Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

[Aze]

I too agreed that the Zerker is indeed is overpowered.
Like nutterbutter said, you WILL increase in skill with the perks. When you get to a certain point of skill, you will realize, like many others, that the Zerker is indeed a bit overpowered.

But, like also has been pointed out, the Berserker being overpowered is not MAINLY due to having a bit too strong perk benefits, it's mostly due to the Fleshpound being abused of its mechanics (a missed swing being a "rage resetter" and the other general LoS kiting)

Fixing the Fleshpound to not be soloable by abusing its mechanics would be a huge step towards balancing the Berserker as well. After that the Zerker would barely need any nerf, if at all! If so, i would only go with a teeny, weeny nerf, like remove 5% movespeed, and that's it!

Also, remember the difference in what you are using against the Fleshpound:
* A demo using Pipebombs uses up ALOT of money to take one down. Using the LAW or M32 is maybe not that expensive money-wise, but it is AMMO-wise. So you are either limited in ammo or money.
* A sharpie taking out the FP with the Xbow has the same issue as the Demo, on top of requiring alot more aim (but less cost). M14 only costs some ammo, but it is really risky to use against the FP.
* A (group of) support(s) can mow down an FP with the AA12/Hunting Shotgun quite easily, but the AA12 is a weapon hard to get on higher difficulties (costs a lot), and the HS doesn't have much ammo plus not that much ammo.

* A Zerker? Only uses a frikkin Axe that costs him only 150

 

[Gridlok]

So far like 56% of the community who've voted seem to think Berserker is fine... I tend to agree. I mean on lower difficulties Berserker is unstoppable but so are most heavy offense perks like SS and Support. I've been playing HoE with Berserker lately and man, it's a different story. One wrong move gets you killed, even with a medic in tow.
I said it before, there are good players and bad players... maybe they should just add a clause to the Berserker that says "If you go solo your head will explode" and leave it at that?

 

[Fish111]

Like nutterbutter said, you WILL increase in skill with the perks.

But, like also has been pointed out, the Berserker being overpowered is not MAINLY due to having a bit too strong perk benefits, it's mostly due to the Fleshpound being abused of its mechanics (a missed swing being a "rage resetter" and the other general LoS kiting)

Fixing the Fleshpound to not be soloable by abusing its mechanics would be a huge step towards balancing the Berserker as well.

Maybe, but even if Fleshpound's behave in a way that forces the zerker to get help from his team to take them out, like anything else that might threaten a zerker, they can still run away from it. So even if a zerker couldn't solo a fleshpound they are still basically a commando that has no need to avoid scrakes, runs faster, has attack resistance, and has unlimited ammo for perked weapons.

 

[Undedd Jester]

On the flip side you have like 37% of the community agreeing it is overpowered. That is a pretty big percentage for a balance disagreement (and yes I know the pool is quite low, but majority of people have backed up their arguements for eitehr side).

You might be finding it hard now, but if you practise it you will improve and I'm sure you will be able to kite and win time after time too.

As Nutter has said a number of times now, the arguement that only a few people can do it doesn't work because people are always getting better and those few numbers will grow and grow and grow.

The definition of game balance is and I quote: "Game balance is a concept in game design describing fairness or balance of power in a game between multiple players or strategic options."

This means that various tactics and strategies should have a comparable effectiveness. Equally skilled players should find themselves on par with one another no matter which perk they play. (Incidently I'm not reffering to the FP here, I'm referring to the game in general)

Right now kiting is by far the most effective strategy on the field, and pro Berserkers outshine the pros for every other class in the game. I feel that fixing the FP rage mechanics and lowering speed bonuses to reduce the effectiveness of this particular tactic is a suitable nerf to balance him with the other perks in the game.

After all majority of people have pretty much agreed that in a team capacity he is well balanced, its this kiting issue where he outshines everything.

 

[Aze]

@Undedd: Yes, exactly. A minor speed nerf and removing the abuseable mechanics on the FP sounds just right. At the very least, it's a good start to balance it, without going overboard and overnerfing the Zerker

Imo, abusing the FP mechs actually makes it a relatively easier foe than the Scrake (at least when soloing) to kill, due to the Scrake having a weird hitbox position when stunned (Making it hard to Axe altfire in the head sometimes, and thus hard to chain-stun). Add to that its nonstop rage, which it gets so quickly as well, is what makes the Scrake scarier, at least to me.

Only moment when Scrakes becomes a cakewalk as a Zerker is with teamwork, attacking them in the back (much easier to stun that way, due to the double damage).

Maybe, but even if Fleshpound's behave in a way that forces the zerker to get help from his team to take them out, like anything else that might threaten a zerker, they can still run away from it. So even if a zerker couldn't solo a fleshpound they are still basically a commando that has no need to avoid scrakes, runs faster, has attack resistance, and has unlimited ammo for perked weapons.

But it's a good start. Small steps is better way to go ahead with this, or else the Zerker might become overnerfed. Besides, you were only showing the POSITIVE sides of the Zerker, not any of his negative sides, nor the Commandos benefits, like:
The Zerker requiring close combat engagement (always dangerous) to get his perked weapons + speed into use, the Commando having very rapid fire weapons (able to sweep faster with headshots than the Zerker, even at a ranged position), very quick reload, able to see Stalkers easily and able to see the health of specimen (< do NOT underestimate that bonus, tactical bonuses like these are really valueable, especially when using a mic, being able to quickly tell the team what health is left on the FP/Scrake/Whatever you are fighting.)

 

[scary ghost]

You might be finding it hard now, but if you practise it you will improve and I'm sure you will be able to kite and win time after time too.

As Nutter has said a number of times now, the arguement that only a few people can do it doesn't work because people are always getting better and those few numbers will grow and grow and grow.

It is exactly this. Like I said in Nutter's old thread, the only thing that will stop a good berkserker is a bad choice. All other perks have a limiting factor to keep them under control.

• Commando and Firebug - Scrake and Fleshpound
• Sharpshooter - Swarms of smaller specimens
• Medic - No perked weapon except mp7m, clots, sirens, and scrakes
• Demo - Very expensive weapons, limited ammo, very poor close quarters defenses, and scrakes
• Support - Expensive weapons and limited ammo

There is a reason why you rarely see rambos with these 6 perks: they simply can't handle everything by themselves over the course of a wave for wave 7+.

But for berserker, what's going to stop him? No, maps like offices or bedlam won't stop him. There's only 1 berserker moving through those hallways, and 32 specimens all trying to cram into the same tight space. Pick good weapons to take advantage of the bottlenecks. Surprise spawns can be minimized by only camping in areas that maximize your LOS spawn blocking and knowing where the obscure spawn points are like overhead crawler and stalker spawns. No, sirens, husks, and crawlers won't stop him even though they are his supposed "weakness". He 1 shots them with katana or pulls out his ranged weapon plus has 40% damage resistance letting him take the hits if need be. No, needing to get close to specimens won't stop him. He has superior movement speed and faster melee swing speed letting him kill the target specimen(s) before they can hit back. He can always run away to heal up before re-engaging. So now we're back to what I said in the beginning, a bad choice. As players get better, their decision making gets better and they know the maps better. As a consequence, they cut down on the number of mistakes they make and their effectiveness with zerker increases.
-------

If 6 zerkers are kiting together, changing the fp rage mechanics won't do anything. They'll simply gang bang him with axe alt fire and cut him down in about 2 seconds if they can all hit the head, about 5 seconds at the worst if they all hit body.

Also, I really don't see how kiting is leaps and bounds better than camping. HoE is nearly identical to old suicidal save for the scrake and fleshpound changes. The only perk that is drastically affected is the sharpshooter. Support specialists still destroy everything in a good camping spot, demos still obliterate fleshpounds in a blink of an eye, and comandos and firebugs still easily kill the small to medium stuff. Camping is still a good strategy and works just as well as kiting. All it takes is a little teamwork.

 

[Steeps]

Maybe instead of nerfing the zerker he could get some other downside. Perhaps limit his weight capacity to 10-12kg? Or create some sort of melee cooldown after 5 swings or so, like they have in Left 4 Dead.

There's probably something better than that, since for the former all you need to do is drop an axe somewhere and deal with the scrakes at the end. Dunno, just thought of this now so I'm pretty sure it's not perfect. I'm trying to figure out some fix that can be made without making the class worthless, since I have a feeling that's what is going to happen.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Maybe instead of nerfing the zerker he could get some other downside. Perhaps limit his weight capacity to 10-12kg? Or create some sort of melee cooldown after 5 swings or so, like they have in Left 4 Dead.

There's probably something better than that, since for the former all you need to do is drop an axe somewhere and deal with the scrakes at the end. Dunno, just thought of this now so I'm pretty sure it's not perfect. I'm trying to figure out some fix that can be made without making the class worthless, since I have a feeling that's what is going to happen.

Why would he be worthless?

Its been/being compromised that the Zerkers speed would be dropped level with the Medic and the FP gets buffed so he cannot be solo'd by chipping away at his health and dodging his attacks till dead. This tactic can be ued to weaken the FP, just the Zerker would need some help finishing it off... thats all.

I disagree with a weight nerf, mostly cause ir doesn't really address the issue of kiting > teamwork but also because no class is ever weakened in comparison to another, they are only buffed.

 

[scary ghost]

I disagree with a weight nerf, mostly cause ir doesn't really address the issue of kiting > teamwork but also because no class is ever weakened in comparison to another, they are only buffed.

I don't understand why you think kiting and teamwork are mutually exclusive. A team can most certainly kite together and work with each other at the same time. The key is to move together. That is essentially what 6 berserkers do and can be done with a mix of perks. Otherwise 6 zerkers running off in 6 different directions means player A will eventually cross paths with player B at in inopportune time and box each other in.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I don't understand why you think kiting and teamwork are mutually exclusive. A team can most certainly kite together and work with each other at the same time. That is essentially what 6 berserkers do and can be done with a mix of perks. They move together otherwise 6 zerkers running off in 6 different directions means player A will eventually cross paths with player B and box each other in.

Actually that does raise a good point, I will have to answer this one very carefully

TBH when I have said teamwork I was more reffering to when the team is turtling. Kite teams however do work very well if everyone is on the same page. Problem is the Berserker is so good at kiting he can stand a better chance of surviving alone than pretty much any player on the field, no matter what their tactic is. Kite Berserker is THE most effective survival tactic in the game.

(Don't need to explain the FP exploit to you)


In terms of a full team kite, there are some perks that are good at running, some perks that aren't. As you know HoE specimens are actually pretty damned quick, making kiting as a team a problem for certain perks.

- Berserker and Medic are a given.
- Commando is pretty good with his fast reload and rapid headshots/spray downs.
- Support is OK at running, but may find reloading a problem.
- The Firebug has trouble if things get infront of him, because he needs to be setting things on Fire and letting them burn out before they reach him... hard to do when your running AT them.
- The Sharpshooter must hit constant headshots to get a damage bonus, this is hard on awkward foes like crawlers and stalkers, and even worse when you are have to run and aim at the same time.
- Demoman can't afford to let anything get near him otherwise he is in serious trouble due to his explosives. More likely to happen if your moving up to corners.

This means most kite teams are typically made up entirely of Medics and Berserkers, every now and again maybe the odd Commando or Support, but very rarely one of the other ones due to the obvious limitations. I'm fine with this if the whole team is working together...

What irks me is the kiting pro Berserker typically out survives pro players in a both a turtling team and a kiting team. This in turn makes more players want to play Berserker because he can fend completely for himself and go kiting alone. No other class can fend completely for himself, all other classes have to kite as a team, or turtle as a team, or it doesn't work. This is why I originally got so peeved at it... kinda annoying when players across a number of games always switch to Zerker and leave you to rot

My main issue with this is it pretty much drops the Firebug, Sharpshooter and Demomman off the board, because the genreal public in the servers I have played in now want to kite alone instead of cooperate, so it boils down to do I choose Medic or do I choose Berserker? This is why I want the effectiveness of kiting reduced for these 2, because in 9/10 games I just can't play 2 of my favourite perks without getting killed.

Hope that clears up a bit of the confusion

 

[Crow72]

Actually that does raise a good point, I will have to answer this one very carefully

TBH when I have said teamwork I was more reffering to when the team is turtling. Kite teams however do work very well if everyone is on the same page. Problem is the Berserker is so good at kiting he can stand a better chance of surviving alone than pretty much any player on the field, no matter what their tactic is. Kite Berserker is THE most effective survival tactic in the game.

(Don't need to explain the FP exploit to you)


In terms of a full team kite, there are some perks that are good at running, some perks that aren't. As you know HoE specimens are actually pretty damned quick, making kiting as a team a problem for certain perks.

- Berserker and Medic are a given.
- Commando is pretty good with his fast reload and rapid headshots/spray downs.
- Support is OK at running, but may find reloading a problem.
- The Firebug has trouble if things get infront of him, because he needs to be setting things on Fire and letting them burn out before they reach him... hard to do when your running AT them.
- The Sharpshooter must hit constant headshots to get a damage bonus, this is hard on awkward foes like crawlers and stalkers, and even worse when you are have to run and aim at the same time.
- Demoman can't afford to let anything get near him otherwise he is in serious trouble due to his explosives. More likely to happen if your moving up to corners.

This means most kite teams are typically made up entirely of Medics and Berserkers, every now and again maybe the odd Commando or Support, but very rarely one of the other ones due to the obvious limitations. I'm fine with this if the whole team is working together...

What irks me is the kiting pro Berserker typically out survives pro players in a both a turtling team and a kiting team. This in turn makes more players want to play Berserker because he can fend completely for himself and go kiting alone. No other class can fend completely for himself, all other classes have to kite as a team, or turtle as a team, or it doesn't work. This is why I originally got so peeved at it... kinda annoying when players across a number of games always switch to Zerker and leave you to rot

My main issue with this is it pretty much drops the Firebug, Sharpshooter and Demomman off the board, because the genreal public in the servers I have played in now want to kite alone instead of cooperate, so it boils down to do I choose Medic or do I choose Berserker? This is why I want the effectiveness of kiting reduced for these 2, because in 9/10 games I just can't play 2 of my favourite perks without getting killed.

Hope that clears up a bit of the confusion

Personally, I'm a dedicated Medic. I never play as the other perks, for any reason except that I've always been a Medic type of gamer.

 

[outofrealman]

Actually, pause rage timer when lose LOS really, just make it harder for berserker. You can just TAKE HIS HIT if you really need to take him down.
But this change TOTALLY REMOVE the possibility of non-zerker perks without M32 or LAR or something that can really kill a fleshpound effectively to survive after the team is dead. Cos you dont have ANY way to prevent him from raging unless you can find a door every X seconds (X depends on how much the rage timer is), and within that X seconds, you need to spary some bullets to him, AND weld the door for 1% and get the hell out. Otherwise you are doomed. Even you can reset the timer RIGHT AFTER you break LOS, it is hard enough for perks without speed bonus, but still, possible, and I like the setting of everything being "possible".

This change only FORCE you to engage (so not a big change to sharpshotoer, support or demo). Perks that cannot, just vote for the next map or suicide. And please note that if the berserker is the last man in this suituation, only 5 alt-axe-fire will kill a fleshpound. He just forced to engage, it is still easy for berserkers.



Last time I test a minimum of 3 hunting shotgun alt-fire is needed to kill a 6-man HOE fp. And 4 is the most case happen at really close rage or 3-5m away. So, 6 berserker needs 2 seconds if they all hit the head... and 3-4 supports instan-kill it unless someone totally miss.

For power-wise, berserker is not the best perk in killing anything.
Berserkers only out-perform other perks for ammo-wise like nutter said.


And the main problem most people have is "the last man standing is a berserker, and he wins". But how is those "fp rage fix" change this? You change the playstyle of berserkers a bit, but you make perks like firebug from:

"I can still make it with some luck..."

to a point that

"I should vote for the next map and just stand there let the zeds kill me, cos I have 0% chance"

if he is the last one. Yeah, this can decrease number of rambos quite a bit. But berserker or medic (or sharpshooter with M14) still able to do that if they really want to. Personally I found rambos nearly disappear in pub servers anyway.

If rage timer only pause when losed LOS, just make him miss-swing.
If miss-swing dont reset the timer, just take his one-two punch. He will be dead before you do. Or blast him away with M14 or M32.

 

[Steeps]

What's wrong with kiting zerkers? They're working together just how any group does, and it's definitely not overpowered since a stationary team can complete a wave just as easily in half of the time. Based on my experiences they're not as common as you suggest, either; I probably see 5 or so stationary games for every kiting zerker team. There's nothing wrong with that, and generally I have a lot more fun with these type of games than crouching up in a corner with shotguns and clicking mouse 1 until everything is dead.

The main problem with the berserker here is it is too easy to run off and do your own thing. There's nothing wrong with someone being good at the zerker and that doesn't make it overpowered. I think the issue many people have here (not myself personally, but probably half of the folks in this topic) is there really is no penalty for ignoring your team and ramboing. So if there is a fix, it has to be a fix that encourages teamwork, not one that takes away his only real use.

Every perk has a strength: sharpie at range, support at cleaning up, commando at trash, etc. It just so happens to be that zerker's strength is survivability, and in a game that's all about surviving this is obviously the trait to have. By "worthless" I mean that if you turn him into just an ordinary squad member without the survival then what is his practical use? What's the point of a zerker right next to four aa12's and an m32/lar? 90% of zerker use is either on the first few waves for fun or with kiting teams, and if the nerfs affect the kiting teams he's down to firebug levels of usability.

So if you want to fix him it is going to be tricky and something that needs to be thought long and hard about. A proper solution won't be as simple as "speed nerf" or "armour nerf".

 

[assfuzz]

what about spawn buff? make it so the enemies will be more apt to target someone who is away from the group more than a clump. this way a few things could happen... the rambo person or valiant berserker would get overwhelmed and killed therefore leaving weaker enemies for the rest of the coordinated team. or the team will get bored of the small trickle of enemies and seek to find the rambo dude.

also i dont know what servers you dudes are playing on but i have played many many games on all difficulty modes and i have only seen the "uber powerful" medic/berserker kiter less than 5 times. and technically me and a friend did a similar thing once in a 6 man normal mode game everyone died on wave 10 but me and my buddy and we killed damn near 95% of the wave him as sharpshooter and me as commando i think i might have been firebug. my buddy had to leave right after that wave and donated all his weapons and money to the rest of the team for the patriarch we both got a huge end of wave bonus, i myself had over 5k for some reason my buddy had a tad less, everyone was greatful that we were able to spread around a ton of money for everyone to rebuy powerful weapons and us 5 raped the patriarch easily.

also i still say berserker in its current state is balanced. the purpose is to be a damage sponge and to spread some money to the other members since he doesnt need to buy ammo. as far as damage is concerned the berserker is rather weak in a full team... in solo or after everyone has died the reduced health of specimens allows the berserker to shine so to speak. but nearly every other perk has way more damage potential the support for one can destroy a fp without having to get near it and kill it quicker than pulsing axe attacks at it. the damage resistance is fine. solo in hard mode and under getting caught off guard will still wipe out a lvl 6 berserker quickly. the berserker is not godly in the hands of everyone so therefore it is not overpowered. any class can kite for enternity even against fleshpounds. myself personally can kite as a firebug on hoe due to the husk immunity does this make firebug overpowered? hell no. being good when everyone else has died is not a reason to nerf a perk. now i admit **** happens but if the team was good enough they wouldnt have died in the first place and therefore not have to rely on one person to clean up the mistake. also the thing with all berserker teams raping mobs... so what! supports can do the same damn thing even faster! and being a ranged perk doesnt require a fullblown medic and can do even more damage quicker. also without even getting hit if done right.

 

[outofrealman]

also i dont know what servers you dudes are playing on but i have played many many games on all difficulty modes and i have only seen the "uber powerful" medic/berserker kiter less than 5 times.

I have the same question just like many people asked.

And the most concerned matter now is "last man alive killing the whole wave by themself". And I gave my opinion about what will really happen and why those "fix" do not do what they want.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I'll explain how the FP rage fixes it if you like, step by step.

Spoiler!

When I think about it I will rejig the idea to this: -
(1) It would only pause his rage timer when losing LoS
(2) However we leave it so that the rage timer does reset when he takes a swing at the Berserker (like it does now)
(3) the Fleshpound would rage continuously at say 40% health

(1) This stops the Berserker and the Medic outshining everyone when kiting the FP. ** As you say, other classes can't get away from it quickly, so the Berserker and Medic are at an advantage. For this reason most players will try to take the FP head on anyway. Adding this pause mechanic instead of reset mean the Berserker and Medic HAVE to deal with it... enter point (2)

**(Although I will concede that having the rage timer start counting down when LoS is lost will probably make it more fun and not punish other classes so much. As long as point (3) is still in place then it does still largely keep the same principle.)

(2) Taking the aggro and distracting specimens to help his team survive is what the Berserker is supposed to do. By leaving this reset on swing in the Berserker can then still be useful against the Fleshpound by attacking it and keeping it calm. This however, once mastered, makes the Berserker still able to solo the Fleshpound comfortably. Coupled with his ability to avoid all other speicmens with relative ease, this makes him still overpowered. Enter point (3)

(3) This is the big fix. The Fleshpound rages continuously after losing so much health, say when he has 33% or 40%. Think of a Scrake but without the stun lock. A Berserker would be able to badly wound the Fleshpound but finishing it off would take alot of skill and a fair bit of luck.

The reason to add this is its very dangerous to try and take on a FP alone alone as any perk without exploiting it as I posted here in the second spoiler. The idea of the Beta was to make things more team orientated, which is why the Sharpshooter was nerfed so he could't 1 shot or even 2 shot a Fleshpound.

If a bunch of Berserkers kite a FP together and hack it down at the same time, fine, they are cooperating to beat it. If 1 Zerker can comfortably beat a Fleshpound time after time (and he can, I, and a large number of people have seen a fair number of people do it) then it needs fixing.

tl:dr

A constant raging Fleshpound, even at 33% health will be VERY hard for a Zerker to kill it alone, but couple a Zerker with even 1 team mate and they can much more easily beat the FP together. In fact if anything this encourages people to play the Berserker because he makes a valuable asset distracting the FP for the team.

The Zerker can chip away at the FPs health (same way he does now) to weaken it with relative safety, and once its taken a good few hits, or it actually rages its then down to the rest of the team to finish it off. This promotes teamwork and keeps the Berserker in a functional role, but doesn't allow the Berserker to solo the Flehspound (at least without alot of skill and a high degree of luck).

Hey presto you've got yourself a team based game

 

[xebo]

Jester and Nutter playing vocal minority for berserker nerfs.

Deja vu?

 

[outofrealman]

Then... may I explain what will happen?

Spoiler!

(1) This stops the Berserker and the Medic outshining everyone when kiting the FP. ** As you say, other classes can't get away from it quickly, so the Berserker and Medic are at an advantage. For this reason most players will try to take the FP head on anyway. Adding this pause mechanic instead of reset mean the Berserker and Medic HAVE to deal with it... enter point (2)

In the suituation of berserker being the last man, fp dies in freaking 5 hits. Try that on solo, axe him > dodge his first attack > axe him again, if two hit is done too quickly, fp will rage. But if you keep axe his head, he die before he hits you. So this dont fix the problem most people have: berserker being very possible to win when whole team is dead.

**(Although I will concede that having the rage timer start counting down when LoS is lost will probably make it more fun and not punish other classes so much. As long as point (3) is still in place then it does still largely keep the same principle.)

This is the only thing keeping firebug or commando not hopeless when they happen to be the last one.

(2) Taking the aggro and distracting specimens to help his team survive is what the Berserker is supposed to do. By leaving this reset on swing in the Berserker can then still be useful against the Fleshpound by attacking it and keeping it calm. This however, once mastered, makes the Berserker still able to solo the Fleshpound comfortably. Coupled with his ability to avoid all other speicmens with relative ease, this makes him still overpowered. Enter point (3)

If each hit he takes from melee weapon reset the timer.... fleshpound become a total cake walk... further explain below.

(3) This is the big fix. The Fleshpound rages continuously after losing so much health, say when he has 33% or 40%. Think of a Scrake but without the stun lock. A Berserker would be able to badly wound the Fleshpound but finishing it off would take alot of skill and a fair bit of luck.

I suppose you know about the basics of head health? In fact,

The reason to add this is its very dangerous to try and take on a FP alone alone as any perk without exploiting it as I posted here in the second spoiler. The idea of the Beta was to make things more team orientated, which is why the Sharpshooter was nerfed so he could't 1 shot or even 2 shot a Fleshpound.

If you have a team to keep things away from you, many perk solo a fleshpound with ease. If you are the last one left, fleshpounds spawn with low health. And next to every perk can take down a half-health solo fleshpound without getting hurt. The beta changes successfully make the "pound killing" job require quite some skills instead of "able to hit the head once".

If a bunch of Berserkers kite a FP together and hack it down at the same time, fine, they are cooperating to beat it. If 1 Zerker can comfortably beat a Fleshpound time after time (and he can, I, and a large number of people have seen a fair number of people do it) then it needs fixing.

That why I am really curious about why no one talk about M32 and M14. I keep seeing "Zerker can comfortably beat a Fleshpound", but if you only talk about pound killing, M14 and M32 beats berserkers. Berserkers ONLY beats other perk in overall kiting.

tl:dr

A constant raging Fleshpound, even at 33% health will be VERY hard for a Zerker to kill it alone, but couple a Zerker with even 1 team mate and they can much more easily beat the FP together. In fact if anything this encourages people to play the Berserker because he makes a valuable asset distracting the FP for the team.

6-man HoE fp need 9 alt-fire of axe to decap and two more body hit to kill. (as 6lv berserker)
And guess how much health taht fp still have after 8 axe alt-fire? ~50%. And a fleshpound cannot rage after decap (decap shut down zeds' abilities, remember?) So, this change is actually making it even easier......
I explained countless time about simlar matter in "why xbow is not doing enough damage to fleshpounds if work with the tam".

If you need X HEAD SHOT to kill something, after X-1 shots, that zeds will still have quite some health. People just keep ignoring this fact... and everytime I explain this, they suddenly blind...

And before you ask, I jsut alt-fire 8 times and switch to commando, I am so tired to look for the real numbers and do the match from time to time.

The Zerker can chip away at the FPs health (same way he does now) to weaken it with relative safety, and once its taken a good few hits, or it actually rages its then down to the rest of the team to finish it off. This promotes teamwork and keeps the Berserker in a functional role, but doesn't allow the Berserker to solo the Flehspound (at least without alot of skill and a high degree of luck).

Explained above... that's even easier.

Hey presto you've got yourself a team based game

I feel that way from the first day I play mutiplayer.

 

[Aze]

If 6 zerkers are kiting together, changing the fp rage mechanics won't do anything. They'll simply gang bang him with axe alt fire and cut him down in about 2 seconds if they can all hit the head, about 5 seconds at the worst if they all hit body.

Imo, that's ok. Why? Well, because they are then working as a TEAM. I don't see much of a problem with that!

It's the solo Zerker being too powerful, and also the one who has to abuse the FP mechs to be able to solo everything. That's what overpowered. Teamwork (aka gangbanging a FP together) is not a problem, that's how it SHOULD be done!

So, i still see changing the FP mechs to be non-abuseable as a good fix to tone down the Zerker's soloing powers (yes it tones down the other perks too, but not as much).

 

[Spicy]

If only there was some way to nerf retarded players that are incapable of working as a team, instead of the player classes.

Played Suburbia last night with an all berserker team. It was a lot of fun. Good communication, 2 guys took crawlers as primary targets, when scrakes showed up another teammate was always there to get the backstab bonus. A 5-support, 1 commando game played earlier in the day was a bit safer as people didn't die nearly as much but too much waiting.