Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?
- Thread starter Undedd Jester
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From my experience, player without armour can take ~3 hit from scrakes. With speedbonus, you dont take a full hit. So medic can survive 3-4 hits from scrakes. If you have a katana/axe, problem solved (1-man scrake actually dont have much health). If you dont, just run away and they will auto-die. (unless u get 5+ scrakes, then you will need some luck)
I personally have an katana anyway. Because that suits my play style more. After medic gun+LAR, I still have quite some weight anyway.
The important thing about this tactic is you need to know the map inside out. I mean not only the layout. You need to know where, when, and what can be spawn. So actully if you get the first "lap" done, you wont get surrounded unless you really mess up.
I hte to say this but, it is not actually hard...
Well, that's a problem with the money system though.
Still I think the Zerker is too cheap if he is able to take down all specimen by himself. If he AT LEAST cannot take down the FP with just his melee weapons, he is more balanced, moneywise. If he does his job, killing Scrakes and the trash he can get his melee weapons on (or rather: in), he should be a cheap perk, just like Commando/Firebug. But if he should take down FPs, he needs to use "money" to kill the FP, just like all other perks have to do.
That's the point im trying to make as well with my suggestions
At least for me, money is not that important, like I said, it's about when you join the game... not how easy you get your gear. Even I get my AA12 afer wave 1, so what? I only really need it @ wave 7+. So why is it matter if berserker get his full gear faster... if berserker join late, he cant get full gear easily, too.
So, berserkers is back to old day when they use LAR to kite. (back then xbow kill fp by 3 shots I believe, but most berserkers cant do that, so they use LAR) If melee fp is easy, it will be even easier by using ranged weapon. And again, LAR cost $2 per shot if you even care... and it is notl ikely you run out of LAR ammo, too.
IMO, you just change the fp killing method back to several months ago. Not actually making it harder.
Not saying I oppose the change, cos I have no reason to. But it hardly fix the fact that people hate: berserker wining a remaining wave AND able to single handy fp.
True. IMO this dont punish team play berserker much, cos you need a medic to keep you healthy anyway. This make berserker need to reposition more rather than holding M1 and stay there the entire wave.
0.1% speed could help. But what I am doing now, will not be affected much by speed bonus. It do help, but I still able do that without it. So after some partise, those berserker who can solo now, can solo with a slower speed.
3a is more "necessary" imo (and its a good way to make Zerkers be less inclined to solo Fleshies and instead rely more on teammates) than 3b. But if 3b is also applied and you are with your team, why wouldn't you wanna attack the Fleshie? That doesn't make sense. Either you help kill the Fleshpound together with your team (as it will inevitably rage anyway) or you kill the trash behind it so your team don't have to worry about the small trash after killing the FP and they have to reload. So i don't get your point with 3b being such a bad addition
If 3b also makes you more likely to "taunt" the Fleshpound or something, that would be a great way to tank heavy damage for your team
Consider yourself in that suituation, you most likely dont have much armour, and you spot an fp. Even your alt-fire katana instan-rage the fp. What do you do now? Pri-fire it with katana while dodging his attack?
-Katana pri-fire do ****ty dmg to fps.
-You need 21 hits to decap an fp with this.
-Fp will rage after around 4-5 hits. (you need 2+ second per swing)
Fp will rage no matter what and you either risk yourself by rage him yourself to do better damage (and clearly not enough to kill him), or play it safe to distract the fp. If you choose not to rage the fp, you end up wait untill someone in the team help you kill it. You really have no choice but to wait until he rages and axe him and then hope for the best.
Wall of text ahead. 3 days of responses.
Yes, I understood your point. My point was that there can be a strongest perk that isn't OP. I don't believe that if TWI reduced the zerker to a clot with a katana that people would be saying that the next strongest perk was OP. Your point doesn't make any sense. "Strongest" is relative among the perks. "OP" is compared to the specimens. Two completely different metrics.
You spoke of the zerker as if he shouldn't use his speed to shape the battle. The zerker can use his speed to fight the specimens in positions where the husks can't target him. Yes, 3 husks are very common. That is why I referenced what's-his-name and when he said that "blah, blah, blah, 3 husks means you are a bad player"
Really? There is a "solo" mode and you stated that you "soloed" the wave. There is a reason why I use the word "kited" to mean after the team has wiped. As for the "twist and manipulated", hey, think what you want.
Sure. What Scary says isn't canon. When he agrees with me, it add weight to my arguments. He brings a technical view to my anecdotal and analytical posts. The best part is that when he agrees with me, no one can then say "Only you think that."
Remember that 2% argument I brought up that you dismissed? That 2% will not stay at 2%.
Really? REALLY? So now I "hates Zerkers with all his guts"? Exaggerate much? Can some of you tone down the hyperbole a little? Anyway, do you realize what we are arguing? We are arguing about something that will probably never be changed and this is the very definition of "This whole argument is academic."
Anyway, everyone says that the zerker is all melee and he has to get up close to do damage. So make him what everyone says he already is.
That is the perfect attitude.
I think is treating the specimens behavior rather than the actual perk bonuses is the wrong approach. Also changing the specimens affect all perks.
That poll is for favorite kill, not most popular perk.
Saying that "something is OP'd when anyone can dominate with it" is a very high bar. Of course there has to be /some/ knowledge and skill of the perk. No one is saying that someone who has spent 3 hours playing commando can enter an HoE game as zerker and kite 200+ specimens at wave 10.
Oh come on. Sure, zerker requires learning timing and proper procedures to attack. However, zerker is a very forgiving perk. Permanent armor, resistances, no clot grab, and the speed to get out of most situations keeps the zerker alive. The zerker can use the sights if he needs them of any ranged weapon he equips. As for the rest of your requirements, every other perk has to know the same things.
Contribute. Everyone's opinion matters.
Yes, I understood your point. My point was that there can be a strongest perk that isn't OP. I don't believe that if TWI reduced the zerker to a clot with a katana that people would be saying that the next strongest perk was OP. Your point doesn't make any sense. "Strongest" is relative among the perks. "OP" is compared to the specimens. Two completely different metrics.
You spoke of the zerker as if he shouldn't use his speed to shape the battle. The zerker can use his speed to fight the specimens in positions where the husks can't target him. Yes, 3 husks are very common. That is why I referenced what's-his-name and when he said that "blah, blah, blah, 3 husks means you are a bad player"
Really? There is a "solo" mode and you stated that you "soloed" the wave. There is a reason why I use the word "kited" to mean after the team has wiped. As for the "twist and manipulated", hey, think what you want.
Sure. What Scary says isn't canon. When he agrees with me, it add weight to my arguments. He brings a technical view to my anecdotal and analytical posts. The best part is that when he agrees with me, no one can then say "Only you think that."
Remember that 2% argument I brought up that you dismissed? That 2% will not stay at 2%.
Really? REALLY? So now I "hates Zerkers with all his guts"? Exaggerate much? Can some of you tone down the hyperbole a little? Anyway, do you realize what we are arguing? We are arguing about something that will probably never be changed and this is the very definition of "This whole argument is academic."
Anyway, everyone says that the zerker is all melee and he has to get up close to do damage. So make him what everyone says he already is.
I personally don't see a pressing need to change the Berserker
That is the perfect attitude.
I think is treating the specimens behavior rather than the actual perk bonuses is the wrong approach. Also changing the specimens affect all perks.
That poll is for favorite kill, not most popular perk.
Saying that "something is OP'd when anyone can dominate with it" is a very high bar. Of course there has to be /some/ knowledge and skill of the perk. No one is saying that someone who has spent 3 hours playing commando can enter an HoE game as zerker and kite 200+ specimens at wave 10.
Oh come on. Sure, zerker requires learning timing and proper procedures to attack. However, zerker is a very forgiving perk. Permanent armor, resistances, no clot grab, and the speed to get out of most situations keeps the zerker alive. The zerker can use the sights if he needs them of any ranged weapon he equips. As for the rest of your requirements, every other perk has to know the same things.
Contribute. Everyone's opinion matters.
I'm still waiting for a source about LoS kiting being an intended gameplay mechanic.
Originally Posted by [TW]Ramm-Jaeger
We want them to be able to be decapitated. It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit.
Is this helping? No?
Also note that timer reset is added TOGETHER with the auto-rage is added. So EVEN TWI really dont want fp be kited this way, there WILL BE some way to reset the timer. Because It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit.
Ramm's quote says they want zerker to have a chance. It doesn't say how they want to achieve that goal. Initially, it was the instant decap but that got out of hand when other weapons like the knife and 9mm could do it so they removed that. They have already stated they didn't want infinite kiting, which is why auto rage was added. SMIFF has linked the thread where the change log states:
Added improved behavior for FleshPound to prevent "kiting". The Fleshpound will now get frustrated and charge players regardless of if it is shot if players keep moving away from it.
The old behavior was set so that the fp only raged if you dealt big damage to it, thus the old kiting method was take pot shots at it. TWI didn't like this so they added auto rage. And once again, the timer reset was not "added" with the auto rage code. It is a side effect of the AI controller changing states when the fleshpound is not moving towards a target. Back then, it seemed it would be okay to let the timer reset slide.
tell you what. You join me and some of my friends for a game, or invite me to a game. At wave 8,9, or ten, when there is about 180 zeds left, we will suicide and then you can solo (as a zerker) the wave for us and show us how easy it is.
Make sure you have a working mic, need to be sure it's you playing and not someone else.
With all that said, I am now completly done with this thread. Nothing will come from all this back and forth, and it's just the same thing over, and over.
Peace be with you.
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So aafter all what do you popose? You want fp will rage X second after spawn no matetr what?
OR, just make everything rage if you are alone. Gorefasts, scrakes, fleshpounds. Or just remove self heal after all teamate is dead. If people want the last man die so badly.
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you guys should just drop it already.
the berserker isnt going to be changed again, remember the kf beta?
besides, over half the people who took the time to vote in the poll think that it's fine as it is, and that's just the people who visit these forums, not the hundreds and hundreds who play it without coming here.
the berserker isnt going to be changed again, remember the kf beta?
besides, over half the people who took the time to vote in the poll think that it's fine as it is, and that's just the people who visit these forums, not the hundreds and hundreds who play it without coming here.
Hence "I don't believe that if TWI reduced the zerker to a clot with a katana that people would be saying that the next strongest perk was OP." What you are saying that people will always say that some perk is OP. That doesn't make any sense because the other perks, with the possible except of the medic due to his speed, no one is saying the other perks are OP. I understand that you are saying that there will be an OP discussion always, but that doesn't make sense.
Yes, I was the only one to interpret your use of the word "soloed", with no mention of the team wiping, as a solo game. The only one. Sure. I wish I knew what everyone else who read this thread thought as well.
Unless he disproves it rather than just give his opinion. You know, like when I proved that ammo and weapons spawn on HoE (with screenshots) and you just went totally insane http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=710947&postcount=275 with personal attacks? Scary Ghost mentioned that the code spawns ammo and weapons more often than 2 ammo boxes a game.
So what is the limit? 3%? That is higher than 2%. 4%? 5%? 8%? 10%?
Are you a twelve year old girl? For someone who brags they can speak 3 languages, apparently the subtleties of a language escape you. You see, there are different levels of hate. People also use "hate" when they dislike something as in "Oh, I hate when that happens." It doesn't necessarily mean that they actually hate something with all their guts. Yeesh.
Anyway, I do have zerker tips http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=656128 I even have a tip on the fastest way to level the zerker. I even have a lvl 6 zerker as well. Funny how some of the people here take the most extreme meaning of a word when they want to prove a point.
And before you go "Ohhh, ohhh, that is a different post!" The zerker, and other perk tips, were in the main page until I hit the post character limit. I split them up after that.
Keep thinking that. You know that time you "soloed" with 194 kills (quite a specific number BTW)? Did you camp at the end of a hallway the entire time? I'm betting you didn't. I'm betting that you had to kite.
As for not much of an effect on the other classes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences There will always be an effect on the other perks.
Your interpretation doesn't follow the results. I voted shotgun as well, but I start a game as sharpie but I've been playing demo or commando after wave 1.
You said that your idea of OP was "something is OP'd when anyone can dominate with it". If that was the actual test for OP, then nothing would ever be OP. After all, if "anyone" could do it, then that means no skill or experience is needed.
You are discussing completely two situations. The first situation "players, camping at the end of a hallway," is a team camping. The second situation "controll the spawn by limiting how many they kill at a time, so they do not run into a massive group of asst Zeds around the next corner" is a single player kiting. Notice that I left the perks off because the perk being used in either situation doesn't matter.
Any perk in a group at a single spot doesn't care where the spawn is. Well, other than stupidly welding doors. Any perk perk that is kiting doesn't want to run into a massive group of asst Zeds around the next corner.
What would that prove? Really? Say I wasn't able to finish the wave. Does that mean all of my arguments are wrong? Say I was able to finish the wave. Does that mean all of my arguments are correct and the zerker is OP? Say I failed the first time, but was able to succeed the next 3 waves. Does that 75% success rate means the zerker is OP?
You are taking things way too personally. If you want to invite me to a game, feel free. My game name is nutterbutter as well. I'll play with anyone. However, the forum is one place and the game is another. I don't discuss forum topics in the game.
Again, are you a twelve year old girl? Do you think I would have some "super zerker" log in as me just to prove it could be done. Do you think I even care enough to do something like that?
Let me explain the difference between you and me in this forum. I don't care if you agree with me. I am perfectly content to express my opinion and consider differing opinions. You, and others, have to have people agree with you. And of they don't agree with you, well, we know how you will react http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=710947&postcount=275
I got another solution, one the Way the Berserker is currently "handling" though this time its mainly revolving around the Weapons. Would any of the participants of the discussion mind if i post a Weapon adjustment in the Berserker Thread ?.
Otherwise i'll open a new Thread. Cause actually from the contents it belongs more to Ideas & Suggestion, but also pertains to this Topic.
Just have to write it up, have been thinking about it for 2 Days now.
Otherwise i'll open a new Thread. Cause actually from the contents it belongs more to Ideas & Suggestion, but also pertains to this Topic.
Just have to write it up, have been thinking about it for 2 Days now
.
Of course not. Post them here. [strike that]
On second thought, there are probably quite a few people already burned out on this thread, so a new thread about changing the zerker's weapons would probably be better received and more people would see it.
I'm open for new ideas, but as long as the zerker has the ability to backup from a charging FP, I don't see how changing the weapons affects anything.
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Good point.
here it is:
[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=712451#post712451[/URL]
I think this thread is pretty much finished. There hasn't been a new idea in the last 200 posts or so and it's starting to turn into name calling. Either someone goes through all of this and picks out the key points and we continue on (better than reading through 350+ posts) or we leave it up to TWI to decide. Cases are made, now it's up to the developers to do what they think is right.
It's about what TWI intended to happen, they wanted to remove kiting, hence auto rage. And we all know that in the long run, the way they dealt with breaking LOS is not working out since everyone can still infinitely kite the FP.
------
So, here's a mutator I coded. Breaking LOS or avoiding a frag only pauses the timer. Lets see how it plays out.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=50932
And this is only favouring berserker and medic who dont need extreme skill and luck to dodge the fleshpound's attack. Perk like fire bug or commando can just give up. They cant kill fp before they get instan kill, and they cannot dodge the attacks. Which means no way they can deal with fleshpounds unless they are playing solo which they will have enough money for pipe bombs.
And btw, would you have any chance to ask about what TWI really want? Cos if TWI want the last man die, they can simply make everything rage if you are alone. Then we dont need to waste time to discuss here. Because I interpret that statement as "they want everything to be possible", "they want every perk stand a chance". However some people interpret that as "they dont want fp to be kited, fp should rage no matter what". Then I dont understand why they add the timer reset function. They could have only add 10 second LoS = rage.
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Much better, looks like that fixes LoS kiting.
But having FP attacks reset the timer still enables infinite kiting, which is bad, but it wouldn't be so bad if it was a lot less reliable/easy to pull off.
That is awesome mate (even if you ignore the fact this thread is about the Berserker for a minute) it already looks like it improves the game considerably on the whole. It makes the FP that "OH S---!" specimen that it is meant to be.
A small revision I might do to be a little more fair is increasing the overall rage time, since 12 seconds will go by very quickly if there is no LoS reset. Perhaps 18 seconds or even 24 seconds before automatic rage might be more preferable.
At least that would give a reasonable amount of set up time against the FP... although on the flipside having 12 seconds to run away and heal if you get smacked by the Zerker is not much time before you have to go again. Interesting case
A big salute to you scary ghost, I'd be interested in your take on the melee swing miss reset too
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Sorry I didn't have read everything, and this has been probably already said but I think the perk is fine.
Even with the backstab bonus fixed (was a frontstab *2 damage for a long time).
Just badly need to improve some zeds ai, fp rage system and the patriarch static non-move meleeing/impaling.
FP must keep raging few non-miss hits when frustrated. It's ridiculous when you avoid a swing because of high speed bonus from perk and make him calm down. Doesn't seems very hard to modify it in that way.
Even with the backstab bonus fixed (was a frontstab *2 damage for a long time).
Just badly need to improve some zeds ai, fp rage system and the patriarch static non-move meleeing/impaling.
FP must keep raging few non-miss hits when frustrated. It's ridiculous when you avoid a swing because of high speed bonus from perk and make him calm down. Doesn't seems very hard to modify it in that way.