Do you miss this?

[GRIZZLY]

I find it a bit odd that many of the people complaining about the "Lack" of extended fire fights, talking about crawling more in RO1 than in RO2, and talking about how RO2 is all run & gun..... are also the exact same people complaining about how accurate people are with the weapons in RO2 and how often they end up not lasting very long and spending a lot of time waiting in spawn.

These are really two separate scenarios... The run and gun reduces these extended fire fights because people are sprinting through small houses and corridors at 40mph which totally ruins the cqc element. Not to mention half the team is mp40s or mkbs, which means they are just less people with classes suited for long sustained engagements.

The accuracy is an issue because its just so damn easy to kill people at medium-long engagement ranges. You just pop your head up and make eye contact and kill each other. This happened in Ro1 but with way less frequency. These long sustained engagements necessitate difficult kills. I know the Ro1 soldier had poor fitness, poor eye sight, and shaky hands... but the gameplay was way more raw and felt more more real than the gladiatorial arcade mumbo jumbo thats going on right now... especially in non-territory mode


You guys are totally right in that a lot of the pace issues might resolve if spawning is done differently.

 

[slyder73]

Do you see all the bullet impacts that actually don't hit anybody? You don't see that in RO2. There are no sustained firefights in RO2, suppression isn't being used as such in RO2, suppression is just a mere gimick in RO2, not really functional like it was in RO when you hit the deck instantly when you heard bullets wizzing by you and got the chance to either take cover or return fire or both. RO2 will just leave you waiting in a respawn list wondering how the hell you could get hit 5 seconds after your last respawn.

No, there are sustained firefights, all the time, of course not as BIG as in DH or even RO1, but it's very early in this games life. A one shot kill is just as much of a one shot kill from RO1 to RO2, it is not the game mechanics that are different, it is the current player base. This game is a month old'ish.

Keep in mind firefights are not the objective of the maps, the capzones are. Intense battles are only a side effect of a team actually working together to take a zone at the same time the other team works together to defend it.

Those firefights you are talking about will come, when the core base of players has been around long enough to know that VOIP is key to winning, communicate to attack or defend and if both teams do that the battle for the contested zone will be intense.

The game, meaning RO1 as well, was not, is not and should never be designed just to create big firefights. There are a dozen other arcadey BF or CoD style games out there now for that.

In this game, as you remember from DH and all the way back to RO1's first few months, it takes time. Let new maps come out, let a year go by and you will see the player base be the same veteran players plus a whole new crowd of players from RO2 who can't ever go back to arcadey kiddy games.

I miss those battles too, but I am patient, the map makers will get their hands on the SDK soon and the loads of new players not suited to the RO series will get sick of the game and go away in the next 6 months. Be patient.....those epic battles will come again, when the good teamwork oriented players who talk are what is left.

 

[GRIZZLY]

The game, meaning RO1 as well, was not, is not and should never be designed just to create big firefights. There are a dozen other arcadey BF or CoD style games out there now for that.

I see less fire fights in CoD and more lone wolves that happen to run into each other while sprinting around the same corner... BF has some but they're not intense just kinda aim shoot at each other

I miss those battles too, but I am patient, the map makers will get their hands on the SDK soon and the loads of new players not suited to the RO series will get sick of the game and go away in the next 6 months. Be patient.....those epic battles will come again, when the good teamwork oriented players who talk are what is left.

I hope so!!!

 

[Cyper]

It doesn't matter what people say; RO2 portray weaponhandling in a way most mainstream shooters do.

The only diffrent is that one bullet may kill you. And it's not about the precision of the bullets. It's about the superhuman ability to handle the weapons. The game in overall is obviously developed for a wider audience. I don't see why people deny that. Quickaim, stripped down command radial, focus on XP and 'weapon unlocks', special abilities, lockdown timer, simple weapon handling, practical buttons such as tactical view - just push and run for the objective. They even simplified the injury system before release. Changing maps won't remove these problems.

Copy the maps from RO2 and place it in RO1 and play the game as you played RO2 - and you would get your a$$ kicked so hard that not even google would be able to find it. Thing is, it would play out like this, it would play out as more slow-paced and more tactical simply because RO1 is completely unforgiving.


Will this be fixed in the future?

I don't know. I doubt TWI will go back and say ''Alright, the game was more focused on the mainstream. I guess we'll have to remove and remake what we just worked hard with to please the minority [al

 

[The Beast (nl)]

Yes i do miss it. I was the last of the mohenecans in DH. Suddenly
nobody played it anymore. And for ROost about 3 servers.

Without teamwork you couldn`t win the berlin map. That do i miss
in RO2, TEAMWORK.

 

[DesiQ]

You don't see it because maps in RO2 don't have ridiculous chokepoints like that bridge where the fighting is concentrated but rather many ways to get to the target with wide spread firefights.

This is exactly right. It's map design that most affects the kind of fight you have.

That said, I always take every chance to suggest that suppression should screw your aim up really really badly. Makes it more useful, makes spraying a building more useful, improves MG survivability.

 

[Lonestarranger]

DH Ardennes

DH Ardennes

Loved the DH Ardennes maps. Loved playing them all night and drinking German Beer

But, i really think RO2 is better and do not agree with your complaints.

There is a command and control system where a squad leader can actually designate a position for fire team to move to and can direct suppression. That is new and will lend to more realistic squad play once folks get use to it.

I, even more now have to rapidly seek cover when i hear bullets buzzing nearby. Actually have to also pay attention to the cover i am taking because a small picket fence is not bullet proof in RO2 as it was in RO1.

There is still combined arms operations, although i am looking forward to more armored vehicles.

The soldiers are more realistically modeled as are the weapons.

When soldiers are killed, they collapse if very realistic fashion way beyond RO1.

The Artillery fire is even more realistic and can be spotted by SLs. Not just the Platoon leader.

The battles still require teamwork to win and like i said, the new command system will eventually lead to squads fighting as part of a platoon rather than a group of guys just going at it as a group, with just coordinating on what objective they will take. The RO2 command and control system with some practice can lead to fire supppression and maneuver by fire teams as well as platoon leader control of squads. You could not do this in RO1 unless you were a Clan and well rehearsed.

I also like the wounding/bandaging system. you get hit and you do not know whether you are going to live or die initially. Not pefect system, but a good start.

i also like the talking from other soldiers such as when one is hit, etc. Not the headset talking which sounds like the person is in the bathroom and the topics can stray from having nothing to do with the game. That is why i turn it off.

You simply cannot run and gun and live long in this game just as was the case with RO1. And i do not know what folks are talking about with the weapons being too accurate. Perhaps it is because i stopped playing for a few years, but still find it no easy matter to kill someone. And again, the way those killed slump in MANY different ways is very realistic and more so than RO1.

i am sure that the Mod folks will come out to really build on this game as they did with RO1. It was the Mod community that made the game great and they will do here as well. I am looking forward to the realism mod and more tanks and maps.

And would love to see DH upgraded to RO2. Also, hope MOD folks do not simply stick to Stalingrad, but cover the entire period of fighting between the Russians and the Germans and even include Italian and Romanian troops.

 

[Mike 78]

I'm not sure what Red Orchestra you guys were playing, that had "long firefights with bullets flying around missing". The RO1 I played, if you stuck your head out, it'd get shot off within a second. There's a reason everyone spent a minute or two crawling up to cap zones, and it's not because they were admiring the dirt texture. The lack of zoom meant that engagement ranges were shorter, but the maps were correspondingly smaller as well. The DH hedgerow house map fits into about half of Spartanovka. An amazing cross-map shot in RO1 was 100 meters. That's barely the upper end of the average for RO2's outdoors areas.

If you're upset with the pace of the game, it's not the map size or the accuracy you should gripe about, but the death penalty. The real difference in RO1 was that spawn points were always pretty far back from the active cap zones, boosting the effective respawn time to well over a minute (or three!) most of the time. On the maps that wasn't the case, the high-risk stunts were just as common: the nonsense of RO2 Apartments is almost indistinguishable from the nonsense of RO1 Danzig.

You could walk 5 minutes in RO2 to the battle zone and still get instantly wasted from 150 meters away when you peak your head over a wall, no matter how carefull you are. It has nothing to do with map size or deathpenalty. RO had huge maps like Berenzina which is like 8 times bigger than spartanova. Firefights were also not at closer ranges in RO1. All that you are saying is just not true.

Long firefights are when the Allies try to take the bunker at strongpoint 3 at Hill 400. You could never see a fight like that with RO2 mechanics. You could be an mg or a couple of riflemen and hold a building against hordes of enemies like in DH raids, not in RO2. I disagree on everyting you say on this one.

 

[Mike 78]

No, there are sustained firefights, all the time, of course not as BIG as in DH or even RO1, but it's very early in this games life. A one shot kill is just as much of a one shot kill from RO1 to RO2, it is not the game mechanics that are different, it is the current player base. This game is a month old'ish.

Keep in mind firefights are not the objective of the maps, the capzones are. Intense battles are only a side effect of a team actually working together to take a zone at the same time the other team works together to defend it.

Those firefights you are talking about will come, when the core base of players has been around long enough to know that VOIP is key to winning, communicate to attack or defend and if both teams do that the battle for the contested zone will be intense.

The game, meaning RO1 as well, was not, is not and should never be designed just to create big firefights. There are a dozen other arcadey BF or CoD style games out there now for that.

In this game, as you remember from DH and all the way back to RO1's first few months, it takes time. Let new maps come out, let a year go by and you will see the player base be the same veteran players plus a whole new crowd of players from RO2 who can't ever go back to arcadey kiddy games.

I miss those battles too, but I am patient, the map makers will get their hands on the SDK soon and the loads of new players not suited to the RO series will get sick of the game and go away in the next 6 months. Be patient.....those epic battles will come again, when the good teamwork oriented players who talk are what is left.

If you deny that the shooting mechanics haven't changed since RO you just haven't played RO1 really much. You can't see the difference in the firefights in RO and RO2 than you just don't really know what you're talking about. There is a world of difference.

The recoil on the guns except for the MG is dumbed down in RO2 . The game centers your aim for you like in every other arcade game you mentioned. Because of this alone RO 2 stands that much closer to arcade shooters now. I even thought BF3's shooting mechanics were less forgiving than Ro2's and those are modern light weight guns with fancy scopes against steel and wooden guns in RO2. I think the player base is the last factor to blame for the ruined gameplay but it probably plays some role.

I think it's mostle the new people who think RO2's shooting mechanics are fine, just because they don't know any better.

 

[slyder73]

If you deny that the shooting mechanics haven't changed since RO you just haven't played RO1 really much. You can't see the difference in the firefights in RO and RO2 than you just don't really know what you're talking about. There is a world of difference.

The recoil on the guns except for the MG is dumbed down in RO2 . The game centers your aim for you like in every other arcade game you mentioned. Because of this alone RO 2 stands that much closer to arcade shooters now. I even thought BF3's shooting mechanics were less forgiving than Ro2's and those are modern light weight guns with fancy scopes against steel and wooden guns in RO2. I think the player base is the last factor to blame for the ruined gameplay but it probably plays some role.

I think it's mostle the new people who think RO2's shooting mechanics are fine, just because they don't know any better.

I played RO1 from week 1, through 5 years including the various mods right up until the beta for RO2 was released. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I don't see that much of a difference when you consider that the engine is different.

In fact just to be sure the past month or so hasn't warped my memory I just loaded up RO1 to compare. The shooting mechanics are not that different. The guns come quick up to iron sights and centered in both games equally.

The only differences would be the difference in the engine and I would say as a long time shooter of many of the real life versions of the in game guns that the new RO2 is the more realistic of the two. Where would you say there should be more recoil? Which gun, and why? They seem pretty close on to the real thing to me. THe rifles for sure, the MP40 for sure, the SVT for sure. I have not fired a PPSH, but firing my Tokarev pistol (same round) fast, I can see the PPSH may have more recoil but hard to tell not firing it; the 7.62 x 25 round is a hot one, much more of a bang than the smaller 9mm round the Germans used. THe MKB I've also not fired, but have fired a .308 at full auto and I can tell you it is not that hard to keep that big heavy M14 on target for the most part, the recoil in game pretty close to the MKB; it would be just as easy to keep the big heavy MKB firing a similar round on target.

Give a bit of time and anyone who is a regular will be an "expert" at being able to shoot all the guns in game regardless of any dumbing down or gearing up that some people or don't see. This is as it should be, the mechanics just add or take away time to get to this....and as I said, the way it was with RO1, when the map makers get to it, there will be a huge variety of maps that suit many more play styles. There will be less complaining then, and I imagine a lot less MKB's as the map makers and server admins have more say over realistic loadouts.

 

[Nikita]

While I agree that combat is a little more lethal at range than it should be, I just want to specify that a whole lot of missed shots does not qualify as a firefight. A firefight should be about exactly that--fire and maneuver, striving to outposition the enemy for a decisive advantage.

You do see some elements of this in RO2--I've been on teams where we've coordinated a flanking movement or assaulted a key position to dominate the battlefield. It's imperfect because teamwork is often absent in many servers, but the potential is there. A few tweaks and we might be there. Shift-zoom could be decreased to aid this, imo, because all too often, any movement is instantly spotted by the enemy. Tank MGs have to be curtailed in accuracy as well--you can't run into the open at all on Commissar's or Pavlov's without getting instantly mowed down...

Summing it all down to explosions and missed shots (which I'm sure wasn't what you were getting at, I know) would make Halo a game with gripping, realistic firefights.

 

[GRIZZLY]

\A firefight should be about exactly that--fire and maneuver, striving to outposition the enemy for a decisive advantage.

That's what you do before the firefight break outs.... The firefight itself should be interspersed moments of vulnerability/taking cover until after a few a shots you land that gloriously accurate kill and planets align...

Everyone is going on and on and on about aim time, sway, recoil, level design, load outs, and whatever... While this is all good and jolly I a prefer to think of it in simpler terms -

We are using a mouse button - not a Kar98k - and I have 100% accuracy clicking icons on my desktop. Landing a bolt action kill in RO is largely similar to clicking an icon (albeit smaller and moving)... But there needs to be SOMETHING to mitigate the ability to just casually point and click! Maybe it was the zoom, the sway, the recoil, the handling, the aim speed, WHATEVER... the point is that clicking a little moving target in Ro1 felt like I had actually fired a gun and made an accurate shot. In Ro2 I feel like I am aligning mouse and clicking on an icon.

in Ro1 the simple point and click insta-kill was a difficult and rewarding thing to achieve. In Ro2 it's pretty easy and it's pretty much the only thing you do all day. (The aforementioned strategic positioning becomes less important when the actual click and kill you are trying to achieve is easier)

Think about a basketball game between you and your pals in real life, then think about a basketball game on NBA 2k11 where everyone is Michael Jordan with maxed out accuracy, jump, stamina, etc. You just DON'T sink 3 pointers all day... Not even in the NBA...

Not every soldier is a 100% proficient marksman aiming at stationary targets. They are not Michael Jordan and they are not the in the proverbial NBA...Hell some of them don't even know how to play proverbial basketball.... They are drunk, sleep deprived, hungry, cold, sad, fragmented shells of 18 year old boys taking fire from the enemy, watching their best friends die, first considering the safety, AND THEY NEED TO MISS SOME GOD DAMN SHOTS WITH THEIR RIFLES LIKE THEY DID IN RO1

 

[CaptHawkeye]

Another thread of nostalgic wanking to older mods in the series? Wow, it even comes with subjective analysis!

We've never seen this before Batman!

 

[GRIZZLY]

Another thread of nostalgic wanking to older mods in the series? Wow, it even comes with subjective analysis!

We've never seen this before Batman!

I've never heard someone sarcastically act surprised by exclaiming Batman, Batman!

 

[Josef Nader]

I've never heard someone sarcastically act surprised by exclaiming Batman, Batman!

Holy hyperbole, Batman! What can we do to defend ourselves against the sarcasm?

 

[The Beast (nl)]

LOL!! This is just priceless!

Where are all the people who cry that RO2 is not RO1 is then? Why are they not playing it?

According to them they represent a large number of gamers, but they can't fill a 50 player server?

ROFLMAO!

I said that from the beginning. It isn`t fair to whine that ROost was/is better and that i know that for ROost were 3 servers filled and for DH none.

I really don`t understand those people.

 

[The Beast (nl)]

go troll somewhere else.

RO1 is better?

some of the epic uber realism feautres of RO1:getting shot makes you stumble upon an invisble wall, SMG's have the recoil of a bazooka and the only thing you can hit with them are birds,panzerfausts are thrown on the ground everywhere(reality at its best..) which makes tanks so easy to kill, alot of BAD maps where one team just die with no chance of actually doing anything and there are other stuff i cant remember now.

RO2 a dumbed down version of RO1? RO2 is a better game in gameplay,reality,graphics,maps and everything else you can think of.

Indeed i agree.

And ROost had in the beginning also small maps etc. The modders
made the game great to make for example large tankmaps etc.

 

[Mike 78]

that's what you do before the firefight break outs.... The firefight itself should be interspersed moments of vulnerability/taking cover until after a few a shots you land that gloriously accurate kill and planets align...

Everyone is going on and on and on about aim time, sway, recoil, level design, load outs, and whatever... While this is all good and jolly i a prefer to think of it in simpler terms -

we are using a mouse button - not a kar98k - and i have 100% accuracy clicking icons on my desktop. Landing a bolt action kill in ro is largely similar to clicking an icon (albeit smaller and moving)... But there needs to be something to mitigate the ability to just casually point and click! Maybe it was the zoom, the sway, the recoil, the handling, the aim speed, whatever... The point is that clicking a little moving target in ro1 felt like i had actually fired a gun and made an accurate shot. In ro2 i feel like i am aligning mouse and clicking on an icon.

In ro1 the simple point and click insta-kill was a difficult and rewarding thing to achieve. In ro2 it's pretty easy and it's pretty much the only thing you do all day. (the aforementioned strategic positioning becomes less important when the actual click and kill you are trying to achieve is easier)

think about a basketball game between you and your pals in real life, then think about a basketball game on nba 2k11 where everyone is michael jordan with maxed out accuracy, jump, stamina, etc. You just don't sink 3 pointers all day... Not even in the nba...

Not every soldier is a 100% proficient marksman aiming at stationary targets. They are not michael jordan and they are not the in the proverbial nba...hell some of them don't even know how to play proverbial basketball.... They are drunk, sleep deprived, hungry, cold, sad, fragmented shells of 18 year old boys taking fire from the enemy, watching their best friends die, first considering the safety, and they need to miss some god damn shots with their rifles like they did in ro1

this!!!

 

[Cyper]

That's what you do before the firefight break outs.... The firefight itself should be interspersed moments of vulnerability/taking cover until after a few a shots you land that gloriously accurate kill and planets align...

Everyone is going on and on and on about aim time, sway, recoil, level design, load outs, and whatever... While this is all good and jolly I a prefer to think of it in simpler terms -

We are using a mouse button - not a Kar98k - and I have 100% accuracy clicking icons on my desktop. Landing a bolt action kill in RO is largely similar to clicking an icon (albeit smaller and moving)... But there needs to be SOMETHING to mitigate the ability to just casually point and click! Maybe it was the zoom, the sway, the recoil, the handling, the aim speed, WHATEVER... the point is that clicking a little moving target in Ro1 felt like I had actually fired a gun and made an accurate shot. In Ro2 I feel like I am aligning mouse and clicking on an icon.

in Ro1 the simple point and click insta-kill was a difficult and rewarding thing to achieve. In Ro2 it's pretty easy and it's pretty much the only thing you do all day. (The aforementioned strategic positioning becomes less important when the actual click and kill you are trying to achieve is easier)

Think about a basketball game between you and your pals in real life, then think about a basketball game on NBA 2k11 where everyone is Michael Jordan with maxed out accuracy, jump, stamina, etc. You just DON'T sink 3 pointers all day... Not even in the NBA...

Not every soldier is a 100% proficient marksman aiming at stationary targets. They are not Michael Jordan and they are not the in the proverbial NBA...Hell some of them don't even know how to play proverbial basketball.... They are drunk, sleep deprived, hungry, cold, sad, fragmented shells of 18 year old boys taking fire from the enemy, watching their best friends die, first considering the safety, AND THEY NEED TO MISS SOME GOD DAMN SHOTS WITH THEIR RIFLES LIKE THEY DID IN RO1

I don't have to say anything more than this: Great post. You kinda summed it all up very good.

 

[Stormer]

I miss not being killed by players insta going to IS while running.