EgreSS+'s July 2012 Update Resource Thread

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EgreSS

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2012
104
2
0
My little "rant" about the update here:

Spoiler!


--------------------UPDATED GUN STATS + COMPARISONS---------------------------------------


ALL TESTS CONDUCTED WITH LEVEL 6 PERKS ON TESTMAP6P or TESTMAP6P_FIRINGRANGE on HELL ON EARTH difficulty(unless otherwise noted)

Again, all damage values are for Hell On Earth difficulty, 6 man.


These might not be the MOST accurate numbers, but these are the numbers I got from my own tests. Refer to the KF Wiki if you want another source of information since information there is taken from the KF SDK.

MK23

I have did a whole morning of research on testmap. Here are my findings for this gun. The power level of the Tier 2 pistols goes from Handcannon being the strongest, to the 44 Magnum, and at last the MK23. Yes I was shocked too, but I went into testmap and did some penetration tests and decap tests. I will list a few of those tests performed


  • Husk - As level 6 Sharpshooter, 6 Man Hell on Earth. Handcannon and Magnum takes 2 shots to decap. While the MK23 takes 3 shots to decap.


  • Siren - see above, same thing.


  • Clot/Trash Penetration Test - Handcannon kills 3 clots, and can damage the 4th clot, but not decap. Both Magnum and MK23 can kill 3 clots only, but no exit bullet for the 4th.


  • Rate of Fire and Reload Speeds ( ALL PISTOLS ) Values are averages

    1. 9mm; Empty Mag in 2.6 seconds (5.77 bullets per sec) . Unperked reload at 2 seconds. Level 6 Sharp reload at 1.3 seconds
    2. Handcannon; Empty Mag in 1.9 seconds ( 4.21 bullets per second). Unperked reload at 2.2 seconds, Level 6 sharp reload at 1.4 seconds
    3. .44 Magnum; Empty cylinder in 0.8 seconds ( 7.5 bullets per second). Unperked reload is 2.4 seconds, perked at 1.6 seconds
    4. MK23; Empty mag in 2.2 seconds (5.45 bullets per second) Unperked reload at 2.4 seconds, perked at 1.7 seconds

The MK23 has a ROF that rivals that of the 9MM. But the Magnum still beats it, being able to empty its 6 chambers in less than a second.


  • Damage Values for all Pistols (Level 6 Sharp) for SC Husk and Siren

  1. 9mm HS: 53
  2. .44 Mag HS: 276
  3. HC HS: 302
  4. MK23 HS: 216

  • Damage Per Second (Lvl 6 sharp, assuming all headshots)


  1. 9MM: 305.01
  2. .44 Mag: 2070 (assuming firing at 7.5 bullets / s ) But if to empty all 6 cylinders in 1 second, DPS would be: 1656
  3. HC:1271.42
  4. MK23:1177.2

KSG-1

As per trader menu, it DOES in fact have same damage as pump shotgun and combat shotgun. I went to test on a Husk. It takes 2 shells from all 3 shotguns to decap a husk at about 2M. I also had a friend that went off perk to confirm this (hi chimiblino 8D ) . He demonstrated to me that it takes 4 shotgun body shots (offperk) to kill a siren with the pump. Then he showed me again with the KSG-1 and it also took 4 shots. The conclusion is the damage is the same. However, I also had the liberty of testing all the shotguns and their spread patterns too.


  • Shotgun Comparisons, ROF and Spread, Ammo Capacity
At close range, about 5-15M, about as close as ZEDs under normal conditions, the "high-spread" setting of the KSG compared with the spread of a reg shotgun or cmb shotgun is roughly the same. But, once in longer range, the KSG spread is might tighter packed than the all of the shotguns, AA12 included. This is what makes the KSG appeared "overpowered" because of its concentrated pellets when in fact the damage is actually the same as the regular shotguns.

Here is a comparison of the shotgun spread from a decent range. Spread setting on KSG is set to "Tight"

KSG:
Spoiler!


AA12:
Spoiler!


and Combat / Shotgun
Spoiler!


Also, here are the spread patterns up close, for pump/ combat and KSG-1 up close, with KSG on "Wide"

KSG
Spoiler!


Pump/Combat
Spoiler!


As you can see, the wide setting of the KSG-1 spreads much more up close than a regular shotgun or combat shotgun

Now, I also noted the rate of fire for each of the shotguns, and that is for their full gun capacity.


  1. KSG-1, 12 shells, comes in at avg of 8.7 seconds = 1.37 shells per second
  2. Pump Shotgun, 8 shells, avg in 6.6 seconds = 1.21 shells per second
  3. Combat Shotgun, 6 shells, avg in 1.5 seconds = 4 shells per second
  4. AA12, 20 shells, avg in 3.6 seconds = 5.55 shells per second




  • Damages (SC, Husk, Siren Headshot as level 6 support) UNSURE. NEEDS CONFIRMATION


  1. Pump / Combat: 427
  2. HSG-1: (Max I could possibly get out) 396
  3. AA12: 260
The fact that the damages are different on the head puzzles me here. I'll post my numbers here and let someone else either confirm or disapprove my finding.


  • DPS (can change if my damage values are wrong)


  1. Pump: 516.67
  2. Combat: 1708
  3. KSG-1:542.52
  4. AA12: 1443


FN-FAL

Believe it or not, the FN FAL has same damage as SCAR. Here are my test results again with a friend ( thanks chimiblino. ) NO PENETRATION ANYMORE - that is right folks. The FN FAL doesn't penetrate ZEDs anymore. I assure you.


  • Gorefast - 6 Man HoE, with SCAR it takes 1 headshot to decap, and 2 body shots to completely kill it. Same with the FAL. 1 HS, 2 BOD


  • Husk - 6 Man HoE, SCAR : 4 to decap, 3 to kill FAL: 4 to decap, 3 to kill

  • Rate of Fire, Reload Speed (avg'd values)


  1. SCAR; Empties mag in 2.2 seconds. Reloads in 2.2 seconds as level 6 commando, reloads in 3 seconds off perk.
  2. FN FAL; Empties mag in 1.8 seconds. Reloads in 2.6 seconds as level 6 commando. Reloads in 3.5 seconds off perk.


  • Damages (Headshots for SC, Husk, Siren as level 6 commando)


  1. FAL: 106
  2. SCAR: 106


  • DPS

  1. FAL:1472 (assuming all headshots)
  2. SCAR:1204.55 (assuming all headshots)

I also did the recoil tests for the guns. The starting point is the boundary between the the white portion of wall and the brown portion as shown here:
Spoiler!


Here is where the FAL ended up:
Spoiler!


Here is where the SCAR ended up:
Spoiler!


So, we know that the FAL has significantly less recoil with a higher rate of fire.

M7A3M

I did a quick check on this since this isn't as one of the highly debatable weapons added. I did a quick comparison to other medic guns and here are my findings.


MP5 and MP7 both have a total of 400 round capacity. The M7A3M only has 300 bullets total. The M7A3M has more power than both of them, and nears the firepower of an Handcannon. However, the ROF of the guns goes from MP7 to being the fastest and most recoil, to the MP5 for medium ROF and recoil, to the M7A3M with the slowest rate of fire and noticeable recoil.


  • Medic Gun Damages


  1. MP5: 33 for headshot
  2. MP7: 27 for headshot
  3. M7A3: 77 for headshot


  • Rate of Fire ( as level 6 Medic)

  1. MP5 mag empty: 4.4 seconds
  2. MP7 mag empty: 2.3 seconds
  3. M7A3 mag empty: 4.6 seconds


  • DPS (assuming all headshots)


  1. MP5: 480
  2. MP7: 469.56
  3. M7A3: 502.17
I also have recoil tests for the guns. Starting at the same boundary of the white portion of wall and brown portion
Spoiler!


Here is the MP7 recoil (Keep in mind its 30 rounds only when comparing to the MP5's 64 rounds)
Spoiler!


Here is the MP5 recoil
Spoiler!


and the M7A3 recoil (although it seems high, it is easy to correct because of the low rate of fire)
Spoiler!




M99

Okay, This gun here. Still OP. No doubt about it. In tests, it can kill 3 6 man HoE Scrakes, 1 bullet. With those 25 bullets, assuming you're killing SCs only, that can amount to
killing 75 scrakes, that is how much firepower the thing has. I know it is unrealistic that you can kill 75 scrakes, but it is to show the firepower of the thing. Also, body shots, ANY PERK, STUNS.

For Fleshpounds, similar results. With 2 bullets, you kill 2 fleshies. Unrealistically, that amounts to 25 fleshpounds killed.

In comparison to the crossbow, it takes 3 bolts + 1 HC shot to decap. Lets ignore the HC factor for now and say a team mate does that. 3 bolts per FP, 36 bolts. That only amounts to 12 FPs. This means that the M99 has twice the firepower of the crossbow.


  • Damages of the M99 v Crossbow (as level 6 sharp)
-Fleshpounds
If you played sharp, then you should know that the first headshot does less damage than the second. So I took down both numbers.

M99: 1st headshot; 2078 . 2nd headshot; 6342

Crossbow: 1st 3 bolts: 1005. 4th bolt:3088

M99 Body shot: 385

Crossbow Body shot: 150

-Scrakes

M99: 1 shot = 1 kill ; dmg: 17864

Crossbow: 1st bolt: 1440, 2nd bolt: 5004


M99 body shot: 770

Crossbow body shot: 300


It does seem to appear that the M99 is at least TWICE as strong as the crossbow.

  • ROF (I listed the fastest possible speed)

  1. M99: 1.9 seconds for 2 bullets (FP Kill)
  2. Crossbow: 3.4 seconds for 4 bolts (FP Kill)

    Actual times might vary slightly if you have different timings for the animation hitbox.

Crossbow

Same verdict as before. You can easily recover from missed shots. Too easy to use. Nothing needs to be said. See above for damage comparisons with the M99.





----------------------------------------


In the end, I was surprised at my findings. Especially the MK23, FN FAL and KSG and their damages. I'd thought they were still like in the IJC pack, overpowered and hated. Now upon seeing them, I think they have been balanced MUCH better than in the IJC pack. I mean, adding them to the game wasn't REALLY a good move, but it adds to experience to the game. In the end, its all personal choice. If you don't like the guns then don't use them. Simple as that.


You ask me what I'm going to do? Well, let me tell you. I'm going to ditch the crossbow, that's for starts. Gonna practice my M14 and LAR combo. Then I MIGHT consider using the MK23, but the ammo pool is ridiculously high. The FN FAL, i might openly switch with the SCAR. The M99, do not want. M7A3M, might come in handy with extra firepower but burden with weight. That is all for now.



and once again if you read through all my writing, I thank you for putting up with me. 8)


----------------------------------- Misc Update List------------------------------------

Here are the other subtle updates/bugs I found:
Here are the other subtle updates/bugs I found:

7/9/2012 Clot shooting range added to KF_Abusementpark.rom

Auto Hunting Shotgun Fixed. No more "lenny-cannons" anymore. 8)

Dual HC / Dual 44 Mag "money-farm" method fixed.

Low FP and SC spawn count for KF-Hellride

44 Magnum (single) actually weighs 2 blocks now

MK23 trader bug - happened to me on one occasion (You buy a single MK23, fill it up, and then you try to buy a second one, and the 2nd one doesn't buy)

Dualies Ammo Bug is fixed. Ammo is now spread out evenly between the dual pistols when dropped. (except you lose a mag of ammo)

Dualies Accuracy Bug not fixed. (1 gun of the dualies [any] is off center when fired when facing a certain direction)

M99 Testmap penetration bug; Credits to Kami ( shoot FP twice, spawn another one , and that FP will spawn raged )

Hunting Shotgun "3rd Shell" bug not fixed. Credits to Scary Ghost

---------------------------------

-EgreSS+ , National Coalition of Bananas

 
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EgreSS

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2012
104
2
0
I also endorse this video as showing what I meant to show in my long wall of text... :IS2:

Killing Floor: A Message to Tripwire Interactive Developers | re: July 2012 IJC Update [HoE] - YouTube


Also, much thanks for scary_ghost for providing the gun stats

[Dual] MK23
Damage: 82
Penetration reduction: 0.5x
Penetration: 2 (hits 3 specimens)
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

KSG
Damage: 19.5
Penetration reduction: 0.75x
Penetration: 4 off perk, effectively infinite perked
Head shot multiplier: 1.65 (1.1x from damage type, 1.5x from pellet)
Pellets: 12

M7A3
Damage: 70
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x
Heal boost: 30 (same as MP5M)
Heal charge regen rate: 0.3 (same as MP7M)

M99
Damage: 770
Head shot multiplier: 2.25x (1.0x from damage type, 2.25x from bullet)
Penetration reduction: 0.8x
Penetration: Infinite

FNFal
Damage: 65
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijBe_-hfonI
 
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KON_Air

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2009
278
50
0
I'm pretty sure they all will get nerfed in near future and I guess you are spot on for most of them.

Mk23 will definately get damage nerfs, but I'm pretty sure it will replace 9mm for those who have the extra weight.
KSG-1 will become Auto Shotgun alternative, damage nerf and hey! all shotguns have absurd penetration already.
M99 it will probably get a serious reduction in ammo pool, possibly even longer reload and some weight reduction.
FN-FAL will possibly be a "better Scar per shot" I guess it will suffer either "moar dosh" and rof and acc. nerfs.
M7A3 I guess medics deserve this :p
 
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Left 4 Dinner

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 11, 2012
732
12
0
IMO, the medic gun, is good the way it is. ALthough it might make medics turn into more of a battle medic, its still a nice side grade from the other weapons. As for the Mk23's, I hope they get a minor nerf since they will make handcanons and magnums, uesless. As for the KSG-1, the one thing that I love about that weapon, is its alt fire allows tight spread, and wide spread. The FN-FAL and M99 both need nerfing ASAP, but then again, if TWI fixed the reload switch-weapon glitch, then things like hunting shotgun and M99 wouldnt be half as bad.
 
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dragon_kid

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 24, 2011
64
2
0
KF-WestLondon
M7A3 is more or less the battle rifle for the medic. It should be noted it's STILL about 2k even at max perk, so it's definately the higher-end weapon for them (the Twisted Christmas medigun was more of a sidegrade in comparison).

KSG - This is a bit of a can of worms subject. Sure, it's got superhigh penetration (most shotties do for that matter), but even at 'Tight' spread on my level 4 Support, it takes multiple shot to fell anything tougher then a sword-swallowing psychopath, more if ya miss the head. And the 'Wide' spread, while good at dealing with hordes of clots, is barely worth it at any distance longer then 3 feet or so.

M99 by far is the hardest to make excuses for. Even still, it's very much an alternative to the LAW, just with piercing instead of splash as it's deathbringer. It's expensive, heavy, and if yer using one ya just KNOW someone's gonna say you're overcompensating.

FN-Fal - Beyond the slightly better speed of the SCAR, it seems (at least statwise thanks to the trader) identicel, not even less damage then the SCAR (kinda fitting for the game's first alternative Battle Rifle, but still). I'd love to see more of a change, but being a commando (and using the FAL a lot back during the mod days) I think they did a fair job fitting it in. That and it has more kickback on automatic mode then the original did (not M4 bad, but still noticeable if you're not burstfiring)

MK23 - I'm starting to wonder if someone at Tripwire likes the Sharps as much as the original Dawn of War team liked the Eldar...
 
Last edited:

Yoshiro

In Soviet Russia, Yoshiro is a cake
Staff member
Oct 10, 2005
12,956
3,880
113
We are looking to do some balance changes in the future and community feedback is, as always, invaluable.
 

~Ren~

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 18, 2011
157
9
0
It's the first time I've used the FN-FAL as I try and stay away from this pack, no offence intended to the creators but I don't like the M99, it looks and sounds great but is OP, with regards to the recoil on the FN-FAL, I'm surprised you say it has less, I found it to be worse than the SCAR, I'll try it later tonight but at the moment it won't replace my AK/SCAR combo.
 
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EgreSS

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2012
104
2
0
Thank you every one for your input and reading, it helps. :D

I have added some of my new findings, and some of it has me in shock :eek:

I'm sure it might surprise a few you fellow KF players too. I updated it under my OP, and you can view it easier since I have organized my post a bit.
 

FSUBoo

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 6, 2010
601
167
0
Florida, US
Spoiler!
Spoiler!



Awesome post, you hit the nail on the head with all of this, it simply comes down to a matter of preference on everything. The M99 in my opinion is the only truly OP weapon in the new set, the others have been balanced fairly well, except maybe the FAL, and not the gun itself, but in that you get 2 tier 3 weapons at once if you carry Scar+Fal.
 

Spicy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 8, 2010
1,219
162
0
32
New England, the Newer England
Egress, loving the updated info you added to your post, especially the MK23 and HSG-1 bits.

Spoiler!
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
0
California
[Dual] MK23
Damage: 82
Penetration reduction: 0.5x
Penetration: 2 (hits 3 specimens)
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

KSG
Damage: 19.5
Penetration reduction: 0.75x
Penetration: 4 off perk, effectively infinite perked
Head shot multiplier: 1.65 (1.1x from damage type, 1.5x from pellet)
Pellets: 12

M7A3
Damage: 70
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x
Heal boost: 30 (same as MP5M)
Heal charge regen rate: 0.3 (same as MP7M)

M99
Damage: 770
Head shot multiplier: 2.25x (1.0x from damage type, 2.25x from bullet)
Penetration reduction: 0.8x
Penetration: Infinite

FNFal
Damage: 65
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x
 
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EgreSS

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2012
104
2
0
Thanks scary_ghost! That information is a lot more accurate than just my tests. :D

and spicy, I understand that testmap is for test only and I'm only using my comparisons to emphaise the OP'd ness of the M99. I also think that the support v FP thing isn't neccesarily the same thing (SP), but I liked how team work was needed to clear the area for the support to get the FP, otherwise sirens or trash zeds in front of the FP can ruin the combo. As for the M99, its just point and shoot while hiding behind your team mates for cover. and I also forgot to thank you this morning :)
 
Last edited:

karsey22

Member
Oct 28, 2011
470
18
18
The words have been taken out of my mouth. Nice OP and follow up video from Serenity. I'm glad TW is looking into some balance patches. The challenge has been completely taken out of HoE.
 

YoYoBatty

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 17, 2009
3,468
2,503
0
Canada
[Dual] MK23
Damage: 65
Penetration reduction: 0.5x
Penetration: 2 (hits 3 specimens)
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

KSG
Damage: 19.5
Penetration reduction: 0.75x
Penetration: 4 off perk, effectively infinite perked
Head shot multiplier: 1.65 (1.1x from damage type, 1.5x from pellet)

M7A3
Damage: 70
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x
Heal boost: 30 (same as MP5M)
Heal charge regen rate: 0.3 (same as MP7M)

M99
Damage: 500
Head shot multiplier: 2.00x (1.0x from damage type, 2.25x from bullet)
Penetration reduction: 0.6x
Penetration: Infinite

FNFal
Damage: 65
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

That is what I think it should be IMO
 

Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,392
497
83
[Dual] MK23
Damage: 82
Penetration reduction: 0.5x
Penetration: 2 (hits 3 specimens)
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

KSG
Damage: 19.5
Penetration reduction: 0.75x
Penetration: 4 off perk, effectively infinite perked
Head shot multiplier: 1.65 (1.1x from damage type, 1.5x from pellet)

M7A3
Damage: 70
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x
Heal boost: 30 (same as MP5M)
Heal charge regen rate: 0.3 (same as MP7M)

M99
Damage: 770
Head shot multiplier: 2.25x (1.0x from damage type, 2.25x from bullet)
Penetration reduction: 0.8x
Penetration: Infinite

FNFal
Damage: 65
Head shot multiplier: 1.1x

How the crappydooda can the MK23 have that much damage?? What were they thinking? 60 damage is enough, and with 0 penetration please (It could have something different to it, like a lasersight or something instead)
I'm ok with all the other weapons' damages (yes, even the M99, bite me :rolleyes:)

Hmrph, oh well, anger venting aside, how many pellets does the HSG-1 shoot? 10?
 

lammah

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2011
345
30
0
California
Mk23 would be ok if it was 4 blocks. Right now you can carry a bow, mk23 and m44, which is a bit too much IMHO.

Video of how OP the xbow now is on 6man HoE :
Killing Floor - Crossbow is now way overpowered - YouTube

Its much worse than the m99 as you can also carry a HC or MK23 along and take care of the smaller stuff as well. IT makes the other perks almost obsolete now.
 
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C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,282
2,720
0
Mk23 more damaging than .44? I didn't notice that, unless you mean more damage per mag. Don't forget the .44 has assloads of reloads (conservation) and its got by far a better rate of fire as an emergency weapon (i.e. spam a siren/husk to death at a tight spot). The Mk23 is more like a weapon that enables you to hang on for a little longer by taking out clots and stuff.

The combat shotgun however, stats are totally fine, but dear god, the ammo price and gun price needs a massive drop to be truly balanced.