Does range and power of guns even matter?

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BeserkWraithlor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2006
461
0
0
Arizona
People in the forums tell me that Assault rifles replaced SMGs, because of more power and accuracy, but why does that actually matter? (Forgive my ignorance). First off, the weapon's power does not really mean much, does it? You are going to die if a guy shoots you multiple times with any gun, right? Automatic weapons shoot very fast,and carry alot of ammo, so I don't see how damage is going to make a difference, if 30 rounds will drop anybody.

Next, is accuracy. SMGs are accurate to 100-200 meters, while Assault Rifles/Rifles are 400-600, Big deal! When will you face a guy +400 meters away? 100 meters is pretty big if you ask me. Playing Red Orchestra, most of the urban infantry combat is below +200 meters, and its mostly close combat.

Also, an MP40 is accurate up to 200 meters, so If I shoot a target 200 meters away with an Mp40, will it be easy to hit it?
 

The Soup Nazi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 10, 2006
257
0
0
People in the forums tell me that Assault rifles replaced SMGs, because of more power and accuracy, but why does that actually matter? (Forgive my ignorance). First off, the weapon's power does not really mean much, does it? You are going to die if a guy shoots you multiple times with any gun, right? Automatic weapons shoot very fast,and carry alot of ammo, so I don't see how damage is going to make a difference, if 30 rounds will drop anybody.

Next, is accuracy. SMGs are accurate to 100-200 meters, while Assault Rifles/Rifles are 400-600, Big deal! When will you face a guy +400 meters away? 100 meters is pretty big if you ask me. Playing Red Orchestra, most of the urban infantry combat is below +200 meters, and its mostly close combat.

Also, an MP40 is accurate up to 200 meters, so If I shoot a target 200 meters away with an Mp40, will it be easy to hit it?

No. You should look back on how many times people complain that it takes entire magazines of 9mm or .223 to take out a single person, ESPECIALLY when they're pumped up on adrenaline. When you get shot, you don't suffer an instant death, infact, you could probably keep on fighting or at least maintain conciousness for a bit of time. When you say that automatic weapons "Shoot fast", you say it like its an asset. You're assuming that all 30 rounds will actually hit.

Now its quite apparent that you haven't fired a firearm yourself and just gathered your knowledge based on supposed internet accounts. SMGs /ACCURATE/ to 100-200 meters? Maybe effective range, but not even close to Minute of Goering. I also assume you'd be firing this in automatic mode, in a unsupported position, so you'd both have to deal with instability AND heavy recoil. Assault rifles accurate to 400-600 yards? Again, I'd have to say EFFECTIVE range. What you really must do to become familiar with firearms is to fire one yourself. A lot of people struggle with accuracy at 100-200 yards with bolt action rifles, and it takes quite a bit of concentration to hit spot on. Most people who have experince firing Submachine guns that I have talked to have said that in engagements beyond 25 yards, they'd take a real rifle over an SMG anyday.

Now, the reason why they switched to Assault Rifles was that they both served the purpose of the current battle rifles AND Submachine guns. The rounds were smaller and therefore more could be carried per soldier, automtic fire gave it funcitonality as a room sweeper, PLUS they're still accurate to the engagements that dedicated rifles are used for. But I will agree with you on one point, unless you're out in the open, you're at tops going to hit 200-300 yards, especially in urban engagements. The only instance that I can remember EXTREMELY long ranged engagements occuring would be in WW1 where American riflemen would get kills from several hundred yards away.
 
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Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
yeah smgs are accurate at 200 meters but its relative. in real life a smg will have like a 8-12 inch spread at that range. still perfectly leathal thats single shot btw not spray or bursts because the kick at that range will make you miss. thats why the newer m16s shoot in bursts of 3. But a rifle at 200 meters will hit within the same inch pretty much every time. maybe a little off due to the ammo not all being exactly the same. Basicly you wont be sniping with a smg. but you have plenty of shots to try to hit them with. and if you do it them it will kill just as easy at 200meters as it will at 20meters. It will still have plenty of power to tear a nice hole in whoever it hits.

And yeah most fights are under that 200 meters. If you find some ww2 vets you can ask them about the guns and they will all tell you the same thing if they could get a smg they would take it over a rifle anyday.

As for power mattering... in the game nope it dosnt really matter much. The main reason for this is the lack of bullet penitration. In real life if you know theres someone behind a wall that wants to kill you and you have a smg or a MG your gonna shoot a bunch of holes in that wall before you go into the room. and thats when power matters. When you have the penitation you can kill people you cant see. This is why now in iraq some of our troops have gone back to using the old M14 that the M16 replaced. Just because it has more penitation power then the M16. A M14 will shoot through the cinderblock walls alot easier then a M16 will. The downfall of the larger more powerful rounds is they do have more recoil and they weigh more so you cant carry as much ammo. Basicly its all about finding the perfect balance.
 

Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
soup nazi is right about how effective the smaller rounds are. they wont stop someone dead like a rifle will. A rifle will blow a big hole out the back of the person you hit and they will hit the ground pretty fast. But the smaller smg rounds will still kill just fine just not as fast. This is why the americans liked the thomson so much. It uses the large .45 caliber rounds that do have alot more stopping power then the 9mm.

Also right about how you use the smgs You most likely wont stop and aim and use iron sites with the weapon rested and try to pick people off at long range. But you will spray the area they are in with alot of rounds and at the very least it will get them to stay down.

But SMGs do not have heavy recoil. thats a myth started by game companys. They are small light rounds in a fairly heavy gun. A rifle has worse recoil on a per shot basis. But the smg recoil will shake you bad because of just how many rounds it does fire. so only the first couple rounds are accurate.
 

Dr. Peter Venkman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 21, 2006
871
68
0
California
People in the forums tell me that Assault rifles replaced SMGs, because of more power and accuracy, but why does that actually matter? (Forgive my ignorance). First off, the weapon's power does not really mean much, does it? You are going to die if a guy shoots you multiple times with any gun, right? Automatic weapons shoot very fast,and carry alot of ammo, so I don't see how damage is going to make a difference, if 30 rounds will drop anybody.

Next, is accuracy. SMGs are accurate to 100-200 meters, while Assault Rifles/Rifles are 400-600, Big deal! When will you face a guy +400 meters away? 100 meters is pretty big if you ask me. Playing Red Orchestra, most of the urban infantry combat is below +200 meters, and its mostly close combat.

Also, an MP40 is accurate up to 200 meters, so If I shoot a target 200 meters away with an Mp40, will it be easy to hit it?

A 8mm hole in someone's chest hurts a lot more than a few rounds of .45 or 9mm that barely had any relatively damaging penetration at 200 yards. That is even considering the remote possibility of hitting someone over a distance of 600 feet with a fixed sight and a pistol cartridge. I have a hard time being greatly accurate with my bolt actions at 100 yards bench rested due to bad habits like improper sighting, but I am on the paper.

That being said, I would not have a problem dropping someone from that distance, probably even 150 yards if I may say so. I may not be spot on accurate, but with a decent sight picture I could take someone out. That would not be the case with a submachine gun. Shooting at 150 yards with a Thompson and MP40 is not going to do you much good. Reason being is that even with a hit the possibility of a knockdown and immediate casualty is pretty low due to the loss of velocity and the delivery of energy to the target. That's even playing with the idea of their being a hit in the first place with a fixed sight SMG that allows for no windage and possibly some elevation adjustments.

'Assault' rifles with intermediate cartridges (were developed to transfer enough energy to a target at a range most seen in combat (200 meters or less) and allow for a higher rate of fire in close and urban combat settings. A bolt-action is worthless in room-to-room/house-to-house fighting because the powerful cartridge is not needed for engagements that are so close, the recoil is high, and the rate of fire is slow. By arming your troopers with an assault rifle you give them the ability to engage targets at a variety of ranges; next door, or four blocks away. Assault rifles pack more punch and are more versatile than submachineguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rifle_cartridge_comparison.jpg

From left to right:

.50 BMG, 300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester, 7.62 Russian Short, 5.56 NATO, .22 LR

The 7.62x39mm and 5.56 NATO can usually get the job done at ranges of a medium distance (200-300 yards), as well as close fighting where rate of fire is necessary. That, and you can carry more of it. The cons of a more powerful cartridge, like the .50, .300 Winchester Mag, and .308 is that there is more recoil, less ammo can be carried, and usually the rate of fire is slower (unless talking about machineguns). The pros of those is that they offer more knockdown power and far greater penetration than any other cartridge.

Think of it in RO terms: The Stg44 is useful in more situations than the MP40m K98, and G43 are or ever will be.
 
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User Name

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 12, 2006
1,125
19
0
recoil is relative

an mp-40 won't recoil as much as a M3 will ( the M3 has a very heavy bolt )

A muzzle brake helps too. My SVT 40 doesn't kick hard at all when compared to a Mosin.

That being said. Assault rifles were designed to replace SMGs, and rifles. The M16 was made into the MBR of the United States in order to have one rifle for all. This way you could have a high rate of fire with mild recoil, like a SMG. While also having the range and accuracy of a rifle.

They don't really have the range of a full house military rifle, but they do the job in modern warfare. We don't have the long range battles now like we did in WWI and before. So we don't need our troops armed with rifles that can take a man down 1,000 yards away.

I think 5,56 is too small though. We should adopt the 6.8 SPC, but that's a whole 'nother topic all together.
 

The Soup Nazi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 10, 2006
257
0
0
I think we should revamp warfare and equip soldiers with WW1 German helmets with "Kaiser spikes" instead of guns.
 

User Name

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 12, 2006
1,125
19
0
91/30's don't kick hard period, and M44s have the bayonet for added weight. Hungarian heavy ball is only 180 grains. Czech is only 148.

It doesn't bother me anyway. I shoot slugs out of a 12 guage single barrel top break and it doesn't bother me.

I just meant that compared to the kick of a Mosin. An SVT 40 doesn't have much of one due to the muzzle break.
 

{YBBS}Sage

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 15, 2006
1,338
0
0
Nastiest-recoiling Mosin round I've found is the Ingman... That stuff hits HARD, it'd doing about 3,000 FPS out of a 91/30, and that's at 150 grains of bullet! It's noticably louder than the rest.

Back on topic....

Err. It's pretty much done. :p I'd just like to add that full-auto assault rifle carbines, like the M4, are a much better choice on the modern battlefield because of one other thing: body armor. Since the advent of body armor, the SMG isn't much of a viable front-line tool.

Venkman hit it on the head: The StG44 is useful in more situations than the K98 or G43 or MP40. It cuts the middle between them, decent accuracy; not as good as the G43 or K98, but better than the MP40, and good stopping power; again, not as good as the rifles, but better than the SMG, with a ROF and magazine capacity to match the MP40 and trump either rifle.

Assault rifles are basically Jacks of all trades.

Oh, and hitting anything at >100 yards with a WWII-era SMG.... good luck. :p
 

[CiA]Stiletto

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
845
1
0
Nastiest-recoiling Mosin round I've found is the Ingman... That stuff hits HARD, it'd doing about 3,000 FPS out of a 91/30, and that's at 150 grains of bullet! It's noticably louder than the rest.
Sweet, I just picked up a box of that stuff at the gun show last weekend. :D
 

USMC_Recruit

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 28, 2006
47
0
0
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Another reason why rifles tend to put someone down quicker is because the high velocity bullet can shatter and deviate when it hits a person (not every time, but it can). A low velocity pistol round, even with the somewhat higher velocity that the longer smg barrel allows, won't shatter or deviate at all in flesh (unless it hits bone). Therefore you have to hit something vital with a smg in order to put them down right away.


But a rifle at 200 meters will hit within the same inch pretty much every time. maybe a little off due to the ammo not all being exactly the same.


200 meters within the same inch? Not happening with any military rifle or military ammo. Even a group within an inch at 100 meters is highly unlikely with most military rifles. In fact i don't know of any military ammo that shoots sub-minute groups, if you know where I can find some clue me in man. A 2 inch group at 100 meters is acceptable for military rifles and ammo.


@ User Name, semi autos normally kick less than bolties because the action of reloading the weapon takes away quite a bit the enertia from the rifle firing. Muzzle brakes help a lot too, but the main reason you don't feel as much of a kick is because it's a semi.