Discourse on overpoweredness

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/
Status
Not open for further replies.

Private_Joker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 20, 2009
107
40
0
I was going to write this as part of an argument in I&S, but it applies well generally so I'd like to make it a separate discussion.

Overpoweredness of weapons, of class strength, of any part of a shooter, is usually a notion reserved for deathmatch style games where the victim is usually the one who pipes up about their unfair disadvantage. KF seems like it should be an exception since the experiments will never whine about their disadvantage, but it's not.

Fact is, when a weapon or class is overpowered, it becomes an awkward pressure on players to use that weapon or class, precisely because to do otherwise is to impose a disadvantage on your teammates.

For example, I feel like an idiot playing medic sometimes because I know that we'd be surviving if I'd just switch to my lvl5 Support. I also feel foolish standing next to a berzerker with a chainsaw, because to shoot anything in that situation would be a waste of ammo.

Classes and weapons should conform to the tastes of the player or to the characteristics of the challenge. Overpoweredness is when particular weapons or classes are so strong that alternatives are categorically a negative on play experience.

Note to developers: nerfing power or accuracy is almost always the worst way to balance weapons and classes, in my experience. In general, adding challenge in the way of the real-life skills of the player (timing, aim, etc.) is the best way to balance.

Cheers,
-Joker
 

Bio666

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 10, 2009
788
2
0
Fact is, when a weapon or class is overpowered, it becomes an awkward pressure on players to use that weapon or class, precisely because to do otherwise is to impose a disadvantage on your teammates.

No, I dont feel any awkward smashing specimen by my Support lv 5. Because I know that without me, they wil have less chance of survival. If they want to play rambo, fine. But the guy who weid the door to slow down specimen, so that "rambo" can get healed, is me. I dont see it as "imposing disadvantage".

For example, I feel like an idiot playing medic sometimes because I know that we'd be surviving if I'd just switch to my lvl5 Support. I also feel foolish standing next to a berzerker with a chainsaw, because to shoot anything in that situation would be a waste of ammo.

I dont afraid using medic because I know, when the time come, even berzerker could use a meat sheld and a hand to heal him. I dont feel foolish standing next to a berzerker, because I know they're berzerker, literally, so they would likely forget what comming behind.

Classes and weapons should conform to the tastes of the player or to the characteristics of the challenge. Overpoweredness is when particular weapons or classes are so strong that alternatives are categorically a negative on play experience.

Now, I agree that overpowered class isn't cool. But as a matter of fact, I dont see any overpowered here. Everything has time a place, be patience, and you'll "rise and shine". If you play MMORPG, you'll understand this :)

Note to developers: nerfing power or accuracy is almost always the worst way to balance weapons and classes, in my experience. In general, adding challenge in the way of the real-life skills of the player (timing, aim, etc.) is the best way to balance.

You must be kidding me, right? Aim for the head, wait until it bowls, etc. Aint that reallife skill?
Cheers,
-Joker

Cheers.
 

NitroBullet

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 4, 2009
191
44
0
Sigh... Another QQ thread about "lolOPness"

What next? WEAPON JAMS?

The weapons are fine. Berserker is fine. Commando is fine. Sharpshooter is fine. Fieldmedic is fine. Support Specialist is fine. Firebug is fine.

Field Medic isn't meant for full offense by the way. It's meant for healing your team up and a bit of support fire. Support Specialist can't heal as well as a Field Medic, and Field Medic can't attack like a Support Specialist.

If anything, give the L.A.W. a boost. Atleast I would've supported that QQ thread.

police.jpg


Move along there's nothing to see here.
 

Private_Joker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 20, 2009
107
40
0
The berzerker and support were just examples. Good job missing my point.

Please lock the thread, it's got nowhere to go from here if people are already trying to make it about specifics.

-Joker
 

Ben Carmine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 9, 2009
34
0
0
The man makes good points, but inevitably people will only see "nerf myfavouriteclass" and ***** endlessly.

Oh, well...
 

NitroBullet

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 4, 2009
191
44
0
The man makes good points, but inevitably people will only see "nerf myfavouriteclass" and ***** endlessly.

Oh, well...

People usually want to buff their favorite class...

@the OP, if you want to know which weapons are Overpowered and what not, play with that DM mod a bit. (The one Blackcheetah made)

When I played around with it, I noticed the only OP weapon was the Crossbow... But it has its exceptions in PvE.
 

Bio666

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 10, 2009
788
2
0
Sigg... Please, lock it.
You give an argument, you support it by your examples. So how could I go against it? By counter your own examples. That's how true logic work, mate. Chech this out, counterexample.
So, if you give premises to argue, everyone know it's weak, because of lacking of evidences to support it. You give examples, that will complete the argument.
I argue you, I use my example to counter yours. Then this comes in play: " people are already trying to make it about specifics". Fine, mates. Let just remove the "specifics" part in your argument, and see what's left of it.

Oh, and btw, if it's not just support and berzerker, then who gonna be overpowered next? Commando? Medic? or Firebug? Dude, I'm sure the partiarch is waaay toooo oveeerrrpowweered :)

I dont know what is your I&S, and I dont care much, but as a fellow player, I can give you a piece of advice. When argue, use example, and be specific.

Edit: NitroBullet, I think I'll take your advice. Good one, mate ;)
 
Last edited:

emotion666

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 22, 2009
185
1
0
People usually want to buff their favorite class...

@the OP, if you want to know which weapons are Overpowered and what not, play with that DM mod a bit. (The one Blackcheetah made)

When I played around with it, I noticed the only OP weapon was the Crossbow... But it has its exceptions in PvE.


thats because its the most damaging weapon ever, but I still prefer bullpup for masses of clots over xbow anyday
 

Flood

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2009
2
0
0
No, I dont feel any awkward smashing specimen by my Support lv 5.

While you're right for the most part, you're mis-reading what he said here. Of course YOU don't feel awkward using Support, his point was, everyone else feels awkward for NOT using support. A better counter-example would've been, "I don't feel awkward using commando because when that support guy has expended all the ammunition in his shotgun, just fired both barrels of his hunting shotgun, and there's a wave of guys backing him into a corner, my bullpup fires fast enough and reloads fast enough to give him enough breathing room to reload. Plus I can see stalkers and health, so nyeah. :p:p"

He does have a bit of a point though. Maybe not so much that the classes do indeed need balancing but more in the fact that a lot of people perceive support to be the only class worth using. Maybe they do that because they need to expand their horizons, or maybe because there really is a balancing issue, but the sentiment still exists.

For example, virtually every patriarch strategy I've seen is, "OK guys, evryone go support and buy hunting shotties. Anyone who doesn't is stupid and will suffer abuse." :rolleyes: (Though recently I've noticed people are realizing the crossbow owns and are substituting sharpshooter for support.) Of course, personally I just ignore that nonsense and stick with my commando. When the Patriarch stealths everyone on my team follows my lead and shoots in the same direction I'm shooting. It's awesome. ;)
 

Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
3,879
480
83
Sub-Level 12
Funny, a friend of mine the other night just said "KF needs weapon jams,"

After Wave 6, I stop seeing issues of OPness. Part of it is people with Rank 5 who still play normal.....that's just a waste of everyone's time. Or people who go Rank 1 on Hard...Because damn near everything in KF scales (HP, Damage, Specimen count, item respawn...you name it) OPness is a relative concept to all the other factors included.
 

thrash242

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 18, 2009
437
4
0
Funny, a friend of mine the other night just said "KF needs weapon jams,"

I like the realism of weapons jamming, although it shouldn't happen often with properly maintained weapons. Maybe the ones you pick up off the ground jam more often?

If certain weapons were just less reliable and jammed more often, it could be another balancing factor between weapons. Guns could start jamming more the longer you use them without cleaning them, but I don't see players having time to break down and clean their weapons between waves, though, so I'm not sure jamming would make sense given the short time-frame of a game (assuming the trader sells clean, maintained weapons).

I think weapon cleaning and jamming would make sense in some sort of persistent-world game (single-player or multi-player), but I'm not sure it would in a game like KF. Brand new or well-maintained guns shouldn't just arbitrarily jam unless they're an innately unreliable gun, and guns like that aren't generally in wide use by military or police.

It would definitely add some stress and realism, but if it was just arbitrarily random and players had no control of how often it happened (by being able to clean it, for instance), it'd probably frustrate players more than anything.

I liked in Far Cry 2 how found weapons were generally in crappy condition and jammed a lot.

But then, I'm a realism/gun nut.
 
Last edited:

Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
3,879
480
83
Sub-Level 12
I think I'd prefer no gun jamming. In terms of what KF is, jamming is just another random factor that will get you killed. There's not a whole lot of value in it beyond that, other than differentiating weapon reliability. Considering you're shooting non-stop on most levels past wave 4...I think it's a handicap we probably don't need.
 

Ben Carmine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 9, 2009
34
0
0
Just add weapon cleaning for 80 quid at the trader. She gives it a... a... bath, hell i dunno what guns like who cares anyway an then it's good as new!
 

Wolfdust

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 24, 2009
236
9
0
Massachusetts, USA
Jamming strikes me as unrealistic, actually. Even weapons who have a rep for it wouldn't jam in the timespan a game takes place in. The only weapon that would put anywhere near enough rounds through it warrant a jam is the bullpup. And that's only if you empty all your mags like, every round.

Not to mention most of the guns in KF are the sort that won't jam or won't jam easily (pump shottie, double barrel break-action shottie, lever action, a crossbow, flamethrower).
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
3,996
775
113
REMEMBER, THAT LEVEL 5 PERKS = SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYING ON SUICIDAL, YOU NEED EVERY PERK WORKING TOGETHER FOR SUICIDAL, and yes im too damn tired to uncaps all that...
 

IS-234

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 23, 2009
234
0
0
Sir that statement is one of few things that actually needs to be in caps lock in this forum
 
Status
Not open for further replies.