazines are neatly laid out on a table in front of you. As far as I can see from the ak/m16-recoil-clips, the developers are putting an incredible effort into accurate gun dynamics. So why not include realistic reload times?

Btw: Look at the solider's pouches in this picture. After low crawling a few meters through some rainy jungle mud, his magazines would be so dirty that his m16 probably would work even less reliably then the average Cauchat did. http://store.steampowered.com/app/418460/
 
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kapulA

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 4, 2006
2,238
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Croatia
Hope the devs take notice of this thread. Longer reload times would go a long way towards promoting a more tactical approach to firefights...

Also, re: taped-together mags - since I'm personally a huge hater of the levelling system, another way to implement this, without the current mainstream nonsense, would be to have weapons with taped mags available to the more veteran units (MACV:SOG or Marines, NVA elite units etc) or to squad leaders/team leaders in 'regular' units. However, since I suspect that the devs won't go as far as to completely gut the abhorrent system, I guess this idea won't bear much fruit...
 
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h��ramammi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
32
0
0
Hope the devs take notice of this thread. Longer reload times would go a long way towards promoting a more tactical approach to firefights...

However, since I suspect that the devs won't go as far as to completely gut the abhorrent system, I guess this idea won't bear much fruit...

Re devs taking notice of this thread - that's what I'm hoping, too :)

Re the level system of RS - I guess I am pretty much the only RS-player who actually liked that so I'm gonna be real quiet about it in here in order to not get lynched... (Anyways, as utek has pointed out, things seem to have turned out the way you want it)
 

kapulA

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 4, 2006
2,238
405
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Croatia
Sure, I'm fine with completely cosmetic unlocks. Oh well, guess sometimes the powers that be do listen, seems like I've become one of the bitter vets as well. Apologies to the devs, here's to hoping they prove all my doubts unwarranted.
 

Trotskygrad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2011
1,302
37
0
on top of corner ruins
with a chicom chest rig, putting the mags in the pouches with the flaps tucked behind will definitely assure retention. With true Soviet suspender belt gear, the tri-cell AK mag pouch, this doesn't work, but chicom chest rigs were way more popular than belt gear with the VC and NVA.

For americans, ALICE is pretty slow, but keeping the mags exposed for fast reloads was done by everyone with more modern gear in iraqistan.