Console Like Auto Recoil Control

[heath4n]

Can anyone out there do an experiment for me? It is a little bit dangerous so if you blow your head off, bad luck on that. Maybe use blanks just in case but anyway, I think it will be important to demonstrate why the recoil in RO2 is wrong.

But seriously, is anyone able to fire a MP40, 44, PPSH without pulling down on the gun.

I'm thinking that you hold the grip loosely, and the front of the gun with an open hand just so you get can an idea on what sort of recoil you would get without putting any down force on the gun.

When people are complaining that their is too much recoil, you have to understand the concept that the mouse represents downforce and that there shouldn't be any presumed down force being applied because that is simply not realistic.

Think about it, why should there be any presumed down force in a gun gameplay handling? It's a bit like auto aim on a console, why have it?

Some are better at managing recoil, some are worse, this is where skill comes in. Look at youtube videos, some people struggle with the recoil and others control it well, hence why does RO have auto recoil control

 

[clambo]

mostly submachine guns push back not up

 

[gimpy117]

mostly submachine guns push back not up

not really. when the butt of the stock is Below the barrel....then gun should pitch up, vs mostly in line recoil. even with an in line stock, there still is muzzle climb though

 

[DasFist]

Controlling muzzle climb irl is easier than in-game though.

 

[MarioBava]

It's not that hard in the game, though.

 

[DasFist]

depends on the gun and your level, and weapon proficiency.

 

[heath4n]

I'm really surprised that everyone seems to be so tolerant of the auto recoil compensation (auto aim) that Tripwire introduced into RO2.

The effort they made designing the insides of tank so that it was realistic but then on the other hand, they introduce auto recoil aim and no-one says anything....

 

[Echo Black]

I'm really surprised that everyone seems to be so tolerant of the auto recoil compensation (auto aim) that Tripwire introduced into RO2.

You mean how after you fire, the muzzle moves back down to somewhere near the point where you aimed your shot? That's not unrealistic. It'd be unrealistic if the sights returned to where you started firing, dead-center - Try going full-auto with an SMG or firing fast with a semi, after you stop firing, the ironsights will have stopped much above where you first started aiming.

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[Vesper11]

You mean how after you fire, the muzzle moves back down to somewhere near the point where you aimed your shot? That's not unrealistic. It'd be unrealistic if the sights returned to where you started firing, dead-center - Try going full-auto with an SMG or firing fast with a semi, after you stop firing, the ironsights will have stopped much above where you first started aiming.

You've said it yourself, it only happens if you use full auto or make several shots in row in semi-auto mode. It still helps a lot with weapons with low RoF and recoil (its probably the reason why MP-40 recoil in full auto seems so much lower than PPSh recoil).

I'd call it half-assed recoil - it helps semi-auto weapons, while bolt-action rifles gain no bonus from it and it doesnt give much of advantage to use auto weapons (as auto fire still throws your aim off a lot). I wish there was no such thing in RO2, as without it, auto fire on MG would be used more often and semi-auto weapons will have less advantage at a distance.

 

[Pyros777]

Design decision I suppose. It could go either way.

I think it is fair to assume that a soldier would not just loosely hold his weapon and allow it to go flying out of control due to recoil.

Conversely, it is a realistic game and the player should feel as though all or most of their actions should rely on their input, e.g. - recoil control, not just some.

Realism setting then? I'll play either way because in the end it is just a matter of getting used to it.

 

[Paas]

I think it is fair to assume that a soldier would not just loosely hold his weapon and allow it to go flying out of control due to recoil.

...this.

If the weapon is shouldered correctly you're going to return to your natural point of aim.

-Paas

 

[luciferintears]

You mean how after you fire, the muzzle moves back down to somewhere near the point where you aimed your shot? That's not unrealistic. It'd be unrealistic if the sights returned to where you started firing, dead-center - Try going full-auto with an SMG or firing fast with a semi, after you stop firing, the ironsights will have stopped much above where you first started aiming.

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i dont think the game should pull the gun down for you; it should be up to the user to draw the mouse down to control climb.

 

[heath4n]

Did you guys just seriously suggest that the auto aim recoil is ok because of gravity!!!! ken lol @ that

By that mentality we should be constantly pulling up on the mouse to adjust for gravity !!!!! ken lol again

Summing up, TW tried to make a guns realistic but added auto recoil assistance and the realism nuts don't say anything, you have to find that pretty amusing

 

[DesiQ]

Did you guys just seriously suggest that the auto aim recoil is ok because of gravity!!!! ken lol @ that

By that mentality we should be constantly pulling up on the mouse to adjust for gravity !!!!! ken lol again

Summing up, TW tried to make a guns realistic but added auto recoil assistance and the realism nuts don't say anything, you have to find that pretty amusing

What are you talking about? If you are holding your weapon properly (positioning your body to point the weapon towards the target, and not just contorting your muscles to do it), then the weapon will naturally come back to (roughly) its starting position.

Expecting anything less is like saying that when you are done pointing with your finger, your finger will do anything except return to its neutral resting position.

 

[Grobut]

mostly submachine guns push back not up

All guns push back, it's simple physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, the action here beeing directing an explosion directly forward, and the reaction is that the gun will travel directly backwards. If you had a gun in zero gravity, just floating around on it's own with a remote controller servo attached to the trigger, and fired it remotely, the gun should fly directly backwards at the same speed the projectile fly's forward.

The reason the muzzle climbs is because the gun is beeing stopped, it's connected to the user, it's impacting the user, and since we're holding onto the gun from below it, it's only got one place to go and that's up, as that is the path of least resistance.
And if it has a stock and you are a righthanded shooter, it will go up and to the right, simply due to the angel of your body as you are holding the gun, if you are a lefthanded shooter the same weapon would recoil up and left.

SMG's have muzzle climb same as any weapon, but they are much heavier than a pistol, usually have longer barrels, and still fires the small calibers of pistols, and thus they don't react as violently, a lot of the forces are getting absorbed just trying to move the gun's own mass.
So on a per shot basis, and SMG's muzzle should climb noticably less than that of a much lighter pistol chambered for the same round, but that doesen't mean there is no climb, just that there is less, and the recoil will feel very different.

This means that the amount of recoil you get is going to be quite controllable, as in you should have have enough muscle in your arms to conteract it, but hey, that also means it's taking effort on your part.

Go look up that Youtube vid of an old granny in a wheelchair fiering an MP-40, and you'll see that gun rising skywards, massively so, because old granny doesen't have enough arm muscles to control the damned thing, simple as that.


Now in a game you can choose to go 2 ways with this, either you leave recoil controll up to the user, and we will have to pull down on the mouse to correct the recoil, or you can leave it up to the avatar, and he'll do it for you, or atleast do it in part to lessen the recoil.

The problem with Ro2 is that it doesen't seem to make up it's mind about which method to use and by what margin, on guns like the PPSh and AVT we're doing all the work, thouse guns climb like mad if you don't counteract it, but on guns like the MP-40, it seems like the avatar is doing most of the work, it barely climbs at all even on the lowest levels (and again i will point you to the granny vid, that gun does climb if you don't counteract it in real life).

Now we can debate which method is the most realistic till we're blue in the face, for user control it can be argued that putting a player skill requirement in the game is good for realism, that it will make different people have different results with it as could be expected in the real world, and that it helps make shooting more mechanical, less like pointing and clicking with a mouse.
But on the flipside, it could be argued for more avatar control that the people in the game are supposed to be trained soldiers, they shoulden't struggle with it, and that controlling recoil with a mouse, beeing fed visual input only, is much harder than in real life where you can actually feel what's going on, making more user control artificially difficult.


But what can not be argued is that you should pick one and stick with it! Giving one side heavy user control and the other heavy avatar control presents a serious balance issue.

 

[heath4n]

Grobut just absolutely bloody nailed it, you sir should be in charge of Tripwire.

The only thing that you didn't touch on is the difference between the PPS at high and low level. Low level has it about right, at high level, its almost back to zero recoil. The recoil reduction you get is bloody ridiculous at high levels.

 

[DoubleSidedTape]

If you had a gun in zero gravity, just floating around on it's own with a remote controller servo attached to the trigger, and fired it remotely, the gun should fly directly backwards at the same speed the projectile fly's forward.

Same energy, not the same speed. If a 10g bullet is fired at 1000m/s, a 10kg gun will be directed the other way at ~33m/s, or 100kg gun+person at 10 m/s.

 

[Grobut]

Same energy, not the same speed. If a 10g bullet is fired at 1000m/s, a 10kg gun will be directed the other way at ~33m/s, or 100kg gun+person at 10 m/s.

There is no weight in zero gravity, so i'm pretty sure that would not apply, and the gun actually should reach the same speed, as both the projectile and gun weigh the same (nothing).

Though if we really want to get technical about it, i guess that in an oxygen filled environment (which would probably be needed to fire the gun at all), the gun is a larger object, and thus would suffer more drag as it pushes through the air molecyles, and that would cost it a bit of speed, so very near identical speed then.


EDIT: Actually, i'm forgetting about the laws of acceleration (which someone is badgering me about on Steam right now), so you might be right, even in Zero-G the speed may not be the same.

Alas, the point still stands, the gun would travel opposite the projectile, with no hand holding it, it would have no reason for the muzzle to climb (unless you were to give it a reason, such as adding a recoil-comp to the muzzle which changes the flow of gas exiting the gun).

 

[Floyd]

All guns push back, it's simple physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, the action here beeing directing an explosion directly forward, and the reaction is that the gun will travel directly backwards. If you had a gun in zero gravity, just floating around on it's own with a remote controller servo attached to the trigger, and fired it remotely, the gun should fly directly backwards at the same speed the projectile fly's forward.

The reason the muzzle climbs is because the gun is beeing stopped, it's connected to the user, it's impacting the user, and since we're holding onto the gun from below it, it's only got one place to go and that's up, as that is the path of least resistance.
And if it has a stock and you are a righthanded shooter, it will go up and to the right, simply due to the angel of your body as you are holding the gun, if you are a lefthanded shooter the same weapon would recoil up and left.

SMG's have muzzle climb same as any weapon, but they are much heavier than a pistol, usually have longer barrels, and still fires the small calibers of pistols, and thus they don't react as violently, a lot of the forces are getting absorbed just trying to move the gun's own mass.
So on a per shot basis, and SMG's muzzle should climb noticably less than that of a much lighter pistol chambered for the same round, but that doesen't mean there is no climb, just that there is less, and the recoil will feel very different.

.

There is some truth to your recoil theory, but some fallacies as well. Guns don't really recoil up because your holding the weapon from below and its the path of least resistance in the sense that its easier for the weapon to 'pull up' against your grip (as opposed to 'pushing down' against your hands/arms). The barrel of the gun (the source of the reacton) is above the stock and/or handgrip. The weapon rotates around a fixed point that is below that force.

Try firing a pistol (use a revolver loaded with a single round please ), with the grip inverted. The weapon will recoil down toward the ground. If you have the shoulder for it, do the same with a rifle. Even though you are holding it with your hand underneath, it recoils downward because the stock/shoulder pivot is now higher.

I didn't describe it very well, and perhaps that is what you meant to convey, but I didn't read it as such.


And in the case of granny, were she to fire single shots she would probably do fine. I think of recoil as being proportional to the rate of fire. The cummulative effect of 10 rounds fired within 2 seconds being greater than the effect of 10 rounds fired in 10 seconds. Once it gets the jump on you, its hard to gain control back without releasing the trigger.

 

[M55ikael]

There is no weight in zero gravity, so i'm pretty sure that would not apply, and the gun actually should reach the same speed, as both the projectile and gun weigh the same (nothing).

Though if we really want to get technical about it, i guess that in an oxygen filled environment (which would probably be needed to fire the gun at all), the gun is a larger object, and thus would suffer more drag as it pushes through the air molecyles, and that would cost it a bit of speed, so very near identical speed then.

You don't need oxygen in the environment to fire a gun as the bullet casing is closed and sealed and contains its own oxidants in the primer. You're also ignoring that while you don't have any weight in space you still have mass. You would still be jolted back pretty fast though, and as there's no drag you wouldn't ever stop unless you had something to hang onto or bump into.

While the oxygen isn't a problem you would probably encounter problems due to the extreme temperatures.