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Crossbows.

I'm not playing World of Theorycraft with you. In practice, SS's got nerfed to oblivion. Proof? I haven't seen more than 2 sharpshooters in my last ~6 HoE games.

thats not proof. I have seen plenty of SS, I honestly have no clue wht your talking about; all it means is that you just haven't happened to run into one. SS is just about the best anti-biggun perk, especially at long range.

And now people who were bored with it are returning, and new members are picking it up. Sure, there won't be teams composing entirely of SS anymore, but that wasn't a good thing to start with.
 
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A quote of mine from beta testing:

I don't know about you, but when waves 7-10 come along, I make sure the team has at least 1 level 6 sharpshooter to handle the big stuff. No other perk lends themselves to this thought process, which seems to be why everyone is nerfing the living **** out of sharpshooters. Unfortunately, these changes won't decrease the gap between perks, it will widen it. They'll just make it so 2+ sharpshooters are necessary on waves 7-10, instead of 1.

1. When it's harder to take out the big stuff...
2. More sharpshooters are needed to reliably beat suicidal...
3. Means less spots on the team for other perks to fill...
4. Equates to only the most effective perks taking remaining spots...
5. Results in a greater difference in value between effective and ineffective perks.


I'd like more perk diversity in the end game. I don't want to see 3 sharpshooters a game just to have a good chance at getting to wave 11. Now, if the above situation is found by the community to be ineffective (buttload of SS each game), I guarantee you people will stop playing SS all together, preferring rather to choose a perk, or perk combination, that CAN reliably handle the big stuff. No one wants either of these possibilities to come to pass.

In my direct experience, the later circumstance has come to pass. Sharpshooters simply aren't cutting it, and (at least in my HoE games), no one is picking them. The few times I've heard about successful HoE teams involving sharpshooters, they have consisted of 2 or 3 sharpshooters on the same team, which again follows my beta prediction, and as previously outlined, is no more ideal than the former situation.

And to get slightly back on topic, this all comes back to the xbow changes :p


Edit
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In my experience, EBR > xbow for fleshpounds, and LAR works just fine for scrakes. EBR + LAR > xbow In almost all situations. Working as intended?
 
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Option 2
KILL a Fleshpound with 3 headshots (Or, 2 shots decap it (not kill), third on the body kills it?) as a level 6 Sharpie. BUT this option also requires fixing the scope bug (Low scopesetting allows way too quick scope recovery)

i like this option better....2 shot decap, 3 shot kill. but like we've both said, this would have to be tested AFTER the bugs are fixed.

There's nothing wrong with quick scoping. xbow is weak enough as is.

bull****. it's exploiting and sadly TW believed the beta testers who told them that it was a possible "skill" to get 3-4 headshots on a FP.

Killing the big stuff isn't the job of a specific perk. It's the whole team's job. Get with the program, and play a different perk like everyone else.

i've been with the "program" since it came out....news flash bro, anti-FP and anti-Scrake have ALWAYS been the specific role for specific perks. pre-LevelUp and Heavy Metal updates, anti-FP was the zerker and support classes, anti-Scrake was zerkers and SS (who have ALWAYS been able to get 1 headshot bow kills....just had to know about the offcenter hitbox). after those updates, anti-FP was SS and demo, anti-Scrake was SS, demo and zerker. so YOU are the one who needs to get with the program ;)
 
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i've been with the "program" since it came out....news flash bro, anti-FP and anti-Scrake have ALWAYS been the specific role for specific perks. pre-LevelUp and Heavy Metal updates, anti-FP was the zerker and support classes, anti-Scrake was zerkers and SS (who have ALWAYS been able to get 1 headshot bow kills....just had to know about the offcenter hitbox). after those updates, anti-FP was SS and demo, anti-Scrake was SS, demo and zerker. so YOU are the one who needs to get with the program ;)
Can you please borrow me your anti-troll gun? I need to blast out them together with you as you are mostly not around ;):IS2::IS2::IS2:
 
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i like this option better....2 shot decap, 3 shot kill. but like we've both said, this would have to be tested AFTER the bugs are fixed.



bull****. it's exploiting and sadly TW believed the beta testers who told them that it was a possible "skill" to get 3-4 headshots on a FP.



i've been with the "program" since it came out....news flash bro, anti-FP and anti-Scrake have ALWAYS been the specific role for specific perks. pre-LevelUp and Heavy Metal updates, anti-FP was the zerker and support classes, anti-Scrake was zerkers and SS (who have ALWAYS been able to get 1 headshot bow kills....just had to know about the offcenter hitbox). after those updates, anti-FP was SS and demo, anti-Scrake was SS, demo and zerker. so YOU are the one who needs to get with the program ;)


It was sarcasm. I was agreeing with you. I realize the subtleties of sarcasm are often overlooked on the internet, and accept blame for the misunderstanding.

My original point, which I obviously haven't stated clearly if you think I was genuinely arguing with you, was that I think it's ridiculous to create a perk to deal with the big stuff (SS), then decide the big stuff is a team effort, subsequently nerfing that perk's only intended role.

The changes to sharpshooter (specifically xbow) have made HoE more "team oriented" in the same way that maliciously blinding an old man and giving him a seeing-eye-dog makes that man more "team oriented". The changes to SS (xbow) are causing teams to either be flooded with sharpshooters, or utterly lacking them. This is, in my opinion, adversely effecting the game.

Either redefine the SS role, give him back his bigN power, or gtfo.

As of now, the only point to using a crossbow is efficiently taking out husks and sirens at long range. An important role, yes, but is that what we want sharp shooters to be? Husk destroyers and FP helpers?
 
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bull****. it's exploiting and sadly TW believed the beta testers who told them that it was a possible "skill" to get 3-4 headshots on a FP.

I believe it was me who stated that getting 3-4 headshots on an FP was a skill, although I don't ever recall saying that was with the use of the reloading/scope exploits.

Solo'ing a 6 man HoE FP with a Crossbow without abusing the exploits takes good aiming/reflexes which = skill in my eyes, depending on the distance, which in most cases isn't very far.

I admit it is a pretty ridiculous requirement most of the time, especially with dual FP spawns and unreliable, seemingly broken spawning.

i like this option better....2 shot decap, 3 shot kill. but like we've both said, this would have to be tested AFTER the bugs are fixed.

Nah. 2 shot decap would be a bit too easy for HoE.

A 3 shot decap would be perfect I reckon. After the bug fixes of course.
 
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3. Get rid of that silly 33% ammo to start with. You removed the bonuses to recoil and damage for the 9mm, and lowered the damage on the crossbow. I don't know about you guys at Tripwire, but I like to have enough ammo to be able to defend myself if I join later.

That's to wreck the whole sell & rebuy strategy, instead of actually paying for ammo.

I'm not playing World of Theorycraft with you. In practice, SS's got nerfed to oblivion. Proof? I haven't seen more than 2 sharpshooters in my last ~6 HoE games.

Objection, positing personal anecdotes as evidence. I could just say "Firebug is still UP, I haven't seen one all day and I've been playing for hours" too. It might be true but it's way too small a sample size.

I was just watching Law & Order, can you tell? :p


The "bug fix" would be allowing every type of scope to "quick scope".

Stop trolling sharpshooters.

The bug fix would be disallowing quick-scoping. The Xbow isn't THAT underpowered, don't act like it's the end of SS. It could use a little less cost/weight, but it's power is about right. It shouldn't be able to kill the game's toughest enemies on it's own, but it should be an immense help, which it is.
 
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The bug fix would be disallowing quick-scoping. The Xbow isn't THAT underpowered, don't act like it's the end of SS. It could use a little less cost/weight, but it's power is about right. It shouldn't be able to kill the game's toughest enemies on it's own, but it should be an immense help, which it is.

Gonna requote myself:

The Xbow either needs:

Option 1
1 less weight (from 9 to 8) and/or cost less, both weapon and ammo (600 for weapon, 8-10ish per bolt, perked or not)

or

Option 2
KILL a Fleshpound with 3 headshots (Or, 2 shots decap it (not kill), third on the body kills it?) as a level 6 Sharpie. BUT this option also requires fixing the scope bug (Low scopesetting allows way too quick scope recovery)

As far as i can tell, option 1 seems what you (and most other people) could accept right? I mean, you can pair the M14 with the LAR, why not be able to pair the LAR with the Xbow? You wouldn't be able to carry anything else on top of that anyway.
 
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It was sarcasm.

even re-reading those two posts a second time, they still don't appear to be sarcastic at all....i'll give you the benefit of the doubt though. suggestion, the emoticons are there for a reason ;) using a :p or :rolleyes: or :D might have given some better indication you were being sarcastic :)

Either redefine the SS role, give him back his bigN power, or gtfo.

yeah, seeing as the SS's role has been pretty set since, well the game was released, i've never been for redefining the role. SS fill the role of dispatching priority targets quickly and efficiently with headshots. for 20 months Scrakes went down in one bow headshot as a level5 or level6 SS on suicidal. there was no reason for this to have changed. SS have always been responsible for sirens. once the husk was added, that became a key priority target for SS to take out. the ONLY compromise i could see is making FP require a little more team effort, so no 1 shot decap but instead 2 or 3 (still have to test without bugs), but again that's ONLY if Scrakes were still going down in 1 shot. they have to have one or the other, either 1 shot scrakes or 1 shot FP, or else then like xebo said, SS are merely anti-husks/sirens and that is not a very balanced role considering other classes can dispatch those zeds with relative ease.

I believe it was me who stated that getting 3-4 headshots on an FP was a skill, although I don't ever recall saying that was with the use of the reloading/scope exploits.

there were quite a few people who said this. i'm not going to look for quotes of people saying "oh hey, you can get 3-4 headshots if you exploit these bugs" because nobody would be stupid enough to make that comment. :p considering the only way to take out FP in 3-4 shots before they could rage on you, not only in a team setting but even in solo settings, was by exploiting the crossbow bugs. every video i've seen of testing, or people bowing in general, everyone is quick scoping. so when people state that it's possible to get 3-4 shots, and label this a "skill" then the only logical deduction is that they were exploiting in order to accomplish this task.

soloing? i don't give a crap about soloing......a zerker can solo HoE with a crossbow if he stays far enough away from the zeds and get 8 headshots on a FP if he needed to. :rolleyes: i'm talking about Co-Op because this game is designed around teamplay. the worst part about all the testing was people giving theories based on what they could do in solo or with faked AI players on that stupid testing map. news flash, Scrakes and FP aren't going to be walking down a 100m hallway all by themselves. there are very few stock maps where SS, in a team setting, will have enough distance between them and FP to get 3-4 headshots off without having to exploit. therefore the only way right now, for SS in a team game to get off 3-4 headshots on a FP is by exploiting.

The "bug fix" would be allowing every type of scope to "quick scope".

quick scoping only works for the crossbow, and only when using textured scope view. the only other weapons with scopes are the SCAR and technically the LAW, even though the only way to fire the LAW is by bringing up the scope. the SCAR only has a modeled scope view and you can't bring it up before the reload cycle completes. same goes for the Bullpup if you consider the front site a "scope".

i don't care if people use textured scope view (understanding not everyone has the ability to run high graphics settings, also sight issues with the panoramic view) but the view can't give you an advantage over using the model views. the bug fixes would be to stop magic reloading and to prevent people from breaking the reload animation before it completes by toggling ironsights (the scope). they would only affect the SS, well anyone who uses a crossbow, because that's the only case in which the bugs exist. (magic reload sorta exists with hunting shotgun and nade launchers, but in those cases the cycle still has to restart and finish it's just that no animations will show and it takes about a half a second less to complete....with the bow, the cycle never has to be restarted as the bolt is already loaded once you take out the weapon)

As far as i can tell, option 1 seems what you (and most other people) could accept right? I mean, you can pair the M14 with the LAR, why not be able to pair the LAR with the Xbow? You wouldn't be able to carry anything else on top of that anyway.

i personally would rather see the power of the bow restored. HOWEVER, i also believe that the bow should be extremely limited on ammo and thus validate that power because you only have just a few precious shots. additionally the reload time should take much longer (not accounting for the quick scope bug). if you had a bow that has max 15 bolts and took 3 seconds to reload, then the power to say, take down a Scrake in 1 headshot, would be a legitimate compromise. of course that would mean a SS should be able to carry something else besides his 9mm as a secondary. the LAR only makes sense, i mean really, if you can carry dual handcannons with a bow, you should be able to carry a LAR.

so in my mind, a fully loaded and balanced SS could carry:
  1. crossbow - ability to one shot scrakes, 2/3 shot decap on FP, 15 bolts of total ammo, 3 second reload
  2. LAR - 80 shots, or Dual Handcannons - 80ish shots?
  3. 9mm and knife as inventory

or of course the EBR/LAR combo.....but ideally i've never seen the EBR as a SS weapon anyway and still would rather it get moved to the more proper class. ;)
 
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i don't care if people use textured scope view (understanding not everyone has the ability to run high graphics settings, also sight issues with the panoramic view) but the view can't give you an advantage over using the model views.

The only difference that I've noticed is that the textured xbow scope doesn't sway when you're moving, while the modeled one does. So you could be sidestepping/ strafing and still be able to line up a perfect shot with the textured scope. With the modeled scope, the center is flying all over the place.

I seem to manage just fine waiting for the bolt-reload animation to finish, didn't even know there was some sort of reload glitch/ bug/ sploit for it. :( Can't say I care to find out how to do it either.
 
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Ok, you're getting headshoots, good. Here's the thing though:

YOU STILL NEED BACKUP.

Just because you're getting headshots doesn't mean you don't need any help to kill the biggies, it just means you need MUCH LESS backup then a non-sharp would. Every headshot takes the same amount of body health as head health off. That's the key.

just started reading the thread sorry if answered but can i check-

I take it the FP (and others) have an amount of head HP and body HP and when either reaches 0 it dies.

so when a headshot takes 100 of the head health, it also takes 100 of the body too, but no amount of body damage affects the head, and since he can be decapped his starting head HP is lower than his body's?

Obviously to be decapped ppl making headshots have to reach their target before their efforts and the bodyshotters combined reach the higher target?
 
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just started reading the thread sorry if answered but can i check-

I take it the FP (and others) have an amount of head HP and body HP and when either reaches 0 it dies.

so when a headshot takes 100 of the head health, it also takes 100 of the body too, but no amount of body damage affects the head, and since he can be decapped his starting head HP is lower than his body's?

Obviously to be decapped ppl making headshots have to reach their target before their efforts and the bodyshotters combined reach the higher target?

Well, it's still possible to decapitate a fleshpound and have it walk around, flailing its arms about and kill someone. You *should* be able to find quite a few posts about people decap'ing the last fleshpound only to have it kill them. Mockery from the rest of the team apparently ensues. :[
 
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just started reading the thread sorry if answered but can i check-

I take it the FP (and others) have an amount of head HP and body HP and when either reaches 0 it dies.

so when a headshot takes 100 of the head health, it also takes 100 of the body too, but no amount of body damage affects the head, and since he can be decapped his starting head HP is lower than his body's?

Obviously to be decapped ppl making headshots have to reach their target before their efforts and the bodyshotters combined reach the higher target?

The thing is, a specimen only dies when TOTAL health (aka body health) reaches 0. It's just that if you attack the head, you might decapitate it, and doing so not only removes the head (decaps), but it also removes a huge chunk of it's TOTAL health, sometimes leaving the enemy headless with little health left (they also lose health over time when headless) or you kill it instantly, because that huge chunk of health lost from the decapitation killed it. The huge chunk of total health lost is based on its max total health AND the damage of the weapon you decapitated it with.

For example (just hypothetical numbers, i dont know the exact numbers):

Let's say a Scrake has 2000 head health and 5000 body health. The only way to kill it is to remove the whole 5000 body health, but it's QUICKER to remove all the body health by removing the head health.

If you deal 500 damage per attack, and you attack the head, the 4th attack will decapitate the Scrake and also deal a "decapitation bonus", which removes something like 25% of total body health (0,25 * 5000 = 1250 damage) and something like 2 times the damage of the weapon (2 * 500 = 1000)
So you first dealt 2000 damage to the head, which also dealt 2000 damage to the body, leaving the Scrake at 3000 health. But you also got the decapitation bonus which was 1250+1000 damage (2250 damage). So, when you decapped it, it didn't just go to 3000 health, it went to 3000 - 2250 = 750 health left. Thus, it is not DEAD yet, but it is headless and is on top of that also taking damage over time (known as "bleeding out") and will die very soon.

NOTE: When a specimen is headless, all weapons also deal extra damage to the headless body. The damage they deal is multiplied by their weapons headshot multipliers. (Which is why the Chainsaw sucked before, having only a 0.25 headshot multiplier, not only did it little damage to the head, it also did very little damage when attacking a headless specimen)
 
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bswearer, last time I checked, a perk does not have to instantly kill something in order to be effective, or necessary. The sharpshooter is still the perk best at dealing high damage to one target instantly, and at most ranges, and with plenty of backup weapons at that.

well let's take a quick look at effectiveness in regards to a SS using a crossbow.....

  • firstly, since the money-for-damage system isn't working correctly, a SS lands 2 headshots on a FP in suicidal dealing ___ amount of damage, yet receives no money. that's a waste of two bolts you would have to spend money to buy back
  • secondly, the demo can spam 5 m32 shots and if i'm not mistaken, can kill a FP on 6man suicidal. somebody already posted the stats showing how it's not only more powerful, but also more cost effective then trying to land 4 headshots
  • thirdly, how "effective" is it for a SS to land a headshot on a FP when all that does is trigger the FP to rage? it's not effective at all, especially considering it's only dealing 25% damage. in fact, it's actually WORSE for the rest of the team since now everyone has to worry about a raging FP.

again, the main point is that certain perks should be better at dispatching specific zeds whereas other perks shouldn't be as good. that's always how the game has been played and appeared to be designed. the SS has always, since the game's release, been the perk to take down big priority targets. other perks have been designed to be good at killing other zeds. butchering the bow has significantly reduced the overall advantages a SS had in regards to doing his job. sure while he can still be slightly effective in dealing damage to the big zeds, he cannot fully HANDLE them whereas other perks can handle other specific zeds with ease. the core of the problem is that the SS is now being forced to need assistance in order to do his job whereas no other class requires any assistance to do theirs. if we wanted every perk to be just as effective at killing each zed, then there would be no need for a perk system in the first place.

Nope Sharp Shooters are still OP as hell.. especially if you know how to quick reload with a crossbow :|

Exploit maybe.. but apparently it's a skill as well as I know a ton of people that can't do it..

well, anyone can do it if they use textured scope view and have a "toggle ironsights" key and it only takes about a second to figure out how to time it. it's not a skill....even though TW won't comment about it in the bug reports i've posted, a certain admin gave recently gave me an infraction for "posting exploits" in a general discussion thread i created to discuss whether or not these things are bugs. so it takes me getting a 3 pointer to have it privately confirmed yet we still can't get it confirmed publicly . :rolleyes:

The only difference that I've noticed is that the textured xbow scope doesn't sway when you're moving, while the modeled one does. So you could be sidestepping/ strafing and still be able to line up a perfect shot with the textured scope. With the modeled scope, the center is flying all over the place.

I seem to manage just fine waiting for the bolt-reload animation to finish, didn't even know there was some sort of reload glitch/ bug/ sploit for it. :( Can't say I care to find out how to do it either.

actually, what you're seeing is just an illusion.....the center is never moving, but it's actually what's outside the scope area that's moving. in textured, the outside is just black so you don't notice, but in modeled scope, you see the outside in your peripheral moving so it gives the illusion that the weapon is swaying. what i'm talking about in regards to the "quick scope bug" is simply a timing issue when you're toggling to ironsights. it's really not technically even an exploit as you're not doing anything manipulative to the function that you shouldn't be able to do.....you're just clicking a command. but because the action gives you an advantage over the modeled view, i believe it's exploiting a bug, and apparently so does TW.

textured scope​
YouTube - Killing Floor - 1016 Beta Patch 2 - Sharpshooter/Xbow Buff v2

modeled scope​
YouTube - Long Range Crossbow Headshots

quick disclaimer for admins/mods reading this: what i've just posted is in no way, shape or form "posting exploits" as i'm not telling people how to do anything that the game manual doesn't already tell them. selecting a graphics setting and saying "toggle ironsights" is not explaining how to exploit.......additionally, until it's publicly confirmed, how can what is being discussed even be considered an exploit? so i'd appreciate not waking up only to find a ridiculous infraction notification in my mailbox k thanks? :mad:
 
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