Do you want ROHOS to have DH's suppression system?

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

I find it interesting to see that people consider DH's effect as being "overdone" or "aggressive". The motion is the bare minimum required to prevent "hero" riflemen from popping off entrenched MG's at range but for closer targets, it's not enough to really throw your aim. I consider this method to be far less artificial and annoying than most other attempts out there, such as persistent blur effects, an increase in conefire spread or over the top sway (to name the most common methods). If a suppression effect lasts after the gunfire has stopped, then it's overdone. If it cripples a player's ability to react in unrelated situations (e.g. if rounds over your piece of cover prevent you from being able to shoot an enemy coming up behind you) then it's overdone.

As everyone knows, it's impossible to get a true fear of death into the game so any method of "suppression" is going to be at least a little artificial, but it's the plausibility of the system that's the key. In reality, your vision doesn't blur when you get shot at, your reactions don't slow down and you don't magically lose stamina. But a little involuntary muscle twitch or flinch at hearing a very near miss... that's not beyond belief.

I should probably add at this point, that I am most definitely biased in this discussion, since DH's system was my creation, however I also believe the the majority of the players who dislike the system are those same players trying to pick off entrenched automatics. The flinching may be annoying, but that's the point. We can't scare you into taking cover, so the next best thing is to make it more difficult for you to stay out in the open. If someone comes charging at you, you'll likely be able to hit him easily enough (you're not completely crippled), but if you're looking to send a perfect bullet through a machine gunner's skull while he's filling the air around you with lead, then that's just the situation that we're trying to discourage.

 

[Zennousha]

Don't get me wrong, against a Machinegun the purpose is served. However, flinching to the point where your aim has moved a good 60 degrees off target simply because 2 rifleman barely missed you becomes aggravating, and draws control away from the player. I do agree that overdone sway or conefire ballistic impressions to a player is the wrong way of doing things, but so is misdirecting fire due to incoming fire no matter the volume.

Machineguns should be able to keep enemies down. Two riflemen or a hipspraying thompson shouldn't make someone twitch like they're out of valium.

 

[gyps]

Zennousha, right the argument to have any kind of movement to your aim is at best annoying at worst it's game destorying, any artificial source that alters your abilty to aim should be avoided, I know there will be those who say it's more realistic, but it's not everyone who's frightened by fireing in real life so if were are to be life like surley this should not happen all the time, Many can control there fear - so as it cant be implemented in a realistic way should it be in the game in the first place, and this is game.

I share Zennousha thoughts surpression should be limited to MG's alone not all weapons should induce fear shake.

 

[LemoN]

I figure penetration will make the induced suppression less necessary, so it could be toned down compared to DH.

Could be a two edged sword.
If people are hiding behind a wall they know can be penetrated they either will flee, or try to kill the enemy first. Suppression or not.

 

[NoxNoctum]

I find it interesting to see that people consider DH's effect as being "overdone" or "aggressive". The motion is the bare minimum required to prevent "hero" riflemen from popping off entrenched MG's at range but for closer targets, it's not enough to really throw your aim. I consider this method to be far less artificial and annoying than most other attempts out there, such as persistent blur effects, an increase in conefire spread or over the top sway (to name the most common methods). If a suppression effect lasts after the gunfire has stopped, then it's overdone. If it cripples a player's ability to react in unrelated situations (e.g. if rounds over your piece of cover prevent you from being able to shoot an enemy coming up behind you) then it's overdone.

As everyone knows, it's impossible to get a true fear of death into the game so any method of "suppression" is going to be at least a little artificial, but it's the plausibility of the system that's the key. In reality, your vision doesn't blur when you get shot at, your reactions don't slow down and you don't magically lose stamina. But a little involuntary muscle twitch or flinch at hearing a very near miss... that's not beyond belief.

I should probably add at this point, that I am most definitely biased in this discussion, since DH's system was my creation, however I also believe the the majority of the players who dislike the system are those same players trying to pick off entrenched automatics. The flinching may be annoying, but that's the point. We can't scare you into taking cover, so the next best thing is to make it more difficult for you to stay out in the open. If someone comes charging at you, you'll likely be able to hit him easily enough (you're not completely crippled), but if you're looking to send a perfect bullet through a machine gunner's skull while he's filling the air around you with lead, then that's just the situation that we're trying to discourage.

QFT.

Explains it perfectly.

And I disagree that only MGs should cause this effect. In DH, one automatic rifle (Garand or G43 or whatever) shooting at you will not suppress you. 3 or 4 shooting at you will. This is realistic I feel. Who wouldn't be scared when he's got ~150+ rounds per minute coming directly at him? (this is assuming of course that the 3 or 4 riflemen are firing as quickly as possible to suppress and not to get a perfect headshot)

The point is, in DH, I will see situations like this: 2 MGs and maybe a BAR and a couple riflemen spraying entire buildings providing cover for the rest of the team to run up. Sure, a couple dudes might get a few seconds to pop up and kill a few, but most are cowering for their lives, as they would be in RL. Yes, in RL, someone might very well stand up and ignore the fire, but I think what the majority of human beings would do should be modeled, not what the fanatics are congressional medal of honor winners would do. In RO what do I see. I see an MG firing at a building. It has no effect on the people inside. Like I said in the OP, even if he's shooting directly at my window, I can just sidestep a bit, and pop up and take a shot.

And penetration will definitely not effectively "fake" fear of death.

And are you kidding about the thompson? If a thompson was shooting up at the window I was in from close range I would sure as hell get down! It's only got a 30 round mag (right?) but that's 30 rounds coming out VERY quickly.

The only thing I would change from DH is that there shouldn't be any suppression effect in cases where two dudes are in the open very close to each other firing at each other. But I'm not sure how that would be programmed, how the system could "sense" when that situation was happening.

 

[Galslacht]

I don't like the jerky movement DH's system has, so I want something similar to Ostfront's system.

Ostfront suppression system does not work no matter how you put it. DH-suppression system is the solution, but needs some more perfection.

 

[Galslacht]

I find it interesting to see that people consider DH's effect as being "overdone" or "aggressive". The motion is the bare minimum required to prevent "hero" riflemen from popping off entrenched MG's at range but for closer targets, it's not enough to really throw your aim. I consider this method to be far less artificial and annoying than most other attempts out there, such as persistent blur effects, an increase in conefire spread or over the top sway (to name the most common methods). If a suppression effect lasts after the gunfire has stopped, then it's overdone. If it cripples a player's ability to react in unrelated situations (e.g. if rounds over your piece of cover prevent you from being able to shoot an enemy coming up behind you) then it's overdone.

As everyone knows, it's impossible to get a true fear of death into the game so any method of "suppression" is going to be at least a little artificial, but it's the plausibility of the system that's the key. In reality, your vision doesn't blur when you get shot at, your reactions don't slow down and you don't magically lose stamina. But a little involuntary muscle twitch or flinch at hearing a very near miss... that's not beyond belief.

I should probably add at this point, that I am most definitely biased in this discussion, since DH's system was my creation, however I also believe the the majority of the players who dislike the system are those same players trying to pick off entrenched automatics. The flinching may be annoying, but that's the point. We can't scare you into taking cover, so the next best thing is to make it more difficult for you to stay out in the open. If someone comes charging at you, you'll likely be able to hit him easily enough (you're not completely crippled), but if you're looking to send a perfect bullet through a machine gunner's skull while he's filling the air around you with lead, then that's just the situation that we're trying to discourage.

Awesome
The creater of the DH suppression system himself.

This and MrMoe's post that summarizes it (in the ideas and suggestions subforum) are a must-read for everyone who wants to dive in this matter.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=610767#post610767

 

[Zennousha]

QFT.

Explains it perfectly.

And I disagree that only MGs should cause this effect. In DH, one automatic rifle (Garand or G43 or whatever) shooting at you will not suppress you. 3 or 4 shooting at you will. This is realistic I feel. Who wouldn't be scared when he's got ~150+ rounds per minute coming directly at him? (this is assuming of course that the 3 or 4 riflemen are firing as quickly as possible to suppress and not to get a perfect headshot)

The point is, in DH, I will see situations like this: 2 MGs and maybe a BAR and a couple riflemen spraying entire buildings providing cover for the rest of the team to run up. Sure, a couple dudes might get a few seconds to pop up and kill a few, but most are cowering for their lives, as they would be in RL. Yes, in RL, someone might very well stand up and ignore the fire, but I think what the majority of human beings would do should be modeled, not what the fanatics are congressional medal of honor winners would do. In RO what do I see. I see an MG firing at a building. It has no effect on the people inside. Like I said in the OP, even if he's shooting directly at my window, I can just sidestep a bit, and pop up and take a shot.

And penetration will definitely not effectively "fake" fear of death.

And are you kidding about the thompson? If a thompson was shooting up at the window I was in from close range I would sure as hell get down! It's only got a 30 round mag (right?) but that's 30 rounds coming out VERY quickly.

The only thing I would change from DH is that there shouldn't be any suppression effect in cases where two dudes are in the open very close to each other firing at each other. But I'm not sure how that would be programmed, how the system could "sense" when that situation was happening.

But see, that's the very essence of the problem! In real life, they would get down. However it isn't to say that if someone did in fact stand up, they'd start violently throwing their aim about until they're gazing at the sky above. If there's going to be any control taken away, it should be to force the person to crouch down behind cover. No more, no less.

Minor things like blur and shakiness are fine. Taking away control is only frustrating.

 

[LemoN]

What people also have to realise is that if a soldier gets under fire his heartbeat rises.

The problem is, its hard to aim a rifle when your heart is pounding, which points to an irony of modern combat: it does extraordinarily violent things to the human body but requires almost dead calm to execute well. Complex motor skills start to diminish at 145 beats per minute, which wouldn't matter much in a swordfight but could definitely ruin your aim with a rifle. At 170 beats per minute you start to experience tunnel vision, loss of depth perception, and restricted hearing. And at 180 beats per minute, you enter a netherworld where rational thought decays, bowel and bladder control are lost, and you start to exhibit the crudest sorts of survival behaviors: freezing, fleeing, and submission.

It is a proven fact that soldiers under heavy fire can go up as far as 190 heartbeats.
Of course there are exceptions, like a football player being able to make an incredible shot at a high distance at 170 beats per minute, but this is acquired by years of training.

This also would give us the opportunity to make heroes less affected by suppression, as they are more "resistant" to it.
:IS2:

 

[O'Shannon]

No.
don't like DH suppression don't want DH suppression.

 

[Zennousha]

What people also have to realise is that if a soldier gets under fire his heartbeat rises.

The problem is, its hard to aim a rifle when your heart is pounding, which points to an irony of modern combat: it does extraordinarily violent things to the human body but requires almost dead calm to execute well. Complex motor skills start to diminish at 145 beats per minute, which wouldn't matter much in a swordfight but could definitely ruin your aim with a rifle. At 170 beats per minute you start to experience tunnel vision, loss of depth perception, and restricted hearing. And at 180 beats per minute, you enter a netherworld where rational thought decays, bowel and bladder control are lost, and you start to exhibit the crudest sorts of survival behaviors: freezing, fleeing, and submission.

It is a proven fact that soldiers under heavy fire can go up as far as 190 heartbeats.
Of course there are exceptions, like a football player being able to make an incredible shot at a high distance at 170 beats per minute, but this is acquired by years of training.

This also would give us the opportunity to make heroes less affected by suppression, as they are more "resistant" to it.
:IS2:

And all of those things sound great, but whether or not they can or will be implemented is beyond me. Even if one of those elements are used, it'd be plenty.

 

[mo0nbuggy1]

I found the suppression in DH very helpful in determining many things other then the most obvious "Oh I'm getting shot at, take cover"....
After a while of playing it's easy to determine
what weapon your being engaged with, MG, Rifle, SMG, by the volume of fire your are receiving, and the severeness of the suppression. But not just that.
Is the fire accurate? How far is it above my head? Can this bloke shoot straight? Maybe I can make it to the next bit of cover without being hit. Or maybe you can't, if theres no suppression system whats stopping me from legging it out in the open? May as well just pop my head above this fence to have a lookie, oh no wait there was an MG firing over my head the whole time and I didn't know. I don't know I'm getting shot at so what difference does it make?
I'd get pretty bloody mad but thats it, I'd be even more agro if all there is is some pansy little CoD red bar system.
A good suppression system adds a new dimension to the tactics and strategy of the game, even if you can't see your enemy you can still have a half good idea of what weapon he is using and how far away he is. Or maybe there is more than one!!
I think it would be quite silly that a self proclaimed realistic ww2 shooter doesn't feature a suppression indicator.

 

[LemoN]

And all of those things sound great, but whether or not they can or will be implemented is beyond me. Even if one of those elements are used, it'd be plenty.

This was an example what is happening in real life to make people understand why people call the DH system more realistic. I'm not saying that I want this implemented.

 

[Shadrach]

I support the introduction of "DH-type" suppression in HoS, it works really well in DH.

 

[Lucan946]

Darkest Hour's suppression is ****. However, something like Resistance and Liberation's is not. You can still return accurate fire, but your gun starts to shake a little bit and your vision gets a bit black. However, if someone rounds the corner and sprays half a magazine of a Thompson at you, you can still very easily return fire. None of this "BAM your.\,guns pointed at the sky" ****. So, this could go either way depending on how the devs decide to implement it, if they implement it.

 

[NoxNoctum]

You guys aren't getting it. Yes nothing happens if a machine-gun is firing close to you (though probably you flinch at least SOME involuntarily, unless you're a maniac or a veteran). Yes it's not in "reality". But in "reality" when automatic weapons are firing hundreds of bullets at you, it's scary, at least for MOST PEOPLE.

I don't care if they use the same system as DH, but they need SOMETHING.

Penetration will not cause fear of death, it will just make MGs more effective (good thing). But people in a building getting plastered by an MG42 will still not be afraid to stick their heads out and pop off a great shot at the MG42. Because guess what, if they die in game... THEY'RE STILL ALIVE IN REAL LIFE. Yes, I'm sure there were plenty of times in WW2 when this happened (someone took an extremely dangerous risk to kill the enemy), but I don't think TWI should be trying to simulate the minority, the congressional medal of honor winners, the SS fanatics, etc, but the majority.

Hell, maybe they could have in addition to the regular classes (rifle, SMG, etc.) a few limited "Veteran" spots, who are not as affected, or not affected at all by suppression. I'd be all for that. So that could represent the vets who have been through it all and do what needs to be done regardless of the risk.

Not having SOME kind of suppression system will result in less realistic gameplay, end of story. Prove me wrong though if you can, I'd love to hear the opposition (except VariousNames, who irritates me, I would block you if I knew how buddy ).

But it does look like the majority are more on my side according to current poll numbers lol.

 

[NoxNoctum]

Darkest Hour's suppression is ****. However, something like Resistance and Liberation's is not. You can still return accurate fire, but your gun starts to shake a little bit and your vision gets a bit black. However, if someone rounds the corner and sprays half a magazine of a Thompson at you, you can still very easily return fire. None of this "BAM your.\,guns pointed at the sky" ****. So, this could go either way depending on how the devs decide to implement it, if they implement it.

Well I haven't played RnL having heard it's not very good, but I wish I'd put a poll option including it. Unfortunately it seems I can't edit the poll options . Anyone have a video of RnL suppression? Didn't see anything on youtube.

 

[NoxNoctum]

But see, that's the very essence of the problem! In real life, they would get down. However it isn't to say that if someone did in fact stand up, they'd start violently throwing their aim about until they're gazing at the sky above. If there's going to be any control taken away, it should be to force the person to crouch down behind cover. No more, no less.

Minor things like blur and shakiness are fine. Taking away control is only frustrating.

Read my post above (the longer one, not the one about RnL) about having "Vet" classes. This could be a great solution I think.

 

[Bobdog]

Ostfront suppression system does not work no matter how you put it. DH-suppression system is the solution, but needs some more perfection.

Ok I should have worded that differently. I mean I'd rather have a system where it makes it harder for the player (ala Ostfront) rather than taking control away (imo, DH).

For example you could significantly up the weapon settle time when the player is being suppressed, so if he manages to get his weapon in a stable and supported position, he can still take a shot. Since the weapon would have a long settle time, that would also mean said enemy would have a longer time to throw lead at the player and his cover, possibly penetrating it and killing him. A system like this would strongly encourage a player to stay in cover and concealment, rather than just grabbing his rifle and jiggling it around like DH does.

And penetration will definitely not effectively "fake" fear of death.

It won't fake fear of death, it will just make you dead instead. Then it will be REALLY hard to return fire

 

[The Masta]

Ok I should have worded that differently. I mean I'd rather have a system where it makes it harder for the player (ala Ostfront) rather than taking control away (imo, DH).

This, exactly.