Commissar--No retreat, muhahahaha

[OneBloodyHero]

REVISED FROM ORIGINAL:

Well, my suggestion/idea is for the implementation of a commissar role in Heroes of Stalingrad.

These inspirational officers were prevalent in battle and usually held morale at steady levels in attack and defense (This notion being debatable because some commissars were initially Red Army officers with military experience who were subsequently commissioned as commissars for practical purposes. Also, after October 10, 1942, commissars lost all control or significant influence over military command and decision making, becoming completely subordinate to military officials--this being at the strategic level. Yet, there are insinuations that commissars participated in battle at the platoon > level.).

It would be unique and in tune with the atmosphere of the battle of Stalingrad to add the Commissar class/role to the new RO:HOS. I don't know what the commissar s inventory would hold, but it would be safe to assume he was equipped similar to a Red Army officer. Basically, the Commissar would be equipped with a pistol and wear a unique uniform (I guess he would look like officer, but I believe he had an armband or some other physical discrepancy which reflected his commissar status).

The Commissar player would try to hold morale in battle. So my suggestion would be to allow the Commissar, while in the objective zones, to execute players that try to leave the object area and give him points for performing his job. Similarly, if soldiers are sniping in spawn with PPSHs he can subsequently order them to attack or shoot them for cowardice, and get points for it . (THIS BEING OPTIONAL BECAUSE IT IS VERY MORBID AND HISTORICALLY AMBIGUOUS.)

More practically, however. The defense portion of Commissar's class: he makes sure people stay in the objective zone and not retreat (aka not getting in cap), might readily be implemented. The Commissar may have higher capping (or anti-capping) ability than regular army officers, so for example if a platoon leader has 1.5x capping power, a commissar may have 2.5x. This exponential capping power could symbolize morale boost because of his inspirational status.

But the attack portion might be harder to balance. I think the commissar role would be ideally suited for Soviet defensive maps, rather than offensive. But, I know there are references of commissars conducting local attacks, so it would be prudent, because of their perceived inspirational status, to give higher capping power as already mentioned.

I suspect the bombardment of arguments against this is that people will manipulate this and go crazy and kill friendlies. True. But people friendlies kill no matter what, and they get kicked for it. For the Commissar to get points he needs to or try to execute players leaving the objective area, or those that fail to comply to attack orders. Basically, for the Commissar class to be fairly implemented, strict limitations to get points for his patriotic deeds would apply. (Again, this is very morbid and historically ambiguous)

I know there is some debate whether commissar s lead men into battle on RO or HOS scaled battles (platoon and up levels). There are hollywood movies which portray some things which I said here, and believe me, Enemy of the Gates was not the inspiration for this idea. Frankly, I think that movie sucked massive hairy sweaty balls...

ALTERNATIVELY:

I think HOS should implement NKVD units and officers. I know that a NKVD division fought at Stalingrad. So if Commissars are too icky to add, looking at NKVD units and officers may be an alternative, but I believe there is a dedicated thread to that idea already...

 

[Jaesperson]

no thanks. sounds like a rather boring one trick pony to me. i dont expect anyone to waste time on coding/modeling that class.

 

[Moyako]

no thanks. sounds like a rather boring one trick pony to me. i dont expect anyone to waste time on coding/modeling that class.

agreed

 

[OneBloodyHero]

OK. Responses with absolutely no substance. Why not good?

I don't think it is something of a gem of an idea, but one that won't require a full reworking of the game to implement. Also, the class can be applied to maps where human waves, or complete disarray was prevalent, like the landings at the rivers shores by Russian troops, which were essentially hordes without any training.

Also, Commissars might encourage players to actually participate in capturing or defending objectives.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

Oh god, not this again...
Read some history books please, and don't believe this 'info' from Enemy at the Gates or Call of Duty...

 

[The_Emperor]

Yes Russians did shoot their own people for cowardice when running away instead of facing the enemy.
Still how you know if someone is really coward and other if he's just trying to get a better spot for defending or supporting the attack? That wouldn't work. Yet newcomers and also mod veterans won't find this too funny when they get shot by a commissar in order to get a better spot.

 

[PETERPANs]

hahaha a teamkilling commissar would be nice while you are on other side.

 

[Bluehawk]

The Red Army had blocking detachments to prevent retreat but they ended up axing them because they were 1) typing up manpower and 2) completely destroying frontline morale.

The Commisar's role was to advise the commanding officer and to ensure that the men were properly motivated, politically speaking, but shooting traitors FOR THE GLORY OF THE MOTHERLAND was a very rare extreme resort and not part of the job description. Typically, at the the very worst, he would report the soldier to the NKVD and they would take him away to be investigated, tried and then either sent to a penal battalion or to the bottom of a ditch.

Delivering redundant speeches and filling out paperwork would not make for a great addition to Red Orchestra, I don't think

 

[The_Emperor]

Delivering redundant speeches and filling out paperwork would not make for a great addition to Red Orchestra, I don't think

Don't ya think that'll be awesome Red Orchestra: Heroes of Feather and Paper

 

[D3terioNation]

Sorry but this idea is ridiculous!

Firstly no-one 'deserts' in an online game

And secondly what kind of moron would choose a class where his main role is to literally hunt down his own men!

For this class to be useful maybe he should only allowed to shoot his own 'sniper' if he's too rubbish!!

 

[FlyXwire]

Of course Commissar battle executions were historically accurate, but can you imagine the outrage of codifying "team kills" in multiplayer!

I'd guess the game would have to grant perk advancements for the Commissar class players for any side(s) kills then!

Having Commissars driving a Soviet assualt forward, or holding their troops in position could work in SP missions, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster in the MP arena.

 

[PETERPANs]

I think that commissar should get sub-machine gun. You need lot of bullets for deserters.

Also grenades would be useful. Hypotetic scenario:

After commissar run around pillbox he saw some deserters inside, than he trow grenade inside.

 

[FlyXwire]

After commissar run around pillbox he saw some deserters inside, than he trow grenade inside.

How many commissars does it take to change a lightbulb?

(after the shoot-out.....only one)

 

[Brendan]

In RnL, if you are nearby your squad leader, you aren't suppressed by enemy fire as easily and you have increased stamina. What do you think about having these perks or different ones when nearby a commissar? Just theoretical thought.

 

[Jaesperson]

i think having increased stamina and less suppression next to a squad leader in RO would be just as good as an idea. no need for a silly commissar class here, either

 

[RedGuardist]

The Red Army had blocking detachments to prevent retreat but they ended up axing them because they were 1) typing up manpower and 2) completely destroying frontline morale.

The Commisar's role was to advise the commanding officer and to ensure that the men were properly motivated, politically speaking, but shooting traitors FOR THE GLORY OF THE MOTHERLAND was a very rare extreme resort and not part of the job description. Typically, at the the very worst, he would report the soldier to the NKVD and they would take him away to be investigated, tried and then either sent to a penal battalion or to the bottom of a ditch.

Delivering redundant speeches and filling out paperwork would not make for a great addition to Red Orchestra, I don't think

Good post Bluehawk.

I hope this clears the purpose of commissar to everyone. Especially to the OP.

@ OP. Enemy at the Gates is not a good source on this matter.

 

[FlyXwire]

Uncle Joe deemed a few would need a re-education (issued on 28 July 1942, at the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad):

ORDER #227 BY THE PEOPLE’S COMMISSAR OF DEFENSE OF THE USSR

THE SUPREME COMMAND OF THE RED ARMY ORDERS:

"This order is to be read aloud in all companies, troops, batteries, squadrons, teams and staffs."

2. The Military Councils of armies and first of all army commanders should:

b) Form 3 to 5 well-armed guards (barrage) units (zagradotryads), deploy them in the rear of unstable divisions and oblige them to execute panic-mongers and cowards at site in case of panic and chaotic retreat, thus giving faithful soldiers a chance to do their duty before the Motherland;

3. Corps and division commanders and commissars should:

b) Provide all possible help and support to the guards (barrage) units (zagradotryads) of the army in their work of strengthening discipline and order in the units.

[URL="http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html"][URL]http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html

Soviet postage stamp issued: "Not A Single Step Back":

http://pic.srv104.wapedia.mobi/thumb/e27f14605/en/max/1440/900/Voennaia_marka_Ni_shagu_nazad%21.jpg?format=jpg,png,gif[/URL][/URL]

 

[Atomskytten]

A lot of players could use a Commisar to ensure that they do as they are supposed to do - far too many n00bs/egomaniacs running around who either don't understand how the game works or they just don't want to help the team to victory just because they can.
Any way of punishing and forcing those players to play the game as intended is good in my opinion.

+1 to suggestion

 

[D3terioNation]

Uncle Joe deemed a few would need a re-education (issued on 28 July 1942, at the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad):

ORDER #227 BY THE PEOPLE

 

[FlyXwire]

That was a good read. Thanks

You're most welcome D3terioNation.

From "Stalingrad, The Fateful Siege: 1942-1943", Chapter "Traitors and Allies", by Anthony Beevor:

"Commissars blamed 'the carelessness and good-heartedness of officers' for desertion in a unit. But there were also countless cases of officers using their accepted right to shoot to kill as 'an extreme measure to be used only on active service when a Red Army man refuses to fulfil a military order or retreats from the field of battle'. On a rare occasion, however, the authorities considered that officers had been overharsh. 'During the night of 17/18 October, two soldiers disappeared from [204th Rifle Division in 64th Army]. The regimental commander and the commissar ordered the company commander to execute the platoon commander of the men who had deserted.' This nineteen-year-old junior lieutenant had joined the regiment only five days before, and scarcely knew the two deserters from his platoon. 'The company commander obeyed the order. He went to his trench and, in the presence of the commissar, shot him dead.' "

"In many cases, the authorities in the deserter's home neighbourhood were also informed. The family could then be persecuted under Order No. 270 as an extra punishement but, above all, as a warning. Commissars and the Special Department officers on the Stalingrad Front saw reprisals against close relatives as absolutely essential to deter others who might be tempted to run away."

"Establishing a ferocious discipline was hard at first. Not until 8 October did the political department of the Stalingrad Front feel able to report to Moscow that 'the defeatist mood is almost eliminated, and the number of treasonous incidents is getting lower'. That the Soiviet regime was almost as unforgiving towards its own soldiers as towards the enemy is demonstrated by the total figure of 13,500 executions, both summary and judicial, during the battle of Stalingrad. This included all crimes classed by the commissars as 'extraordinary events', from retreating without orders to self-inflicted wounds, desertion, crossing over to the enemy, corruption and anti-Soviet activities. Red Army soldiers were also deemed guilty if they failed to shoot immediately at any comrades seen trying to desert or to surrender to the enemy. On one occasion in late September, when a group of Soviet soldiers surrendered, German tanks advanced rapidly to protect them from fire directed at them from their own lines."

Would any of these forms of military/political enforcement possibly work within an entertainrment environment such as Heroes of Stalingrad is meant to be? I figure the saying "be careful of what you wish for" might well be applied.