Everyone loves a good debate... PC Gamer Article

[Proud_God]

What Cyper said, and if I may add, I'm getting negative vibes from you Cocaine. All you do is say things like "all posts beside this one suck". You constantly attack anyone criticizing the game by defaulting to your infamous 'evil, entitled RO vets want RO1-clone' rage fits. What is your contribution to this story? If you are happy with the game, be happy. Let people who are not voice their concerns.

Ps: I am not looking for any kind of lengthy discussion with you, I really do not have the energy / motivation / time for that. Let's all try to live in peace and respect here.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

To both the above posts:

Perhaps my posts have been too long to properly and concisely sum up what I mean.

1. Offer criticism all you want, there is no problem with that, if anything its what the game needs if it wants to improve

2. But please do so in a sensible and constructive manner. I.E not like most of the posts in the first half of this thread, which are just cheap shots at TWI and people like me who mostly enjoy the current RO2 experience. Both you and Cyper and many others have and do continue to make constructive criticisms, and I'm not denying that

3. Please note that just because you've made contributions to the community/ have made civil posts in the past does not entitle you to fly off the handle and start tearing into people on a whim - which for much of this thread is exactly what happened

4. My issue with Cyper is not with his goals - a more realistic game and a more unified community. My issue is with his means - getting rid everyone who doesn't exactly fit with his description of "hard core and genuine" player. I do agree that Action is pretty pointless and Realism needs some serious fixes, but i feel the solution is not to simply get rid of everything but Classic - which seems very short-sighted and self-serving.

5. I don't enjoy bad-mouth RO vets (especailly consider I played RO/DH for some 2 years my self) but some times you really need to give some people a wake up call and make them take a step back and think about what they're actually saying. Although most vets are sensible people there are few individuals at this point that are simply out to piss in everyone else's cereal.


Maybe this will have cleared my position up a bit so that we don't all tear each other to pieces in every thread.

As a side note, I do only play Classic at this point but not for the same reasons others do. I enjoyed Realism for most of my time in RO2 (almost 400 hours now) but issues like enemy weapon spawn, peripheral indicators, and the stagnant map rotations have over-time made me tired of playing. Classic is a breath of fresh air in the sense that it provides something different, not really because I enjoy it more on the whole. At this point I've waiting for TWI to allow broader customization options so sever admins can incorporate the best of Realism and Classic.

 

[Prophet*ntk]

Someone call Arty on this thread.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Someone call Arty on this thread.

TWI wanted a debate and got one.

 

[Extension7]

Well I think this thread has run it's course. It allowed some people to blow off some steam for the better or the worse. Better than having a bunch of General Discussion threads on pretty much the same topic. I do hope TWI had learned a bit from what the forum community wants and what the players in game want too.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

I don't know who you target, but I do feel hit.

To begin with, it is easy for you to throw kicks on people that barely play RO2. Because you already enjoy it. That's something that puts you in a very particular spot. Some enjoy the game, other's don't, and some (including myself) enjoy it to a certain extent. The fact that you enjoy the game doesn't make your opinions more valid but it may indeed make them more positive. It's the same for people that doesn't enjoy the game: they have a far more negative stance on the issue. The fact that you're negative doesn't make you worse than someone else it just tells that something is wrong, something is missing within the game.

I have stated various times that the only thing that matters for me is that the game stay true to it's roots. If it doesn't I really couldn't care less about what happens to the game. Give me any reason to why one should care about something that one has absolutely no interest in? It's very simple; I don't care about things that I don't care about. Now I do care about RO2 otherwise I would have left a long time ago.

I have given feedback on the progression system, map design, sound, stamina pool, weapon handling, bandage system, voices, suppression, bullet cracks, bullet ricochet, bullet impact, tracemodelling, zoom, and I also re-constructed an improved version of RO1 command system. I have voted in numerous polls, I have warned TWI countless of times with the risk of making the game more accessible. The whole reason to why I joined the board in the first place was because I felt something was wrong with the game. The first topics and posts I made WAS suggestions. I have spent countless of hours writing on this board, hunting issues in game and trying to point with my finger what went wrong yet, you seems to act like if I haven't given enough feedback.

Secondly, i don't believe what you're saying..

You say that everyone should have the game their way no matter if they want it like RO1, RO, or something in between and that forcing everyone else to play your way is absurd.

Well, this wont happen.

There is no chance that everyone will be happy. Fact is that this sort of mentality is going to harm the game even more. There is no chance in hell that you can cater to everyone. Ramm stated more or less the same thing i another thread by saying something in line with ''everyone should enjoy the game no matter if it is an action player or ro vet''. This is a fantasy. An illusion. You'd need two separate games to make this happen. This mentality is going to cause even more harm to RO and if it is taken to its limit it is going to kill RO. The sooner people realize that you can't do everything the better. And building a game with millions of ''server options'' and a horde of modes isn't going to make anything better.

The goals has to be precise and this will be proven.

I agree with you 100%.... I've agreed with some or most of the things you have posted in the past, but I think this is the first time I ever agreed 100% with you.

Dark times are upon us all

To add to what you just posted, in regards to having a game that pleases everybody and every game style.... I always thought variety and choice was a good thing, but it only works in certain situations. Situations where you have thousands and thousands of players to cater to. Right now RO2 only has a couple of hundred on most days... Worldwide.

That level of variety and catering is bad mojo for RO2 in its current state and has in fact, caused a chunk of the problems that exist now.

TW has attempted to cater to everybody, giving so many options nobody knows what to do with them or wtf is going on.

Action, Classic, Realism, and countless Custom Server settings between and beyond the three existing game modes.... not including Ranked and UnRanked Servers.

The problems you two are talking about right now already exists in RO2 and it's not speculation any more, we all can see what has happened.

RO2 started out as a moderately populated game when it first launched and despite a lot of performance / bug issues with the game at the start, the player base didn't take a very serious drop and remained not too bad (though it didn't go up by much either)

At that time there was only Relaxed Realism and Realism, which both were almost identical to one another with a few differences here and there. Then Relaxed got completely revamped and made even more relaxed.... Realism got modified a bit, Classic came along and then custom server settings expanded things even beyond all of that.

While there was a bit of a boost of players with the GOTY update..... eventually player counts started to drop by a lot and faster and faster, despite a huge amount of bug and performance fixes that came with that and previous updates.

A number of players, new and old, all started to complain that the community was divided too much between all the different modes..... new players especially were frustrated that they'd join one server that played a certain way, then joined another and everything changed on them.... again and again.

RO2 was supposed to tackle that huge learning cliff that RO1 had by simplifying things more..... but by adding all these different modes & options for new players to figure out (different speeds, weapon handling, damage, loadouts, stamina, GPS or Compass, HUD showing info, less info, more info or none at all, etc.)..... that Red Orchestra Learning Cliff suddenly turned into a Learning Vortex.

In comparison, RO1 / ROCA was easier to figure out, because no matter what server or map you jumped onto, the core gameplay remained the same, thus easier and faster to pick up what's going on.

And regarding this issue, nothing was really done about it, despite all the red flags popping up..... and people just kept dropping from the game.

Some reasons were performance, or bugs, or boredom from existing content, etc.... but I believe the main problem with RO2 for most was it's identity crisis.

You can have as many "Game Types" as you can shake a stick at..... but you Must say "This is the Game and This is the Game Mode that makes up the game's identity."

Otherwise you confuse everybody, both new and old players and people start to scratch their heads trying to figure out wtf the game is really trying to be.

If the Devs wanted RO2 to be accessable to every single game player out there in the world and give them all as many options as possible..... then why didn't they just say "Here's the UDK.... go make your own game as you want it to be" and not bother making RO2 in the first place???

That's sort of what happened already.... "Here's RO2 which is missing a number of things or we didn't get around to finishing and here's the SDK.... finish the game for us and make it whatever way you like."

So now we have the community making 98% of the maps and the community working on all the vehicles..... with Server Admins making their servers run with whatever settings their imaginations can come up with.

How does that make any sense to anybody??

 

[danh]

So now we have the community making 98% of the maps and the community working on all the vehicles..... with Server Admins making their servers run with whatever settings their imaginations can come up with.

How does that make any sense to anybody??

I think the problem is the community sees the game as unfinished whereas the devs view it as completed. In the TWI viewpoint, all the work they are doing now is a bonus for the community and not a requirement. But the community sees it as late work being turned in. That is why everyone is so angry.

In reality, many game developers don't fix bugs or update the game. I am talking about AAA games Skyrim, Fallout(3 and New Vegas), Total War (Medieval, Shogun 2, Napoleon, Empires), Company of Heroes, and many more. I have played a ton of games where the community updated the game, fixed the bugs, as well as add new content.

I am glad TWI is still trying their best to communicate with us when they can, patch and update the game, work with modders and mappers, and even play with us.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

... TW has attempted to cater to everybody, giving so many options nobody knows what to do with them or wtf is going on.

... A number of players, new and old, all started to complain that the community was divided too much between all the different modes..... new players especially were frustrated that they'd join one server that played a certain way, then joined another and everything changed on them.... again and again.

RO2 was supposed to tackle that huge learning cliff that RO1 had by simplifying things more..... but by adding all these different modes & options for new players to figure out (different speeds, weapon handling, damage, loadouts, stamina, GPS or Compass, HUD showing info, less info, more info or none at all, etc.)..... that Red Orchestra Learning Cliff suddenly turned into a Learning Vortex.

In comparison, RO1 / ROCA was easier to figure out, because no matter what server or map you jumped onto, the core gameplay remained the same, thus easier and faster to pick up what's going on.

... Some reasons were performance, or bugs, or boredom from existing content, etc.... but I believe the main problem with RO2 for most was it's identity crisis.

You can have as many "Game Types" as you can shake a stick at..... but you Must say "This is the Game and This is the Game Mode that makes up the game's identity."

Otherwise you confuse everybody, both new and old players and people start to scratch their heads trying to figure out wtf the game is really trying to be.

That's sort of what happened already.... "Here's RO2 which is missing a number of things or we didn't get around to finishing and here's the SDK.... finish the game for us and make it whatever way you like."

So now we have the community making 98% of the maps and the community working on all the vehicles..... with Server Admins making their servers run with whatever settings their imaginations can come up with.

How does that make any sense to anybody??

I do appreciate the choices that we have in the game that allow server admins to set things up they way they choose, but you are right.

Unless players move to other servers with the same settings things do feel different. Perhaps this wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were many many more players and the server choices were much greater, but as of now when and if you switch servers the settings are most likely going to be different in some way.

I can deal with that myself as I know why that is and avoid certain servers because of it. To some it must be annoying and to new players it has to be confusing.

Most likely too late to do anything about it now for ROHOS, but food for thought for any future game.

I think the problem is the community sees the game as unfinished whereas the devs view it as completed. In the TWI viewpoint, all the work they are doing now is a bonus for the community and not a requirement. But the community sees it as late work being turned in. That is why everyone is so angry.

Yes, this is part of it too. Most of the existing bugs don't bother me much but they are out there and then we have the missing features such as campaign mode and the implied free content additions (couple of new tanks etc). Players, knowing how TWI operated and supported their games in the past, expected as least some of this to be taken care of. It has been slow coming. Then John mentions in a post above that it is hard getting the crew to work on free content because of how we feel here in the forums. A sort of 'behave or we don't get our desert' mentality. Ugh...

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Then John mentions in a post above that it is hard getting the crew to work on free content because of how we feel here in the forums. A sort of 'behave or we don't get our desert' mentality. Ugh...

Would you want to devote significant time to work on content (promised content as far as I know includes MPC, tanks) for people who detest everything you do on a base level, and likely will level the same complaints once the content is delivered? Its no excuse to stop working on promised content, but the fact that the ****stew that these forums have become is having an adverse effect on the motivation of TWI isn't exactly absurd or insulting.

***-kissing isn't the solution, but pretty every time a dev posts here they get mauled as if they're the next coming of the anti-christ, I can definitely see how they would feel this way. But the content is already late, and even when they do eventually finish it, the community will do little more than scoff .

Also, I can say with certainty that churning out a vehicle or map for RO2 is a different animal from what it was in the previous titles.

As far as maps go TWI are out of touch with what the community wants and are realizing it in full now, judging by the overwhelmingly negative response to most official maps. I think at this point they figured why bother if its just going to be another point of complaint. There was a thread somewhere where a dev (I think Yoshiro) stated that there was another map in the works after Barashka, but was scrapped due the way the community reacted to previous maps

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Would you want to devote significant time to work on content (promised content as far as I know includes MPC, tanks) for people who detest everything you do on a base level, and likely will level the same complaints once the content is delivered? Its no excuse to stop working on promised content, but the fact that the ****stew that these forums have become is having an adverse effect on the motivation of TWI isn't exactly absurd or insulting.

Also, I can say with certainty that churning out a vehicle or map for RO2 is a different animal from what it was in the previous titles.

There are probably very few people here who actually detest the game, and it would be a big mistake by TWI to think that people who offer (constructive) criticism fall into that category. I'd say most people here still play the game in some form or another for varying amounts of time a week.

In any case, why would TWI stop working on content because of a small percentage of the .0001% ?

My point was that many people buy a TWI game for what they will immediately get AND for the future support and content that TWI is known for.

And your last point, true it does seem to take longer to create content as thing get progressively more complex. Still, it makes you wonder how some of these customer mappers can churn out so many new maps even if they aren't as polished as those that may be officially made by TWI (which obviously will take a little longer).

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

There are probably very few people here who actually detest the game, and it would be a big mistake by TWI to think that people who offer (constructive) criticism fall into that category. I'd say most people here still play the game in some form or another for varying amounts of time a week.

In any case, why would TWI stop working on content because of a small percentage of the .0001% ?

My point was that many people buy a TWI game for what they will immediately get AND for the future support and content that TWI is known for.

And your last point, true it does seem to take longer to create content as thing get progressively more complex. Still, it makes you wonder how some of these customer mappers can churn out so many new maps even if they aren't as polished as those that may be officially made by TWI (which obviously will take a little longer).

I think what TWI really needs is some one to read and analyze every last post here. This way genuine constructive criticism can be set apart from the general riff raff. I think assuming TWI only has time to take a cursory glance at the forums, their bleak out look isn't surprising.

Currently any map work for HOS would be at a stand-still for RS, which I still feel is a mistake.

I think TWI really set their own standards too high early on, and now can't keep it up.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but were the majority of maps in RO1 not community made as well. I mean the best were eventually included in an official map pack, but the maps themselves were not made by TWI?

 

[danh]

And your last point, true it does seem to take longer to create content as thing get progressively more complex. Still, it makes you wonder how some of these customer mappers can churn out so many new maps even if they aren't as polished as those that may be officially made by TWI (which obviously will take a little longer).

Coldsteel took about 6 to 8 months to be as polished as it is today. Bridges of Druzhina also took the same amount of time. I made the first version of Winterwald in 1.5 months working 8 to 12 hours a day. I didn't have a job or school at that time. Winterwald also took about 6 to 8 months to get rid of a lot of bugs and to polish it.

Mamayev came out at the end of May. RO2 was released in September. Also, TWI has much higher standards and they fixed and balanced the other stock maps as well. I am going to assume it took 6 to 8 months to finish Mamayev and I mean FINISHED. The custom maps released were not close to finish. They didn't even touch Mamayev after it was released. I think there was one patch since it was released.

Barashka was probably started after Mamayev in May. It was finished in December. That was about 6 months time. Like I said earlier, TWI has higher standards than custom mappers in terms of a first release. So the release of TWI maps are in line with the finishing of custom maps which take about 6 to 8 months.

I think what TWI really needs is some one to read and analyze every last post here. This way genuine constructive criticism can be set apart from the general riff raff. I think assuming TWI only has time to take a cursory glance at the forums, their bleak out look isn't surprising.

Yoshiro probably reads all of this and due to all the negative feedback he has probably been discouraged or has tuned out a lot of posts. Imagine reading all the negativity for 2 years.

People remember negativity better than positive critiques.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/y...e-than-positive-ones.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Yoshiro]

I do try and read every post in these forums and I write weekly reports to the team on the community.

I also dabble in high level design documentation based on features the community would like to see.

 

[danh]

I do try and read every post in these forums and I write weekly reports to the team on the community.

I also dabble in high level design documentation based on features the community would like to see.

How are you still alive after reading all of that.....

 

[Mike_Nomad]

There are probably very few people here who actually detest the game, and it would be a big mistake by TWI to think that people who offer (constructive) criticism fall into that category. I'd say most people here still play the game in some form or another for varying amounts of time a week.

In any case, why would TWI stop working on content because of a small percentage of the .0001% ?

My point was that many people buy a TWI game for what they will immediately get AND for the future support and content that TWI is known for.

And your last point, true it does seem to take longer to create content as thing get progressively more complex. Still, it makes you wonder how some of these customer mappers can churn out so many new maps even if they aren't as polished as those that may be officially made by TWI (which obviously will take a little longer).

Exactly!! I absolutely marvel at the game and enjoy it to no end.... Personally, If I didn't care, I'd say nothing but I DO care and offer my findings, suggestions and ideas in support of the game and TWI's future.

- - - snip - - -

Mamayev came out at the end of May. RO2 was released in September. Also, TWI has much higher standards and they fixed and balanced the other stock maps as well. I am going to assume it took 6 to 8 months to finish Mamayev and I mean FINISHED. The custom maps released were not close to finish. They didn't even touch Mamayev after it was released. I think there was one patch since it was released.

Barashka was probably started after Mamayev in May. It was finished in December. That was about 6 months time. Like I said earlier, TWI has higher standards than custom mappers in terms of a first release. So the release of TWI maps are in line with the finishing of custom maps which take about 6 to 8 months.
- - - snip - - -
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/y...e-than-positive-ones.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

OK, Positive Critique;

Mamayev is an excellent map that needs WIDER trenches to accomodate the use of going prone successfully. Players inside a bunker when it is blown are not harmed.

Barashka, a great map that brings back many fond memories needs the destructibles fixed. If more than one round in a match are played, the destructibles become indestructible. Further, the rubber-banding and stuck tanks against most anything need addressing to make this an absolutely marvelous map.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Mamayev is an excellent map that needs WIDER trenches to accomodate the use of going prone successfully. Players inside a bunker when it is blown are not harmed.

Barashka, a great map that brings back many fond memories needs the destructibles fixed. If more than one round in a match are played, the destructibles become indestructible. Further, the rubber-banding and stuck tanks against most anything need addressing to make this an absolutely marvelous map.

Two great maps that TWI added as additional content that I actually love. Just those few tweaks as noted above are needed.

 

[Choice]

John is exactly right...

He took what was the underlying reason many of us who play RO-DH-RO2-RS went searching for it in the first place, and said what needed to be said.

COD is too easy... It is not satisfying-

Oh don't get me wrong- COD is like a quick single cheese burger and a cheap fountain soda and soggy fries..

Compared to RO which is a full blown with all the trimmings Thanksgiving dinner, when it comes to satisfaction...

Oh and as for skill, its hands down RO2 over COD...

Grab 8 RO2 players, and play vs the best COD players, and they will more than likely smash them.

COD is just too easy, huge COF, laser bullet hoses, small maps, hackish perks that basically take things that people used to use in older FPS to cheat- ie Ninja, wall hacks, etc... and implement them in the game.

COD4 had a mod like Openwarfare mod which really started to go in the right direction IMO- but then when I had hoped they would continue to allow community development / mod tools in BLOPS- Activision went in the prozzie mo $$$ direction instead of making a quality game and allowing the community to add their take.

So Blops was the last COD I purchased... I played COD MW3 on the free weekend... it was total garbage, and I think BLOPS2 was obviously going to be rubbish and true to Activisions track record... even easier, even more $$$...

But at least the numbers for those mediocre titles are losing their PC base from how it looks to me.

COD is a $145 dollar joke of a FPS... one I doubt I will ever fire up again.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Coldsteel took about 6 to 8 months to be as polished as it is today. Bridges of Druzhina also took the same amount of time. I made the first version of Winterwald in 1.5 months working 8 to 12 hours a day. I didn't have a job or school at that time. Winterwald also took about 6 to 8 months to get rid of a lot of bugs and to polish it.

Mamayev came out at the end of May. RO2 was released in September. Also, TWI has much higher standards and they fixed and balanced the other stock maps as well. I am going to assume it took 6 to 8 months to finish Mamayev and I mean FINISHED. The custom maps released were not close to finish. They didn't even touch Mamayev after it was released. I think there was one patch since it was released.

Barashka was probably started after Mamayev in May. It was finished in December. That was about 6 months time. Like I said earlier, TWI has higher standards than custom mappers in terms of a first release. So the release of TWI maps are in line with the finishing of custom maps which take about 6 to 8 months.

Fair enough... 6-8 months for one person to create a polished map from scratch all on their own.

How many people does TW have for doing the same thing?

One Person??

I'm not trying to start some trash here, but the numbers don't really add up when you compare one person working on a map in their spare time (yourself) and a business doing the same thing (TWI)

I could understand if the modellers / designers were split between vehicles, maps and weapons, etc. and if they only had 1 or 2 guys doing all of this, but there has only been two maps thus far released since launch, and no additional vehicles or weapons. There was talk of a few weapons in the works and two new light tanks but that was a long time ago.

Granted, everybody is focusing on Rising Storm at the moment, so it's not like any of this will magically pop up out of nowhere in the meantime..... but if their standards are higher than a community member's standards, one would also assume their skill levels would be higher as well, thus design and development would be a lot faster & better than a community memeber's... especially since it's their day job and have nothing else to focus on but the game. Time is money after all..... so you'd expect them to go through these things a lot faster than someone who's for the most part, only doing it as a hobby.

 

[danh]

Fair enough... 6-8 months for one person to create a polished map from scratch all on their own.

How many people does TW have for doing the same thing?

One Person??

I'm not trying to start some trash here, but the numbers don't really add up when you compare one person working on a map in their spare time (yourself) and a business doing the same thing (TWI)

I could understand if the modellers / designers were split between vehicles, maps and weapons, etc. and if they only had 1 or 2 guys doing all of this, but there has only been two maps thus far released since launch, and no additional vehicles or weapons. There was talk of a few weapons in the works and two new light tanks but that was a long time ago.

Granted, everybody is focusing on Rising Storm at the moment, so it's not like any of this will magically pop up out of nowhere in the meantime..... but if their standards are higher than a community member's standards, one would also assume their skill levels would be higher as well, thus design and development would be a lot faster & better than a community memeber's... especially since it's their day job and have nothing else to focus on but the game. Time is money after all..... so you'd expect them to go through these things a lot faster than someone who's for the most part, only doing it as a hobby.

Well, after the launch of the game, they focused heavily on fixing bugs and balancing maps. That was 9 months gone from vehicles and new maps. They managed to release one map while polishing and fixing up the stock maps. Level designers also have to test maps and bug fix. After that it was summer of 2012 and that was when they launched the community map contest. They also released another update to stock maps during summer 2012. TWI went dark around the beginning of Fall after the map contest ended phase 1, so I am assuming they started some work on RS. Seeing as how they can't talk about explains why they went dark. Going by this, they would not have any time to test and implement vehicles.

As for maps, they also have to be historically accurate. I am sure there must be time for research, design, and planning. Custom maps don't involve heavy planning or research.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

... I could understand if the modellers / designers were split between vehicles, maps and weapons, etc. and if they only had 1 or 2 guys doing all of this, but there has only been two maps thus far released since launch, and no additional vehicles or weapons. There was talk of a few weapons in the works and two new light tanks but that was a long time ago.

Granted, everybody is focusing on Rising Storm at the moment, so it's not like any of this will magically pop up out of nowhere in the meantime..... but if their standards are higher than a community member's standards, one would also assume their skill levels would be higher as well, thus design and development would be a lot faster & better than a community memeber's... especially since it's their day job and have nothing else to focus on but the game. Time is money after all..... so you'd expect them to go through these things a lot faster than someone who's for the most part, only doing it as a hobby.

Yeah, I'd hate to knock the TWI mappers because I'm sure a lot of what Danh says is true and I know they had to re-optimize their release maps and then help look at the RS maps. Still it makes you wonder because it is their (full time?) job and yes they should be more proficient at what they do while there is the learning curve for much of the community mappers out there. No offense Guppy and the others...

Perhaps as Yoshiro has said, a lot of their maps have been shelved for various reasons. I think I recall Yoshiro saying some didn't test well. I was curious, were the maps too big or two small? Did they not sit well with their trusted test crowd, or does TWI not feel that the players would like them? By the players, I mean the general crowd who never gives feedback or the .0001% ( ) or both?

------

~ EDIT: Perhaps as soon as RS is released, things may speed up with regard to map releases. Of course, we won't know until the release of RS, then whether they have to tweak/optimize those maps, and then spend time possibly working on previous unreleased maps or new ones.

Come to think of it, that makes it sound like six months to a year before we see anything specific to the eastern front being released again...