Disappointments with New Update

[IceStorm]

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/KillingFloor/achievements/

something to think about: More people have 'Mr. Perky' then any of the Long/Suicidal achievements. Meaning that before the patch, Some people could not beat suicidal even with every perk maxed. Is making the game easier really a bad thing?

 

[chungmasta]

Well depends what the game sets out to do. I once thought that some perks should be skill based. Others don't have to be but some should. The more people achieve a perk, the less of a big deal it is. I think the fact that so few actually go the perk, makes me give that much more respect to the few who can actually achieve them. Making it easier makes it so much less so. The word suicidal in itself seems like it should be really really hard.

I mean if suicidal's too hard, that why Hard is there. Originally the game felt like it was meant to be a good balance between challenge and fun. Now it's more fun than challenge. Sucks for those people who like to be challenged while having fun.

Like I said, I have a feeling that they're gonna add something beyond suicidal to make up for it.

 

[Sgt Jigglebelly]

the new weapons are awesome, though yes, they do seem a tad overpowered. but i'm sure TWI will tweak them in the coming weeks based on player feedback

 

[chungmasta]

They are fun to play with though. Can't argue with that. It's certainly a prompt response from TWI to the question: "What if we had....?"

 

[Moosecat]

I guess the only thing that bothers me about this patch is...

The game is completely unplayable for a good portion of its playerbase.

 

[HaYHaYHaY]

maybe they can make it so... when u're in a certain class, u buy with discount.. and also sell with discount...? regarding the money problem... that should fix a lot of the money problem i assume... or at least part of it...

to be honest, i know about the buying/selling exploit but i never tried it... figured it wouldn't be fun even if i know how to do so... it's kinda like... buying a fun game and making it not fun yourself... tho i must admit.. they should totally stop it... although players should be capable of not resorting to such method...

 

[pez]

I think that the pipe bombs destroy the challenge of flesh pounds on a lot of custom maps. But they're fair on open maps.

The automatic shotgun is just ridiculous. I loved the tactical challenge of the old shotgun- zig zagging and jumping to time every blast for maximum penetration. The new shotgun you just hold down fire and mow everything down in half a second.

The M14 is really cool but I don't like it. You shouldn't be able to kill massive numbers of specimens by shooting them in the torso. I remember the good old days of scoring fatal headshots one after another with the lever action. Now headshots are irrelevant and the challenge of being a sharp shooter is gone.

 

[Nenjin]

I think people had a lot of assumptions about what this update was supposed to be.

The assumption, at least for me, was that the update would add variety to the top tier of weapons in KF, and that lvl 6 perks were going to get an incremental increase in power.

The reality is this: This update is the beginning of KF's prestige system, and the new weapons represent an entirely new tier of performance.

Look at this way. All the new weapons are SO expensive, you will almost never get them UNLESS you are a) playing the perk b) have the perk leveled up to at least two c) someone buys the weapons on the cheap and gives them to you or c) everyone throws you every dollar they make in game.

The update is designed to give higher ranked people advantages that lower ranked people, not playing the perk, won't get. Before, a sharpshooter could buy the DB, the best weapon for support, by the end of the game. It may not have been as powerful in his hands as in the hands of a support player...but it still had a huge spread and the support player wasn't quite as unique in his group. Now...you'll know who the support player is, because he's the one killing God with the AA12.


I think the perk upgrades are also setting the scene for how the future of KF is going to play out. To me it seems like it's being done in an MMO fashion. The perk bonuses are in the shape of a pyramid. At the bottom, you get alllll this stuff, and every level up you get progressively less until, at the top of the pyramid, you're getting a new weapon to spawn with and that's about it.

Plus there's the whole recoloring of the perk icons. I predict that future updates aren't going to add much to the perk stats...but will continue to add single, powerful advantages (like heavily discounting the most powerful, and the most ridiculously expensive weapons in game, or if we're lucky...single new abilities that rock.) This is kind of how MMOs work. They give you LOTS of crap early on to get you interested, and then the rate you get advantages at slows dramatically, and you start working towards single, powerful upgrades as a sign of your l33+ness.

 

[chungmasta]

Having level 3 or 4 in all classes really isn't a big deal. So that means affording top tier weapons really isn't that big of a deal. Like I said, higher levels can get top tier very quickly and easily. I wonder then why even bother with other guns? My problem is that before, the game rewarded more skill than pure xp grind. Now it heavily favors those who have more time to stat pad. Also it made the other guns actually worthwhile to use not just a place holder till you get top tier guns.

If they wanted to make a game with a prestige system, then they should make a game like that and not make people think it's a solid and unique fps. If I wanted to play a game that's solidly level based, I'd play borderlands or WoW or a countless slew of games that are more xp than skill.

The game's original design did not seem at least to me something that would be so heavily level and item based. Unfortunately I enjoyed playing the game because it was a very sleek and subtle hybrid with the perfect amount of balance.

 

[Nenjin]

Having level 3 or 4 in all classes really isn't a big deal. So that means affording top tier weapons really isn't that big of a deal. My problem is that before, the game rewarded more skill than pure xp grind. Now it just rewards xp grind, ignoring skill.

Sorry, but that seems like a blanket statement. I know what you mean, but skill isn't anywhere close to being irrelevant in KF. There was a lot of dying last night. A lot.

The game's original design did not seem at least to me something that would be so heavily level and item based. Unfortunately I enjoyed playing the game because it was a very sleek and subtle hybrid with the perfect amount of balance.

Did you play the original mod? If so, I can see why you'd feel this way. But KF has been setting the player base up for this, ever since they made the decision to have perks be a scale-able thing.

To me KF balances between difficulty and perk level. I don't *think* people with Rank 6 are intended to play Normal difficulty. Hell, I didn't think Rank 5's had any business in Normal difficulty games to begin with. I think if you want to keep skill important in KF, you have to continually play higher difficulties. TWI themselves already realized this. Normal now has more specimens per player and is generally a little harder.

I don't think that makes 'skill' irrelevant. Normally, in RPGs, leveled and scaled systems start to bore me because I feel like I know what to expect and the challenge feels directly proportional to the numbers and not how I play. But this isn't Diablo. You have to aim, you have to know the levels, you have to use your judgment and you have to be quick, regardless of what level you are or what gun you're using. That's skill, and it's still an element of this game.

So I try to look on the bright side of the whole scaled experience. There could only be one difficulty level to try, with 6 different perks, and three tiers of weapons each. Were that the case, by now I'd have already tried all the weapons, gotten familiar with how tough the game has gotten and started to get 'bored' all on the first night. Instead, I have a lot to try out, to look forward to, to experiment with and to get good at. So at least for me, the scaled nature of KF plus the fact it's a FPS means it can last me a long, long time before I feel like there's nothing left to do.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

At least you get to play with the new update!

A lot of us can't even have a look at the new stuff since the update keeps freezing Killing Floor.

 

[chungmasta]

Yeah. Saying it's pure grind rather than skill is a bit excessive on my part. It just feels like the scales have tipped more in favor of items than skill. I suppose more to my personal disliking than anything.

Personally, before the patch I had most everything level 4 and 5 and was very far from being bored, because playing hard and suicidal like that I had to definitely rely much more on my team's cohesion and everyone understanding their roles. Though high perks were important if not necessary in suicidal, it boiled down to skill and tactics at that point.

I agree with you that the higher the level, the more difficult the setting should be. But the problem is that the ceiling is getting awfully close. I'm afraid that to compensate for suicidal being the new hard, there's going to be a need for something else to replace suicidal.

Also, it feels like there's less strategy involved in picking weapon load outs. Like I said before, I picked weapons that complimented each other and that always made the game interesting. Now it feels like you have to pick tier 3 and something else. Just seemed like there was more variety before. Before there was no end all be all weapon for some classes versus the sniper rifle, auto shottie, scar. Sharpshooter used to have very interesting combinations like deagle/lever, deagle/xbow, dualie/deagle. Now it just feels like tier 3 + something. Support had a crazy combination of loads that were viable mixing and matching shotguns with rifles and commando weapons.

I guess my frustration is motivated by a whole new can of worms being opened up all of a sudden that messed with something that I thought was very well balanced.

 

[chungmasta]

At least you get to play with the new update!

A lot of us can't even have a look at the new stuff since the update keeps freezing Killing Floor.

Yeah I know what you mean. I noticed a lot of servers have vanished due to the update I'm guessing due to compatibility issues. At least I know that TWI is probably already trying to fix those and that's more than I can say for pretty much any other game I've bought.

 

[Nenjin]

But the problem is that the ceiling is getting awfully close. I'm afraid that to compensate for suicidal being the new hard, there's going to be a need for something else to replace suicidal.

Well people have been clamoring for an "impossible" mode. Some are not going to be happy until there is a mode that just can't be beaten. Believe me, there are many more variables TWI can work with to increase difficulty. Just removing clots as the base spawn, and adding more husks, sirens, scrakes and FPs to compensate would make for a higher level of difficulty. The ceiling seems close...but they haven't even tried for impossible yet.

Also, it feels like there's less strategy involved in picking weapon load outs. Like I said before, I picked weapons that complimented each other and that always made the game interesting....snip

Well, it has only been one day and I don't think anyone can claim to be totally familiar with how Tier 3 weapons jive with the game now. I see what you're saying though, and I agree to a lesser extent. Again, this is the very start of something larger by TWI. I truly think the Tier 3 weapons are intended for people at Rank 5 or higher. It may only seem like there's fewer choices now, because there's only one choice at Tier 3 for each perk. When more guns are added, you'll be making the same decisions with Tier 3 weapons as you were making for Tier 2.

Plus, just GETTING a Tier 3 load out requires some thinking and strategy. At Rank 3, in the middle of the kill count for the team, you struggle to get a Tier 3 weapon because you still have to buy ammo, armor and weapons to stay effective and make money. That's added a new element to the game for me...because it was guaranteed I'd have a T2 weapon by the end of the game before the update.

I think it's easy to focus on the Tier 3 weapons and feel like you have less choices. Again I'm reminded of content updates for MMOs, and how the same thing usually happens there. The new outshines the old for a while until players learn how to mix them together.

 

[gusone]

I've only just tried a new weapon now and it was the SCAR. I had it for precisley 90 seconds until I died horribly and only got it because I sold someones AK who left and ran back to the trader. For a level 4 in most perks they remain a distant dream and incentive to get them. It was nice while I had it.

 

[chungmasta]

Yeah. You might be right Nenjin. Like I said before, I'm going to have to try playing for a few more hours to understand the overarching plan. The MMO analogy does carry over in some aspects, but if you look at a lot of MMOs, the new has a tendency to outshine the old and stay that way (Diablo 2, World of Warcraft, Borderlands, Neverwinter Nights, etc) unless the designers go out of the way to make the old weapons more relevant.

But arguably getting a tier 3 does take some adjustment, just not a lot. I mean on hard, rounds 1, 2, 3 you don't need body armor I mean yeah it helps, but with a decent team it's not necessary. With level 5 you start lever action, you can eventually sell that. Wave 3 or 4 depending on your kill count, I don't see it being too out of your way to afford body armor and the tier 3. This is assuming you don't find any weapons and no one gives you money either.

If TWI does intend on adding more and more to this game, it will be interesting to say the least. Adding more tier 3 weapons and adjusting difficulty seems like a dangerous thing to me, but yeah. It'll be interesting to see where they take the game next.

 

[pez]

As a sharpshooter I can get the M14 on wave 2. It's cheap and the xbow you spawn with (at level 6 at least) sells for a lot. Once I have the M14 I never need to switch weapons for the rest of the game, and I hardly pay attention to headshots.

Man killing floor was so awesome when sharpshooters had to backpedal around the map with a lever action, using their skill to put the little bullets somewhere that they'll do good damage. Sharpshooter should be the hardest class, not the easiest. They should be weak with high accuracy not tanks with high accuracy.

 

[Tiki-Dog]

the new class.... Yes it's cool and yes, it pwns. It does have crazy splash damage (for good and bad) and reduced ammo to make up for it. But it just feels... Unnecessary and targeted towards the crowd that wants things to just blow up.

who doesnt want to blow things up?

 

[kingkong]

I kind of agree that some of the new stuff is sort of a noobservice to even out the skill curve in the game.

BUT like gusone points out, some of you sound like you are considering this only from a normal mode perspective. in hard and suicidal getting your hands on those weapons is a totally different story, where you would actually need them as well. this also serves to make those difficulties more playable imo, and could help us out with our little wipefest problem. give it some time and try to take in the big picture.