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Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

  • Yes Badly Overpowered

    Votes: 25 10.5%
  • Yes Slightly Overpowered

    Votes: 65 27.2%
  • Meh Seems Balanced

    Votes: 128 53.6%
  • No Slightly Underpowered

    Votes: 12 5.0%
  • No Badly Underpowered

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Total voters
    239
I came to this discussion rather late and the idea of reading through all 13 pages as a bit much, there is only so much internet my brain can suffer in one day.

But for what it is worth, I do think he's overpowered a little, the first thought that came to my head when reading the post was of a tactic I've used and I'm sure loads of you have, of the patty fight, 5/6 zerks with chainsaws. Surround and have at. But it occoured to me that isn't a good example as 6 of anything might be able to pull that off (less so due to not having the damage resistance) I've always felt the zerk didn't fit into KF that well when stood next to the other classes. I know he fullfills a role, but more often than not that is a bullet blocker and medic's worse nightmare imo.
 
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On HoE there is no ammo you will be lucky if you can find 1-2 ammo boxes a game. Speed cant get you out of every possible situation it can get you out of some but not near all.

And you have either bad luck or play on lower modes if you have never seen a non zerker/medic class dominate on almost every HoE server i see some one wasting everything as support/demo/firebug.

Again i repeat more people think zerkers are fine or UP than OP.Again leading to the fact that zerkers are not OP.You might think its OP along with others but they are not.

Im not going to argue with you about this anymore as all of my posts i have so far is what i prove zerkers not being OP.


Great post, right on the money.

Nutter simply hates the Zerker class. He said it himself in his KF guide thread, http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42173? (post number 7), so no matter what you say he will post random replies, take statements out of context and twist them to mean something that benefits him. Best just to ignore him.
 
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Great post, right on the money.

Nutter simply hates the Zerker class. He said it himself in his KF guide thread, [URL]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42173?[/URL] post number 7, so no matter what you say he will post random replies, take statements out of context and twist them to mean something that benefits him. Best just to ignore him.


Because HE:

1. never see someone solo a remaining wave as non-zerker
2. run into a lot of bad teams (so a team wiping happens ALL THE TIME for him)
3. there will ALWAYS be a good zerker who can win the remaining wave.


So that means:
1. No body can solo a remaining wave as non-zerker.
2. If the remaining one is zerker, he dominates that remaining wave.
3. Berserker is really OP.

What is the TRUTH:
1. You proof something to be turth by seeing it happen. However you cannot proof something is flase by "not seeing it happen".
2. Berserker only OP when he is ALONE AND number of zed is very high.
3. Most peopel think having to run into zed's face to deal damage is a fair trade of dont need to reload.
4. No dev. will make ANY changes that fix 5% of the games and hurting 95% of the games.
5. If ANYBODY can give out ideas that fixing that 5% of the cases while not conflict with point 4, EVERYONE will be happy to see that change.
6. I still like KF.
 
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5. If ANYBODY can give out ideas that fixing that 5% of the cases while not conflict with point 4, EVERYONE will be happy to see that change.
6. I still like KF.

to 5:
I got a "simple" solution. It is "only" needed to add some Code to the FP Rage mechanics. And basically its only needed if one considers it a Problem that Berserker can solo a comlpete 6 Player HoE Game.... at least if they want to play for a Looooooooooooong time.

Preferably only when there are more than 3 (replace with number of you choosing here) Players in a Game and only on Difficulties Suicidal/Hell on Earth.

It would only be required to make the FP rage as soon as he gets hit by a Melee Weapon. This would make it very difficult to solo the FP as Berserker, though he could use a Ranged Weapon, but that would be an Ammo dependent Solution which Limits this Class as much as every other one.
If no FP spawns after the Team wipes the Berserker could end the Wave alone, but so can a Sharpshooter with the LAR/M14 or other Perks.

A Medic might still be able to solo an FP with Melee Weapons due to the higher Selfheal Rate.

to 6:
Me too
 
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It would only be required to make the FP rage as soon as he gets hit by a Melee Weapon.


If the berserker is the last one... ALL his LAR ammo could be used on the fp(s). And this is how berserkers play with fps for quite some time. Btw, LAR is a very popular side arm for berserkers.


In the matter of fact, I’ve never seen anyone solo more than 60-70 as a non-zerker or medic.


So you... haven't seen anyone beat solo mode!? Really?





P.S. in the game I tried 3lv sharpshooter on HoE, I end up having 63 LAR ammo and 3 clips of M14, 200+ 9mm bullets. And solo HoE spawn 71 zeds on 7/7 waves and 73 on 10/10 waves.

So if I am the last one, I have to use my 9mm and LAR much more, but this wont lead to running out of ammo unless zed is more than 150 or so. And this thing is, if you run around the map, ammo boxes isn't really that rare even on HoE, because you can search for 20 or even 30 spawn points of ammo boxes.

The real problem is, small mistake = 60% health and big mistake = instan-kill.
 
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If the berserker is the last one... ALL his LAR ammo could be used on the fp(s). And this is how berserkers play with fps for quite some time. Btw, LAR is a very popular side arm for berserkers.

Your completly correct, but so could every other Perk. Its just not that a lot of people use the LAR, or use a Loadout that is Solo-Capable from Wave 6+ onwards. The Berserker is solo capable with the basic Group Setup, but is he overpowered because of this ?
A Sharpshooter can also kill every Specimen with the Combo of LAR and M14. Though without the Movement Speed Bonus has to be a lot more careful to avoid getting surrounded (and getting hit :D) though can more easily take out Scrakes. FPs ain't that easy with this Setup but are doable.



For the record:
LAR Damage unperked on 6 Player FP HoE: Bodyshot: 70 per Hit - Headshot: 210 per Hit

So 85 Bodyshot needed :p, = 5950 Damage (Just put it up for reference, since Total Ammo capacity for LAR is 80).
or 2 Bodyshots, followed by 15 Headshots.
(15 Headshots needed to Decap, which would reduce the FP Total Health by 3150 + 2529 (Decap Bonus) = 5779 Total Damage +140 Damage from both Bodyshots = 5919 Damage
If you don't do the first 2 Bodyshots, you'll enrage the FP with the Decaping shot (not sooo bad since it only has 127 HP left :D.

Damage Information only possible thanks to this Thread (Thanks Scary Ghost):
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=673763&postcount=63
 
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.

Posts #256 and #259 are clearly trolling, as there were no reasons for those attacks. One shouldn’t call people out on something like that, because it isn’t unusual to put hundreds, if not thousands of hours into the game and never see a firebug or support solo late into the game on hoe or suicidal. I’ve never seen it, and I’m sure most people here haven’t, either. I’d be very interested if someone here would either record or take a demo of this, because I’m curious to how one would solo 120+ specimens as, say, a support on a 6-man game. I’m not trying to say that this is impossible; I’m just not convinced it can happen. So convince me! :D


.

I would not classify them as trolling. # 256, he explained his points in detail in response to others claiming that speed is the most important thing.

# 259, he clearly pointed out an undeniable fact about ammo and weapons on HoE, and again explained that speed is not everything, and that just because someone has not seen it does not mean that it can't be done.

Some people in here think that Zerker is an OP'd easy to play class, which it is not. Sure, it may very well be the most powerfull, and the best class for survival, but that does not automaticaly mean that it is OP'd, and there will always be one class that will be the strongest. Before it was the SS, now it is the Zerker, if that gets nerfed then more than likely the Support will take the lead, and people will start crying about that.

Point is Zerker is not as easy as people think, and the players they see soloing 180+ zeds are the top tier players, which is about 2% of all players at the most.

BTW. I once soloed wave 9 on suicidal with 184 zeds, but that was with the pre-nerfed SS, so that probably should not count.;)
 
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So that means:
1. No body can solo a remaining wave as non-zerker.
2. If the remaining one is zerker, he dominates that remaining wave.
3. Berserker is really OP.

Careful, you're begging all the zerkers to flame you here. In fairness it is possible to solo with any class on any wave, but I think there's a large enough community opinion to show that it is easier with zerker, with much greater room for error.

In the matter of fact, I
 
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Careful, you're begging all the zerkers to flame you here. In fairness it is possible to solo with any class on any wave, but I think there's a large enough community opinion to show that it is easier with zerker, with much greater room for error.



Well, it is definitely possible.

I find sharpshooter with M14/Scar to be ridiculously strong on any difficulty, and I can finish waves with 100+ but it isn't easy. Whereas on Hard and below crossbow deagle is pretty much insane as well.


That's just what HE means.

And have I EVER disagree that berserker being the easiest perk to solo? I dont think so.
However, being the easiest perk to solo have a HUGH way to "being the ONLY perk to solo".
And in fact being able to survive while the WHOLE team get overrun is not easy in the first place. Unless you give up the team long before people start to die. If you manage to do it, and you just happen to be a berserker, yes, you have a higher chance to survive.



And btw, as a sharpshooter, with LAR/M14/Xbow in hand, I never manage to produce any headless fp untill now.

M14 10 hs kill fp. LAR I believe is 7. Xbow is 4, all will kill the fp with the decap blow. As for non-perked LAR... you actually need to do it on purpose or you nearly never rage fp with that. (and yes, decap wont rage an fp)
 
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Your completly correct, but so could every other Perk. Its just not that a lot of people use the LAR, or use a Loadout that is Solo-Capable from Wave 6+ onwards. The Berserker is solo capable with the basic Group Setup, but is he overpowered because of this ?

Sure, any perk could use the LAR, but why would they? They reason why the LAR is so popular with the zerker is the zerker can easily kill everything with his perked weapons that /don't use ammo/ and the LAR can be reserved for husks, sirens, and crawlers.

A Sharpshooter can also kill every Specimen with the Combo of LAR and M14. Though without the Movement Speed Bonus has to be a lot more careful to avoid getting surrounded (and getting hit :D) though can more easily take out Scrakes. FPs ain't that easy with this Setup but are doable.

Doable is debatable. As you mentioned, sharpies don't have the speed to shape the fight. And they have to reload.

# 259, he clearly pointed out an undeniable fact about ammo and weapons on HoE,

Undeniable? Are you sure? I already told you that I average about an ammo box a wave and 4 to 6 weapons every HoE game. So his and your "undeniable fact" isn't undeniable nor a fact. But hey, everyone wants proof, so I went into an multiplayer HoE game and took a screenshot every time I found spawned ammo or a weapon.

http://postimage.org/image/2ftf92pus/

For those who don't want to click the link and view the graphic, in 7 waves I found 9 ammo boxes, a vest, a shotgun, a LAR, a bullpup, and an axe. I only have 8 pictures of ammo boxes because one disappeared before I could hit tab and take a screenie.

So the "undeniable truth" was disproven in the very first game I played. And every HoE game is like that. There is almost always something spawned somewhere on the map.

and again explained that speed is not everything, and that just because someone has not seen it does not mean that it can't be done.

I never said it couldn't be done. A firebug could theoretically play an entire game using nothing but the knife. But does that mean it will happen?

Some people in here think that Zerker is an OP'd easy to play class, which it is not. Sure it may very well be the most powerfull, and the best class for survival, but that does not automaticaly mean that it is OP'd,

You're right. Just because it is the most powerful and best class for survival doesn't mean that it is automatically OP. I've gone over why it is OP.

and thier will always be one class that will be the strongest. Before it was the SS, now it is the Zerker, if that gets nerfed then more than likely the Support will take the lead, and people will start crying about that.

Nope. Strip all the weapons from all the perks. Make them all run the same speed. Now give support a shotgun. Is support more powerful than the other perks? Yes. Is he OP? Not even close.

The best way to design a game like this is "rock, paper, scissors." Every perk has a strength and a weakness. Zerkers don't have a weakness.

Point is Zerker is not as easy as people think, and the players they see soloing 180+ zeds are the top tier players, which is about 2% of all players at the most.

First 5%. Then 2%. What technique a player develops, other players learn. So that 2% that could solo 180+ specimens on normal didn't stay at 2%. Then that 2% that could solo 180+ specimens on hard didn't stay at 2%. Then that 2% that could solo 180+ specimens on suicidal didn't stay at 2%. There is no reason to think that the 2% or 5% or any other percentage that can solo 180+ specimens on HoE will stay at 2%.

BTW. I once soloed wave 9 on suicidal with 184 zeds, but that was with the pre-nerfed SS, so that probably should not count.;)

Solo play is a completely different animal from kiting 184 specimens. Completely different games.
 
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I just had a look at this page.

Should i try to contribute, or just back out slowly?

mrfosterreactionimage.png
 
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Couple of things:

1) Total number of ammo and weapons spawns in a wave is independent of player count and difficulty. However, the number of pickups that are available at any given time varies with difficulty. Picking up said ammo box or weapon will trigger another spawn location to be used. When the next item becomes available is dependent on the number of players. For Suicidal and Hoe, there is only ever 1 ammo box and 1 weapon spawn at a time. Finding 9 ammo boxes in 7 waves isn't uncommon on a Suicidal/HoE game if the team spends a minute or so searching before the wave ends and in between waves. Neither is finding a spare LAR or armor.

2) The 2 FPs + 4 Husks + whatever scenario is hardly a weakness. Any perk will hightail it out of there if a spawn like that caught them with their pants down. A smart zerker will run and fight with his ranged weapons until the husks are dead and the FPs are slightly split up. Failing that, the zerker can hide around corners or behind solid objects to keep the husks and sirens off of him while picking off whatever gets too close to him.

Zerker don't solo everything because of a) bad decisions or b) unlucky spawns. Decision making is something that improves over time and unlucky spawns is mostly out of your control. But even with unlucky spawns, zerker still have the best chance to make a break for it and get some breathing room. Their +40% resistance also applies to fall damage too so running of a ledge for a quick break is always an option. Yes, a level 6 zerker can survive a fall from the 3rd story on Offices at full health, just don't jump out.

3) As for the supposed weaknesses laid out, I'm just going to copy this post from 2 weeks ago.

But for berserker, what's going to stop him?

No, maps like offices or bedlam won't stop him. There's only 1 berserker moving through those hallways, and 32 specimens all trying to cram into the same tight space. Pick good weapons to take advantage of the bottlenecks. Surprise spawns can be minimized by only camping in areas that maximize your LOS spawn blocking and knowing where the obscure spawn points are like overhead crawler and stalker spawns.

No, sirens, husks, and crawlers won't stop him even though they are his supposed "weakness"
. He 1 shots them with katana or pulls out his ranged weapon plus has 40% damage resistance letting him take the hits if need be.

No, needing to get close to specimens won't stop him
. He has superior movement speed and faster melee swing speed letting him kill the target specimen(s) before they can hit back. He can always run away to heal up before re-engaging.

So now we're back to what I said in the beginning, a bad choice. As players get better, their decision making gets better and they know the maps better. As a consequence, they cut down on the number of mistakes they make and their effectiveness with zerker increases.


4) No one's complaining about how the zerker plays within a team setting. The problem is the zerker doesn't need his team to be successful. Yeah, a support specialist or sharpshooter can utterly wipe out everything too without assistance. Only problem is they'll both run out of ammo fairly quickly if they have to do everything by themselves. Not to mention sharpshooters have a harder time dealing with FP now and supports can't stun scrakes with their weapons. Also, the margin of error is much smaller for rambo supports/sharps than it is for rambo zerkers. There are many reasons why you typically don't see rambo supports or sharpshooters in a 6 man game.
 
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Couple of things:

1) Total number of ammo and weapons spawns in a wave is independent of player count and difficulty. However, the number of pickups that are available at any given time varies with difficulty. Picking up said ammo box or weapon will trigger another spawn location to be used. When the next item becomes available is dependent on the number of players. For Suicidal and Hoe, there is only ever 1 ammo box and 1 weapon spawn at a time. Finding 9 ammo boxes in 7 waves isn't uncommon on a Suicidal/HoE game if the team spends a minute or so searching before the wave ends and in between waves. Neither is finding a spare LAR or armor.


Personaly I have only ever found Kevlar on custom maps when more than 1 person is playing. Today I went on West london, alone, I found Kevlar in a spot that it normaly is when I play WL alone, several ammo cans, and a HC (not all at the same time), after 2 people joined the only thing I saw that spawned was an ammo can here and there, and never more than one. The kevlar I refer to is normaly there when I play Westlondon alone, anytime I start the game with someone else I never see the Kevlar, or anything spawn in that particular place, and as a zerker running around I should be able to find it, but all I find is an ammo can, and the very ocasiaonal weapon, and I know that the spawned item will change after a certtain time, yet I have still to see it change to Kevlar I also see this in other maps as well, I am not above admiting that I am wrong, but it seems to me that there is better items spawning and faster spawning going on when I am alone than when I am not.

2) The 2 FPs + 4 Husks + whatever scenario is hardly a weakness. Any perk will hightail it out of there if a spawn like that caught them with their pants down. A smart zerker will run and fight with his ranged weapons until the husks are dead and the FPs are slightly split up. Failing that, the zerker can hide around corners or behind solid objects to keep the husks and sirens off of him while picking off whatever gets too close to him.

And every time he sticks his head out to shoot he will get hammerd by the husks, so yes I think it is a weakness sincce he has to hide, duck, and heal trying to kill them. If it was not a weakness he would simply run up and kill them.

Zerker don't solo everything because of a) bad decisions or b) unlucky spawns. Decision making is something that improves over time and unlucky spawns is mostly out of your control. But even with unlucky spawns, zerker still have the best chance to make a break for it and get some breathing room. Their +40% resistance also applies to fall damage too so running of a ledge for a quick break is always an option. Yes, a level 6 zerker can survive a fall from the 3rd story on Offices at full health, just don't jump out.

3) As for the supposed weaknesses laid out, I'm just going to copy this post from 2 weeks ago.




4) No one's complaining about how the zerker plays within a team setting. The problem is the zerker doesn't need his team to be successful. Yeah, a support specialist or sharpshooter can utterly wipe out everything too without assistance. Only problem is they'll both run out of ammo fairly quickly if they have to do everything by themselves. Not to mention sharpshooters have a harder time dealing with FP now and supports can't stun scrakes with their weapons. Also, the margin of error is much smaller for rambo supports/sharps than it is for rambo zerkers. There are many reasons why you typically don't see rambo supports or sharpshooters in a 6 man game.


I hope you do not see my posts as an aggressive reply, because they are not, just what I see in game, and what I think. I know you know alot about the game and test things to make sure, and to a lesser extent so do I, some people may take anything you say at face value, but I am not one of those people, no matter who it is.
 
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The Berserker is the easiest Perks to solo a 6 Player HoE Wave. I guess everyone can agree on that.

Since other Perks can do that too, albeit they'll have a smaller room for Errors, and need to continually look for Ammo Boxes. The really interesting question is how one can reduce the avaible margin of error avaible to the Berserker Perk, without killing it in general usefulness.

My suggestion would be to look at the avaible Combat Roles for all Perks and determine which part the Berserker doesn't need to fill.

Commando and Firebug excell at "Trash" ZED decimation and are very Cost effective at that
Demo and Support can decimate big Groups of small ZEDs or deal with big ZEDs, though Demo is long Range and Support Short Range.
Sharpshooter is ideal for Anti-Scrake and since the Balance still okay for FPs.
Medic can heal and support the Team with killing Trashs.

Berserker can kill all Trashs and deal with Big Ones, though FPs need to be kited. Its the most cost efficient perk.


So the Berserker can kill everything without resorting to non-perked Weapons, except for the FP (can be done but is risky).
Even if the Berserker could no longer kill the FP with his Melee Weapons, he could use the M32/LAR etc. So the other BIG Zed capable of dealing with the Berserker is the Scrake but does one want to remove the Ability from the Berserker to stun the Scrake?

Perhaps we should talk about what would be an appropiate Weakness for the Berserker.

Removing/Reducing the Movement Speed of the Berserker might reduce the avaible Margin of Error, but could also result in a decrease in general effectiveness.

Instead of reducing the general Damage reduction, one could reduce it on a per ZED Base. After all the Berserker Job is to be there up front and personal, kicking **s and take Names.
Perhaps no damage Reduction against Husks ?
 
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