Dear TWI.... [Long post, get a comfoftable seat and a cup of hot cocoa]
- Thread starter rabirland
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rabirland;n2323833 said:
So true. I'd TLDR you for a single thing done wrong; separating a single community into two kills the point of game series in one shot.
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rabirland;n2323876 said:
I have a not insignificant amount of hours in both games. I can tell the difference between a good player and a bad player. We play as a team because it's more fun and has allowed us to become increasingly more efficient at it. Everyone knows their job, everyone knows where to be, everyone knows the strengths of their weapons and the weaknesses of the zeds and hell, even our Firebugs know not to deal with Scrakes and Fleshpounds.
The good news for you is that you can still play KF1.
RawrUK;n2323878 said:
Uhhm, not to be that guy, but why? Every perk can easily kill any ZED, even SC or FP. There is no "where to be" or "what to do" in KF2. All you do is run and shoot, an bumm you kill everything. You CAN play "tactically" but its just useless and has no point in KF2. Sure you can enjoy "roleplaying" but it has no primary reason aside from the feeling.
But then again: Wouldn't it feel better if taking down a big ZED would actually be an achievement? Not just spraying it without any aiming, knowing that it will die anyway? Wouldn't it feel better if your roleplaying wouldn't be just "playing"?
Zakxaev68;n2323877 said:
Completely re-designing a game with no connection to the prequel is killing the series too. Sine whats the point of naming it Killing Floor, if it is not a Killing Floor? They could call it "Left 4 Dead Copy, but without story, lore, fun, challenge, or anything" too.
EDIT: Thre is no "single community" (sadly). There is one community who likes KF2, and there is another who prefer the old Killing Floor.
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RawrUK;n2323883 said:Ok, I'm out. Enjoy your games
Ok, thanks. BTW from your comment I assume you don't agree. But it's your problem that you cant drind down a Tier 3 ZED with any perk. That doesn't make the game hard, just because you can't play it.
They should add a gamemode called 'classic' that can be endless or 5/8/11 waves where it plays more like KF1.
Also Tripwire should officially add back all or atleast most of the classic KF1 maps.
Also Tripwire should officially add back all or atleast most of the classic KF1 maps.
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I get your point and I would agree with most of them. Just for your information I have almost 700 hours in KF 1 and over 1000 hours in KF 2.
I have builds for almost every perk which can more or less solo handle a game, although it is not easy with some perks (which I manly choose with good teams), but most of the time I just pick something that works even if my team whipes completely. In KF 1 that was the zerk, in KF 2 it is also the zerk, but you can do it with other classes as well.
At the moment I play mainly for dailies and it gets boring quite quickly. There is no real difference between soloing and playing as a team because most of the time I do whatever I like and it works. It's not like I want to be an asshole, it is more like there is no real fun or benefit in sticking with other players in many cases, because the game is so easy to handle solo even in 6 player games. There are some situations in which **** gets real, but most of the time everyone is doing his ****.
When I think back to KF1 times (I no longer play it) I remember very intense gameplay were you had your job and you had to do it right. Even if it was holding a single entrance as zerker, when someone fucked up the whole team whiped out.
This no longer happens, if **** hits the fan you just sprint away and kite the remaining zeds until the wave is over. The only thing that stops you doing that is stupid husk teleports spawning right in a door which you cannot pass without dying. That is what I call artificial difficulty and it is not really a challenge.
Until today I have not managed all maps on hoe in KF1, doing that in KF2 takes only a few hours for each map, once it is out.
You might wonder why I keep playing KF2 if it is that bad. It is not that bad, it is good in many aspects. But there are many things which would improve the need for teamplay and there are a lot of voices out there like OP, but I believe Tripwire does not want to achieve that goal. They are aiming for a casual friendly action shooter.
I have builds for almost every perk which can more or less solo handle a game, although it is not easy with some perks (which I manly choose with good teams), but most of the time I just pick something that works even if my team whipes completely. In KF 1 that was the zerk, in KF 2 it is also the zerk, but you can do it with other classes as well.
At the moment I play mainly for dailies and it gets boring quite quickly. There is no real difference between soloing and playing as a team because most of the time I do whatever I like and it works. It's not like I want to be an asshole, it is more like there is no real fun or benefit in sticking with other players in many cases, because the game is so easy to handle solo even in 6 player games. There are some situations in which **** gets real, but most of the time everyone is doing his ****.
When I think back to KF1 times (I no longer play it) I remember very intense gameplay were you had your job and you had to do it right. Even if it was holding a single entrance as zerker, when someone fucked up the whole team whiped out.
This no longer happens, if **** hits the fan you just sprint away and kite the remaining zeds until the wave is over. The only thing that stops you doing that is stupid husk teleports spawning right in a door which you cannot pass without dying. That is what I call artificial difficulty and it is not really a challenge.
Until today I have not managed all maps on hoe in KF1, doing that in KF2 takes only a few hours for each map, once it is out.
You might wonder why I keep playing KF2 if it is that bad. It is not that bad, it is good in many aspects. But there are many things which would improve the need for teamplay and there are a lot of voices out there like OP, but I believe Tripwire does not want to achieve that goal. They are aiming for a casual friendly action shooter.
Coffee009;n2323912 said:
I agreed with this idea early in the topic but a good point was then made -> doing this would just divide the small community KF/KF2 has. I'm kind of thankful versus has been a failure, since we avoided that issue entirely.
infntnub;n2323932 said:I agreed with this idea early in the topic but a good point was then made -> doing this would just divide the small community KF/KF2 has. I'm kind of thankful versus has been a failure, since we avoided that issue entirely.
KF 2 has average ~3-5K player. Splitting it (let's say in half) would end up with the same player count as KF1 had for years (1,5-3K). And since we always had fun in KF2 it is trivial that you would always find a match in KF2...... If tripwire would add listen servers again.
rabirland;n2323882 said:
Point I said splitting audience multiple directions defeats the purpose of evolving; guys at the tripwire office do think otherwise. I think game's good enough only we lack good balance on guns/modes, be it golden then we have proper balancing. Believe me, I finished KF-Foundry an hour ago, most sick team of 5 randoms, duke it out up on L3, helping each other welding, doing big zed shifts. Stoked to play in such a good team, game's something else then.
I've come to enjoy KF2 much more than the old KF1.
Where as KF1 looked more gritty and scary, KF2 looks a lot more polished and has better graphics; of course that's due to updated engine software though. But you can still make the maps in the game look hellish after turning every zed in a 5 mile radius into paste, and it gets better once you figure out how to edit the gore settings in the KFGame file. Some still want that old move theme slasher feeling, which I don't mind, but I get more out of seeing zed corpses and pieces lying on the ground with the walls and ceiling painting with their blood in vivid detail.
As for gameplay...I'll be honest. I probably have way more hours with KF2 than 1. For crying out loud, the second game has a shove function that the first game lacked; and keep in mind it came out around the same time L4D2 did. If you were grabbed by a clot and didnt kill him quick, you were essentially screwed. Not to mention the only way to run quicker was to hold your knife out. In my opinion that doesn't make much sense, since you're still carrying the same amount of weight no matter what you have out. Plus, it kinda makes you a bit vulnerable since you have to change weapons of you need to shoot something; not to mention to even use your flashlight, you have to have your pistol or whatever weapon its attached to out. Not very fun in dark areas where your best weapon (if it doesn't have a flashlight) would be more useful. The second game fixed those by finally adding the shove function so those clots can piss off, the ability to sprint being tied to a key, and a body flashlight.
Then, we have the grinding. KF1's grinding system was terrible. You had to do specific condition to level up, or otherwise you couldn't. Welding doors as a support consistently became a real chore, and the commando had the infamous issue of having to kill X stalkers (which we all know was hard when your teammates wind up killing them before you do). You'd be likely stuck at a certain level for a few weeks of things didn't go your way. Sure, getting a higher tiered weapon made things kinda worth it, but that's questionable. In KF2, it was much more streamlined where all you had to do was play a perk for a week to reach 25, and along the way you could pick certain perk skills that could better suit your playstyle. Oh, and the best part? Doing certain objectives or killing certain zeds counted as bonus XP. In short, just playing the game guaranteed you leveling up, and you could reach as high as level 10 within 2 days.
I would say perk skills replaced the notion of starting with a higher tiered weapon when you spawn in. Getting a grenade launcher when you spawn as a demo is nice and saves dosh, but zed time skills can be a real game changer for almost any perk.
Now, as far as the zeds, stalkers, crawlers, and sirens are still as annoying as ever. Clots are a bit better and the three variants make it a little interesting. Gorefiends were extremely annoying until you could finally interrupt their blender attack. Can't say much about the bloat, but the husk is effectively the bane of everyone's existence if you don't know where he is. As for the big ones, sure, the roars give them away when they spawn; but as far as exact location, they're still ambiguous (usually right around the corner...). They're also more dangerous than in the first game since stun locking them is no longer viable with a zerk, not that it was rewarding in the first place, and they make it harder for the player to hit their head once they start to rage. Fleshpounds will always rage no matter what you do, and the fact they can now spawn enraged makes them even more dangerous.
However, one good thing to note is that all zeds can activately attack each other if you trick them into crossing their firing line, especially with husks and bloats. You can't say it's not amusing to watch two or 3 husks trying to roast each other and one ends up suiciding to kill them all.
Oh, and about the whole thing with 'fire on big zeds'....
Large zeds are big on fire resistance. The only weapons that could effectively take care of them were the microwave gun and the husk cannon, but they got nerfed and aren't as useful as they used to be. While setting one on fire does throw him off your team's back for a few seconds, it does ruin the shots of those trying to end him. That's why firebugs usually don't deal with big zeds. Besides, they get more out of killing everything that's NOT a big zed.
Oh, and before I forget, there's the maps with this game. Just about all of them were designed with some level of run and gun play. KF1 was filled with corridor maps that made it easy to find a decent spot and camp, but in this game, that strategy is mitigated with the fact zeds can come from almost anywhere like vents or sewer pipes. If you need to abandon your hold, it's best to do so before you get overwhelmed. Maps like Nuked and outpost are pretty good examples. I guess TW dove into the original concept with the holdout maps like Krampus Lair, Descent, and Powercore, but there's still some room for you to run around.
In short, KF2 expanded on things that KF1 lacked or could've had. KF1 is still a decent game, but it only went so far with how it was developed and felt like some things were missing, frustrating when they didnt need to be, or could've been done better. And that's what I see TW did with their sequel.
Where as KF1 looked more gritty and scary, KF2 looks a lot more polished and has better graphics; of course that's due to updated engine software though. But you can still make the maps in the game look hellish after turning every zed in a 5 mile radius into paste, and it gets better once you figure out how to edit the gore settings in the KFGame file. Some still want that old move theme slasher feeling, which I don't mind, but I get more out of seeing zed corpses and pieces lying on the ground with the walls and ceiling painting with their blood in vivid detail.
As for gameplay...I'll be honest. I probably have way more hours with KF2 than 1. For crying out loud, the second game has a shove function that the first game lacked; and keep in mind it came out around the same time L4D2 did. If you were grabbed by a clot and didnt kill him quick, you were essentially screwed. Not to mention the only way to run quicker was to hold your knife out. In my opinion that doesn't make much sense, since you're still carrying the same amount of weight no matter what you have out. Plus, it kinda makes you a bit vulnerable since you have to change weapons of you need to shoot something; not to mention to even use your flashlight, you have to have your pistol or whatever weapon its attached to out. Not very fun in dark areas where your best weapon (if it doesn't have a flashlight) would be more useful. The second game fixed those by finally adding the shove function so those clots can piss off, the ability to sprint being tied to a key, and a body flashlight.
Then, we have the grinding. KF1's grinding system was terrible. You had to do specific condition to level up, or otherwise you couldn't. Welding doors as a support consistently became a real chore, and the commando had the infamous issue of having to kill X stalkers (which we all know was hard when your teammates wind up killing them before you do). You'd be likely stuck at a certain level for a few weeks of things didn't go your way. Sure, getting a higher tiered weapon made things kinda worth it, but that's questionable. In KF2, it was much more streamlined where all you had to do was play a perk for a week to reach 25, and along the way you could pick certain perk skills that could better suit your playstyle. Oh, and the best part? Doing certain objectives or killing certain zeds counted as bonus XP. In short, just playing the game guaranteed you leveling up, and you could reach as high as level 10 within 2 days.
I would say perk skills replaced the notion of starting with a higher tiered weapon when you spawn in. Getting a grenade launcher when you spawn as a demo is nice and saves dosh, but zed time skills can be a real game changer for almost any perk.
Now, as far as the zeds, stalkers, crawlers, and sirens are still as annoying as ever. Clots are a bit better and the three variants make it a little interesting. Gorefiends were extremely annoying until you could finally interrupt their blender attack. Can't say much about the bloat, but the husk is effectively the bane of everyone's existence if you don't know where he is. As for the big ones, sure, the roars give them away when they spawn; but as far as exact location, they're still ambiguous (usually right around the corner...). They're also more dangerous than in the first game since stun locking them is no longer viable with a zerk, not that it was rewarding in the first place, and they make it harder for the player to hit their head once they start to rage. Fleshpounds will always rage no matter what you do, and the fact they can now spawn enraged makes them even more dangerous.
However, one good thing to note is that all zeds can activately attack each other if you trick them into crossing their firing line, especially with husks and bloats. You can't say it's not amusing to watch two or 3 husks trying to roast each other and one ends up suiciding to kill them all.
Oh, and about the whole thing with 'fire on big zeds'....
Large zeds are big on fire resistance. The only weapons that could effectively take care of them were the microwave gun and the husk cannon, but they got nerfed and aren't as useful as they used to be. While setting one on fire does throw him off your team's back for a few seconds, it does ruin the shots of those trying to end him. That's why firebugs usually don't deal with big zeds. Besides, they get more out of killing everything that's NOT a big zed.
Oh, and before I forget, there's the maps with this game. Just about all of them were designed with some level of run and gun play. KF1 was filled with corridor maps that made it easy to find a decent spot and camp, but in this game, that strategy is mitigated with the fact zeds can come from almost anywhere like vents or sewer pipes. If you need to abandon your hold, it's best to do so before you get overwhelmed. Maps like Nuked and outpost are pretty good examples. I guess TW dove into the original concept with the holdout maps like Krampus Lair, Descent, and Powercore, but there's still some room for you to run around.
In short, KF2 expanded on things that KF1 lacked or could've had. KF1 is still a decent game, but it only went so far with how it was developed and felt like some things were missing, frustrating when they didnt need to be, or could've been done better. And that's what I see TW did with their sequel.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
This is exactly how I feel regarding the series, great way to put things in perspective.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
None of these has anything to do with the problems of KF2. These were the changes that were welcome. BTW Flashlight in KF2 is useless as hell. Good thing that they made it more available while totally killing it. There is no dark maps, not even on Farmhouse. Only the community maps can utilize it like 420GanjaFarm.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
While I see your point against KF1, I don't agree with KF2. In KF2, you can be a LvL 25 medic without ever healing a single player. You can be a LvL25 Sharpshooter without ever shooting a headshot, and a LvL25 support without ever welding a door (not like welding has any use in the game on official maps tho). And also for Bonus XP: the "bonus" for a Shapshooter headshot is 1 xp....... For a perk that is called "SHARP"shooter and it's purpose to be good at aiming. But why would they? Just spray'n'pray with M14 and let the XP flow, that 1 xp doesn't really matter at all. And healing teammates gives you 5-15 XP sum / heal. Now if you really want to level up your medic, you won't give a single **** about your teammates and you will go trashing as killing a clot gives more Xp. So that "Bonus xp" is so low, that it's not worth at all focusing on your perk's goals. And you wonder why are there so many bad player in the game?
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
I like the idea of skills too, but a not in it's current form. The idea is good, the solution is bad, as many skills are considered as totally useless and nobody uses them. But +1 for effort for TWI. Also a "Skill-tree" would be better, where you can focus more on an aspect, but this is just candy.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
Stalkers are paper, and Sirens are weak as hell, none of them is "Annoying". Husk can be a pain sometimes but it's not hard to deal with him. Randomly spawning raged Tier 3s COMBINED with the small, closed, close-ranged Official maps makes it just annoying, that SS doesn't even has a chance to take them down, they are already rushing raged. Probably thats why the most famous map is Nuked as it has the most open area.
It was in KF1 too.Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
1; Taking a big ZED due to the small maps in 80% of the random matches end up everyone running around and spraying the big guy.Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
2; Since the game doesn't encourage proper playing (not even the XP system) nearly every unskilled firebug is just randomly burning the Tier 3 ZEDs without realizing they barely damage them.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
Except that powercore is not holdout. You aren't chosing an area, you are locked in one. Its one of the maps I hate the most. Extremely small area where in a short time you get extremely crowded with ZEDs from all direction. As a long-time KF1 player and an SS main, it is hecking frustrating for me, that I could barely take down that 30 ZEDs coming from 1 direction, there is already 30 another behind me, and the trashers can't focus on saving my SS ass, because they are sorrounded too.
Dr. Lethal;n2323990 said:
In shor, I never said it didn't evolved in many aspect. But what many old fans hate: It highly moved towards a general, yet-another horde-shooter game where no teamwork, no tactic and no skills required, it could evolve it's unique KF-ish apsects too, but no. It evolved the general stuff (Gunplay, Graphics) that was MINIMAL in a game in 2018. That is not "extra" but the minimum that a game's sequel improve the graphics and core mechanics.
Ok, now I see where most of your opinions are coming from. So to break it down into something simple:rabirland;n2323997 said:
1. Those were problems in KF1 that KF2 fixed. Also, there are dark areas with lights that can be easily destroyed, making your flashlight useful. Even on Farmhouse it's still good for playing outside.
2. There's nothing wrong with leveling up bu dealing damage with a perk weapon. Even if you use an offperk weapon, xp is counted towards that particular perk. While it's possible to reach 25 as a medic without healing anyone, it will take longer because healing players with medic weapons counts as bonus xp. I reached lvl 9 as a medic with other perks before I actually got interested in being the medic. Based on your comments, I don't think you understand what bonus xp is, and all perks have an extra thing for them. And since you're apparently a sniper main, you get bonus xp for making headshots. You'll take less time getting to 25 than one who doesn't make them on a constant basis.
3. Getting harrassed by a group of stalkers is annoying and can be deadly, because they hardly come one at a time. Sirens are annoying to anyone else besides demo because their screams can ruin a perfectly timed grenade throw. Also, you mentioning SS again is making your thoughts rather biased than speaking in a general sense. There's also Burning Paris, Volter Manor, Infenal Realm, Black Forest, and even Evac Point that are similar to Nuked before that map was put in. So it's safe to say run and gun was a core thought in the game, something SS isn't exactly good at.
4. Zed aggro wasn't as tuned as it was in this game. It was less common to see a clot or crawler attack a bloat simply for getting puked on, much less a husk. It was common for fleshpounds though, since they obliterate everything in their path.
5. On Descent, Karmpus Lair, and even of you choose to told certain spots in Catacombs, Farmhouse, and even Containment station (they're small because you don't really run around much and instead hold somewhere with your team), a gold team will wipe big zeds in seconds. Bad teams can't kill them fast enough, so this is coming from your own gameplay experiences and they don't represent what really goes on. And since you mentioned being a Sniper main, I play just about every perk besides commando and survivalist. I like doing demo the most but will drop to gunslinger if precision is needed.
6. Go look up Powercore in the kf2 wiki and it's clearly listed as a holdout map. It's quite similar to Descent, so I don't know why you're saying it's not. Btw, key thing to remember is that SS don't bode well on holdout maps, that's probably why you have issues. It's best to play a different perk. GS is pretty decent since they can handle close range threats.
6. This game does require teamwork to survive. Sure, everyone is doing their own thing, but if they're doing their job PROPERLY, then it shouldn't be an issue. Players will heal each other roughly 60% of the time and even give dosh if you need it. As far as tactics, when it comes to large zeds, heavy hitters get the first punch (SS, demo, support, gunslingers, and SWAT for scrakes). While they're busy, everyone else is on trash duty and can aid when the trash is taken care of. That's why commandos focus on trash for zed time extension and firebugs kill off any trash that will disrupt the process. The game is still an improvement over KF1 in many aspects, though certain updates are debatable like the way the Eds were added. At least now they got nerfed into the walking EMP bombs they were intended to be.
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infntnub;n2323932 said:I agreed with this idea early in the topic but a good point was then made -> doing this would just divide the small community KF/KF2 has. I'm kind of thankful versus has been a failure, since we avoided that issue entirely.
It would've worked better if the mode was balanced to HoE. That way, lvl 25 perks wouldn't be steamrolling in normal gameplay. As well as the zeds being properly balanced so they're more equal to those perks and Patty adjusted. If it took the way of L4D versus where you could choose what you spawned as, that'd be even better (course, there would be a limit to the number of severe and large zeds).