Criticism for TWI - useful for their next game

[Nimsky]

Well, the guys from TWI have stated that support for RO will continue until the end of 2007. That will mean that the next patch will be the final one, or maybe the previous patch was already the last. They also said that they are working on a new game using UE3.

What I want you to do is to make a list, not too long, with constructive criticism for TWI. This in order to help make their next game become even better. So no flaming the devs! Write a list of things you think TWI did a very good job at, and things you think could use some improvement. Try to keep it balanced.

I'll start.

The good stuff

1. The technical support. If you had a problem, Yoshi was always there to help you out.
2. TWI put out patches for RO regularly. Bugfixes, new content, etc.
3. The realism (although other games have caught up in this department, see below).
4. The fluent movement. You can dive, lean, run, dodge grenades all in a matter of a few seconds. Most other multiplayer games feel robotic compared to RO.
5. The gritty Eastern Front atmosphere.
6. Tactical play is rewarded, not just twitchy skill. A relatively new player can outsmart a veteran if he uses tactics.
7. The sounds (most of them).
8. 50 player servers (yeah I know some of you don't like them, but many do).

Areas that could use improvement

1. Some of the things that the community has been asking for a long time now, still have not yet been included / improved. 3D voices, MG42 recoil, mantling / climbing, etc. These are all highly desired features.
2. The level design, while great (both visually and gameplay-wise), could be much better. Some of the custom mappers have drastically risen the bar in this area. I think many of the current stock maps encourage nade spamming and lots of hipshooting, but take for example Kriegstadt and Berezina. Both huge maps, that offer much more room for tactics and teamwork than usual. They're also 1:1 scale, while still providing plenty of action for both riflemen and SMGs.
3. The game doesn't really encourage teamwork. Sure, there's the voip option, and it works great. But that's about it. The commander is just another SMG gunner with extra cap speed... imo he should be able to assign orders, kinda like in BiA (go there, suppress that area etc).
4. While I'm fine with the speed of RO's gameplay, it doesn't really encourage real-life squad tactics. Moving together in a squad will get you naded, and suppressive fire could work a bit better. Map design has a lot to do with this. Bigger maps usually means more tactics (see 2).

Alright, that's it for now. Again, keep it clean so we can help TWI by offering them some tips.

 

[Drapan]

Well said and good initative!

 

[Aeneas2020]

thats assuming their next game is basically exactly the same as this one on a new engine

 

[Major von Mauser]

Doubt the TWI dev's even look in this section anymore, but if they do and one replys I will bother with making a list.

 

[PUTZ]

any and all constructive criticism will be noticed.

 

[{8.SS}Bottcher]

It would be nice to think that maybe TWI have been making note of every little thing we've been saying and the release a sensible named:
"Uber-Red-Orchestra-Built-Anew-And-Revitalised-On-The-Unreal-3-Engine"

I think the best we can hope for is a remake and transfer of an RO type game, perhaps a different theater, heaven forbid, maybe they're going to end up remaking every theater...

Could you imagine playing WWII online on the unreal 3 engine?

...I just did and now there's a sticky mess in my pants.

 

[BubbaG]

Could you imagine playing WWII online on the unreal 3 engine?

...I just did and now there's a sticky mess in my pants.

WTF?!?! WWiionline finally updated their engine. I unsubscribed about 8 months ago and they made it sound like the new engine wouldn't be out until Spring 2008.

I will tell the TWI guys right now. If they come out with the same Red Orchestra game on the Unreal 3 engine I will be the first one in line to buy the game and will tell all my friends about it. The Eastern Front is where it's at!

 

[{8.SS}Bottcher]

They haven't updated their engine yet, WWIIonline i mean, least i don't think so, i was saying what if TWI took their expertise and what they'd learned from RO and expanded it across all theaters, similar to WWIIonline, but on the unreal 3 engine.

 

[Cuddles]

I would love to see penetration and less boxy tanks in the next RO and some way for the tanks to drive through/over the most simple obstacles like fences. Also most of the machineguns and full auto weapons need a complete overhaul (recoil, accuracy, tracers). Cliping was also a serious problem, I hope that gets fixed in the new game.

Most of theese problems might have been cause because of the engine limitations, but were quite annoying in many cases and I do hope that UE3 is mutch more advanced and durable.

 

[Kipper]

Those things aren't really engine limitations. We had a penetration mutator out that was promising but it died off when the devs stopped giving help. Rather than engine limits, it's more or less hardware limits. If we had all these things working at once on a 32 person server the CPU would melt.

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Doubt the TWI dev's even look in this section anymore, but if they do and one replys I will bother with making a list.

Pwned

 

[Aeneas2020]

Pwned

ROFL post of the week.

 

[PUTZ]

Pwned

back to your library!

 

[CrazyThumbs]

I remember someone here once saying that RO is unfinished at the moment, due to engine limitations and the like, and that the next installment will be like a finalized RO. This is what I'm hoping turns out true.

So I'll make a list.

Good stuff
-Infantry is nearly spot on.
-Realism is great.
-Support for the game is good

Improvement needed
-Tanks, while the tanks are decent, they are not up to par with the realism of the infantry. The things below will apply for just tanks/vehicles
-Moving times between positions, if you want to go the whole 9 yards make them animations
-Louder tanks, I want to hear treads squeaking and clanking,and a loud *** engine.
-Better Hit detection for tanks. I'm talking jamming the turret ring, knocking off treads, certain crew members being hit etc..

And some other stuff
-Melee, right now I found it very weak. Right now it seems like your just poking someone with a stick, put some hips into it or something (which leads to my next point)
-Better animations. They are too robotic and just make the game feel clunky.

 

[Basil]

[*]The game doesn't really encourage teamwork. Sure, there's the voip option, and it works great. But that's about it. The commander is just another SMG gunner with extra cap speed... imo he should be able to assign orders, kinda like in BiA (go there, suppress that area etc).
[*]While I'm fine with the speed of RO's gameplay, it doesn't really encourage real-life squad tactics. Moving together in a squad will get you naded, and suppressive fire could work a bit better. Map design has a lot to do with this. Bigger maps usually means more tactics (see 2).

Good list, and I have a suggestion that might improve these two problems. As I see it, part of the problem is that people arrive to the battlefield one or two guys at the time due to respawn system. This effectively breaks down all squad tactics because people are not going to wait other guys to spawn and then move out as a squad. To remedy this, I'm suggesting that reinforcements for infantry would arrive in batches of maybe 7 or so (this should be carefully tested, too large number means too slow reinforcements and too small ruins the idea). So you don't respawn after 20 seconds but after six other infantry players have been killed. When these seven fighters arrive to the spawn area simultaneously it will automatically enhance team play and IMO is also a bit more realistic. IRL combatants probably moved to the combat zone in squads (~12 men?) or teams (>~4) at least and not individually.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Good list, Nimsky. I agree pretty much on all points.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I can probably think of alot of things to write down. I will probably list them a little at a time.

With the exception of climbing over objects, I really like how RO gives you so many movement options. Walk, run, sprint, lean, weapon rest, and dive to prone (you have got to love that) and all the others not listed are essential for immersion in the game. Other games, some that I have played, and others I haven't are missing some of these features and it really seems inexcusable unless you are going for that gamey console feel. I would say try to keep all of these options open and add mantling of course

 

[BubbaG]

When I first heard of the game I was floored there was no single player mode, but now after playing the game for months I don't think single player would interest me one bit. Granted I do understand the need for single player though. Having a single player campaign is an added bonus resulting in probably double the sales, and better yet it will introduce people to multiplayer mode. Adding single player is the way to go and it won't affect the die hard multiplayers.

For Red Orchestra 2 I would suggest TWI adding Finland, Hungary, Romania, and Italy with their uniforms and equipment. The Russkies can have Poland and the axis countries that switched sides late in the war (for the late war battle maps).

Maybe being able to call aircraft in for strikes...Stukas...IL2's.

and of course, sharks with fricken lazzers on their heads...

 

[Solo4114]

A few thoughts for RO2 (assuming that's what the next game is):

- The realism level for infantry is great. Aside from some issues with animations (which is more tied to the engine and not being able to interrupt an animation), infantry combat is great. It could stand some tweaks (IE: better approach to resting weapons on surfaces, bullet penetration -- if it won't kill the server, etc.), but overall this area is RO's strongest attribute.

- The realism on tanks needs work. RO is better than most FPS games, but simple things should be fixed (IE: separate hull and turret angling values, overmodelling of the angling effect -- like making invincible T-34s, etc.). Tanks need more maps like Berezina (as CA) or Krivoi Rog (as pure tank maps) where maneuvering counts and it isn't just parking and shooting (like Arad).

- I honestly think that RO's popularity will expand DRASTICALLY if you add in some theaters that have previously been ignored by TWI. Such as the Winter War or North Africa (yes, I know this means no Russians at least for N. Africa, but the gameplay would be good). I think RO tends to limit its own popularity by not including this stuff. As good a game as it is, people like some more variety over time, so North Africa and Western Front (especially early-war W. Front) would be a nice addition. Honestly, the more the merrier. One of BF1942's biggest strengths (and FH's strengths) was its variety. It didn't have as much depth as RO, but the variety was there and that has kept people playing FH for damn near five years now.

- Better server tools/server-side options. Things like turning off tracers, more obvious settings for friendly-fire kill values for arty, etc. Little customizations that can help servers tweak themselves to suit the interests of their players.


That's it for now. I'll post more if I think of anything else.

 

[Isaak Johnson]

I'm gonna deviate a little bit from RO/RO2 themed advice and go straight for the guts. So here is what I think:

• You have amazed me at the level of support you have given to the community and the attention to what we wanted and what we needed. Not enough companies in the video game industry do this and I believe this is one of the main reasons you guys will go far. Even supporting RO for a third as long as you have was a godsend, do not lose this drive that has put you a step above the rest.

• You talk and interact with the community, for this I cannot express my gratitude, because by being there and working with the community you made the environment thrive with comments, suggestions and discussion, where even the customer could feel like he could contribute something to the game. I think this has made the community feel that any well thought-out idea or suggestion could actually be taken seriously instead of being lost in a bottomless forum. Thank you for being there for us, and allowing us to be there for you!

• Do not be afraid to try new things! Only recently have other companies started breaking out of their norm and created new titles instead of sequel after sequel after sequel. Remember that it was the new innovation of RO that has brought you here, dont spoil it by falling into the trap of sequel production or using the same stuff that other games have already done. (Note: I am not saying that making RO2 at some point is a bad thing, but when you start production on RO5 and only have one other game that isn't a sequel to RO, I'm gonna start wondering what went wrong.) When looking for a new idea, just remember: "Now for something completely different!"

• Above all else, and no matter what anyone tells you, fun is always your first priority! Everything else: awesome special effects, cool graphics, good storyline, innovative environments, (And I know many of you dont want to hear this one.) even realistic features and total historical accuracy all come second to making sure both you and your customers are having fun. The reason I mention this is because I feel that many gamers are being led astray by hype, good graphics and sequels of games that have long stopped being as good as they used to be, and I feel that many people aren't playing games for the right reasons anymore. No one played Pacman because of its awesome graphics or how those ghosts were "so realistic", they played for fun, and that should be just as true with todays games as it was then.

Now go forth TWI, go forth and have fun. . . while you make fun!