Squad Clan names, tags and war crimes

[Pagan]

theres swastikas in the game.

theres maps that the axis side should represent an SS unit in the game.

disallowing swastikas/ss runes/ on the board is hypocrisy

There are no swasitkas in the German version, having the SS represented in maps where they actually fought is entirely different from someone who actively chooses for whatever reason to promote them online or in real life and as for hipocrisy you should realise that most if not all of the Euros here have had their families involved in WW2 directly so this is a very contentious subject one which I suggest you read up on in non subjective sources.

 

[[MetaL]DiezeL]

Hypocrisy, theres a good word, it exists everywhere, within all of us to some greater or lesser degree, some might say not at all, but do you suppose that it might seem hypocritical, war itself i mean, the killing of individuals, by one way or the other, all war is a crime fullstop, to send millions to their deaths and also put countless other millions in mortal danger due to the actions of a few, and you want to talk about hypocrisy, well people playing a war game rooted in history concerned about certain elements being basically there atall, and also really whether or not groups such as the SS should ever be muttered from our mouths ever, full stop, with the fear that any such attention in any way might somehow glorify it, yet we "play" the history to a censored level on our computers with our friends, with only the knowledge each of us have of such a huge and tragic event that was WW2, there is only so much each of us is willing to face or be confronted with, IMO if you participate in the subject of Warfare and that warfare is based on a real event, a real battle or a real World War, all the facts should be out in the open, there will be no choice to what you see or hear for it is all rooted in history, and history is forever unchanged, the only thing that changes is peoples tolerances, from person to person and that should be respected by each of us, but does not mean we hide things under the carpet in order to please individuals who are against seeing, hearing or acknowledging any hint of somthing so terrible.

To exclude elements from a historical "war game" is hypocritical, to be "ok" with the act of killing enough to be able to simulate it yourself in a game but be offended by the methods of some in the real life event to want them omitted and never spoke of i say is hypocritical, to single out a regime amongst the countless hundreds if not thousands that have and still exist is hypocritical and plain absurd, it seems very selective i have to say, and why it happens illudes me, the plain fact is if you wanna play war then be man enough to accept the possibility you might not like everything you see, you might not agree with what people are comfortable with, or what side they take or what sig they use or nick they have,....... deal with it....... and have a little faith that most of us know right from wrong and very very few of us in this world are like those who were the cause of the deaths of countless millions, millions of people like you and like me, lets all remember the individuals not the regimes or insignia, a handfull of men, remember that.

 

[|9.SS|VonHiltz]

(not directed at anyone, just some more arguements)

War is hell, period. For anyone to put so much emphasis on the terrible acts of the SS is to not look at the whole war with an open mind. It is an injustice to those young men who just thought they were being patriotic. The Kriegsmarine not only sunk ships with non combatant merchant mariners on it. They also sank a British liner with over 400 young children travelling to Canada. Who's parents were trying to save them from the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain.
So by this you could make a point for not playing SilentHunter III also. But at the same time Allied shipping left thier own men to die in the North Atlantic after U boat attacks for the reason of self preservation.

I guess it is all in your perspective. Bomber Command killed like 60,000 citizens of Dresden in one night. But because they were Allies they get a pass from the eyes of world community. I doubt the people of Dresden were the sole cause of WW2. Its just the way it goes the whole city was deemed a military target.

And should Russia get a pass, many forget Stalin and the little Austrians pact to conquer Poland and split it down the middle. Before that treaty dissolved and the H man (not sure if were even allowed to say his name lol) took off after the important oil reserves of the Ukraine. And that right there gives the concept for the game we play. If you read about General Patton he had more respect for his German opponents than his French or Russian Allies.

So blame the administration, not the soldier in all conflicts. Can we go game now?

 

[HerrPorsche]

This is a game, once and for all. Guys, just have a good time with it and stop trying to put at all of your political views into it. This is getting a little redundant with the political views constantly being thrown around. It is a game please get over any pre-concieved views you have. Lets just all have a good time with a game we obviously all like very much. No one is going to change any pre-concieved view anyone else has. Lets stop drawing undo attention to the game and draw in more people to enjoy it.

 

[[MetaL]DiezeL]

Thats right it is a game, a war game, would you say the same thing if a game came out about 9/11, i dont think so, funny thing is we have all gotten so descensitised over these world wars over time that my comments on a 9/11 game may seem unacceptable to many, if so i agree with you, but dont you think if it had been possible to bring out a WW2 game in 1948 it also would have been totally unacceptable? but now its ok funny old world this..........................and HerrPorsche you are correct, no one is going to change their views, so leave ya views out of it when ya head in game.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

theres swastikas in the game.

theres maps that the axis side should represent an SS unit in the game.

disallowing swastikas/ss runes/ on the board is hypocrisy

No it is not hypocrisy. In game, it is for historical accuracy. Swastikas and SS are part of our history and should never be forgotten.

On the boards though, it is "Wiederbet

 

[Felix Ostheim]

Once again you fail to designate between Waffen-SS--Not SD and Gestapo etc--and Nazi politicians. You also fail to realize that not only did the Heer commit many warcrimes itself--just much less publicized and blamed on the SS--but the Heer was the willing elbow grease in the Nazi conquering and oppression of Europe, the WSS was only 7% of the Wehrmacht. While I understand it's illegal in Germany and Austria where you obviously live it's not illegal in the vast majority of other countries where there are more pure concepts of free speech.

 

[Pagan]

Why would anyone designate a difference between the SS, Waffen or not? They were the armed branch of the Nazi political wing.

 

[Lucius]

Once again you fail to designate between Waffen-SS--Not SD and Gestapo etc--and Nazi politicians. You also fail to realize that not only did the Heer commit many warcrimes itself--just much less publicized and blamed on the SS--but the Heer was the willing elbow grease in the Nazi conquering and oppression of Europe, the WSS was only 7% of the Wehrmacht. While I understand it's illegal in Germany and Austria where you obviously live it's not illegal in the vast majority of other countries where there are more pure concepts of free speech.

While it is not illegal in the vast majority of other countries, it is still a very touchy subject and offending to the vast majority of the people living there. And the SS is most critized because it has been tried and convicted for most and the worst of the crimes as a whole.

Now I was already somewhat offended by the re-enacting/glorifying of the SS, but that you ppl are actually defending them is starting to piss me off.

 

[Bat Guano]

This always turns into a debate about war crimes, with the SS defenders arguing that some SS units may have committed war crimes but not all of them did, or that other nations also committed war crimes, or that Stalin killed more people than Hitler, etc., but the commission of war crimes is only tangential to the issue of why so many are offended by the glorification of the SS. It's not the actions of the SS alone that are at issue, it's the ideology on which it is based.

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, the SS was not simply some kind of "elite" unit formed out of the regular army, like modern day special forces. Yes, SS units had the reputation of being tough soldiers but that's not their defining characteristic. The SS was the armed wing of the Nazi party. Period. They were intended to be a sort of "praetorian guard" to defend and further the aims of the Nazi party. While other German servicemen may or may not have been Nazis and may or may not have been supportive of the Nazi agenda - just like American soldiers currently serving in Iraq may or may not be supporters of George W. Bush and the Republican Party and may or may not believe in the rationale behind that war -- there is no separating the SS from the Nazi party and its ideology.

A member of the SS was by definition a Nazi. The Nazi ideology was based on the belief in the superiority of the "Aryan" race and on the elimination or subjugation of "inferior" races. Whether or not individual SS units or soldiers put these ideals into action, this is what they stood for, and this is why people take offense at those who would promote or defend them.

 

[{2.SS}Switzer]

Woah gentlemen. I didnt mean to firestart this topic again! I believe I made my point and others did as well. Every form or another has hipocrasy (still cant spell that) in it. I really like what alot of you said with, its a war game just play it.
To the point of Stalin and Hitler, I have NEVER said that Hitlers crimes were any less, but let me put it this way, and I DO NOT mean to offend anyone by this. I would rather have been murdered by the Nazis then enslaved by the Stalinists and made to do slave labor and starve all my life in the USSR. Only death brings true freedom. The entire Russian population was enslaved, tortured and exploited for almost 100 years by the most inhuman regime ever to exist.
So back to alot of really good points. Just play the game, and if it offends you dont be around it. Or in some cases ban them from your server, because I will just play on my server and not bother you otherwise. =p

 

[|9.SS|VonHiltz]

Understandably a touchy subject, and rightfully so. When I started up the 9th SS Panzer Divison. In no way did I have an ideaology of tribute to Himmler or Nazi philosophies as a motive. Possibly nieve to the backlash of sentiment to be recieved on this topic I really just wanted to depict a unit of aunthenticity from the game we play. Yes I could have choosen a Wehrmacht Division or Regiment instead, but as a student of history and knowing the reputation of the SS as being tenacious combatants. I choose a unit which contained better trained, better equiped and more often called apoun soldiers.

Soldiers being the key phrase. In Red Orchestra Ostfront I don't believe there are any senior staff officer kits available. This game is about the "kids" who fought the battles of the Eastern Front. These kids both Waffen SS & regular Wehrmacht alike were all indoctrinized to believe in what they were doing. Waffen SS most likely had more of this mental training. Yet both were also well aware that retreat was not an option. So being between a rock and a hard place they fought as best they could. Cause they had no choice.

In this document I state to potential recruits why I feel my depiction of the soldiers of 9th SS is acceptable. http://9th-ss-panzerdivision.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

In my opinion to paint all SS units with the same brush and call them war criminals may be stretching the truth about the actions of various units. In regards to some Waffen SS units that were labeled as perpetrators at Nurnberg. According to Charles Syndor Jr. in his publication "Soldiers of Destruction" http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/847.html

"...The SS Divisions Wiking, Hohenstaufen, and Freundsberg committed no such attrocities..."


Nevertheless if someone provides me uncontestable proof that the 9th SS committed massive war crimes or attrocities against soldiers or civilians. I will glady remove my clans association with this or any unit that served the NAZI party.

Another term being thrown around these forums far too much is "War Crimes" This is far to broad a terminology to be used so carelessly.

"History is always written by the victor, and the histories of the losing parties belong to the shrinking circle of those who were there."

Even thought coined by a senior Waffen SS Officer. As in the case of the outcomes of the Nurnberg trials prove, a true observation nonetheless. If folks are going to use the term war crime as a blanket statement to label all soldiers of the SS. Then we have lost our objectivity on what really happened in WW2.

First off, the Nazi final solution. This is without question a war crime against humanity. And that is all I will say on that topic. Nevetheless labeling units by the same term "WC" ( I hate using it so much) for shooting troops that surrendered in battle, may very well be a topic open to debate.

The 12th SS was accused and one of thier senior officers Kurt Meyer was convicted of murdering Candian POW's on D-Day and the weeks to follow. A good book on this is called Conduct Unbecoming by Howard Margolian
http://www.goodreports.net/reviews/conductunbecoming.htm

His actions were condemable due to the nature in which he committed these acts. eg. lying Canadian troops down and driving tanks over them ect. ect. Yet Units engaged in battle, especially the SS who were most often on the spearhead of an offensive. Were in no way capable of accepting prisoners and to do so may have compromised thier positions and risked the lives of thier own soldiers. So if you rationalize killing one man to save others, as must be done in war, how is that a crime?

And you compare this to the fact that Allied troops (especially the Airborne Regiments) on D-Day and at Operation Market Garden. Were in the exact same postion and also under order to not take prisoners. So does this also condemn the Allies as war criminals. Only if the Germans were afforded the right to present thier side of the story after the war. Which they were not!

So to summarize this post (sorry bout the length) I myself, and I am am sure I speak for other SS clans (without permission) pay homage to the young men who fought the battles unconditionally for thier egomanic leaders. In war soldiers die on both sides for words like freedom, patriotism, rightousness.
We should celebrate and remember their lives and the sacrifices made by the masses. Not rekindle the madness of the few..

For the record I am not German and my relatives fought against the Axis in WW1 & WW2. So I would like to think I have in my soul made peace with Germany and have objectivity to the real facts of these wars.

One more time.... It's about the soldiers.

 

[Pagan]

I am sorry but no matter how much apologists try to downplay the role of certain SS divisions in alleged war crimes it does not excuse the fact that they were members of a henious group which was proscribed as an illegal organisation in its entirety by the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals. All SS units had alleged war crimes attributed to them not all were proven due to a number of factors some of them being the lack of witnessess for instance. In 1941 a detachment from the Wiking Division shot 600 Jews in Galicia as a reprisal for

 

[Switchblade]

I am surprised this topic is coming alive time and time again.

I think the rules are clear and if the realism clans take note of them and live up to them there is no problem,

 

[|9.SS|VonHiltz]

Woah gentlemen. I didnt mean to firestart this topic again! I believe I made my point and others did as well. Every form or another has hipocrasy (still cant spell that) in it. I really like what alot of you said with, its a war game just play it.
To the point of Stalin and Hitler, I have NEVER said that Hitlers crimes were any less, but let me put it this way, and I DO NOT mean to offend anyone by this. I would rather have been murdered by the Nazis then enslaved by the Stalinists and made to do slave labor and starve all my life in the USSR. Only death brings true freedom. The entire Russian population was enslaved, tortured and exploited for almost 100 years by the most inhuman regime ever to exist.
So back to alot of really good points. Just play the game, and if it offends you dont be around it. Or in some cases ban them from your server, because I will just play on my server and not bother you otherwise. =p

Sorry for back to back post guys......

I agree that being a prisoner of the Russians was basically a death sentence. While fact checking my mini novel of a post I found this bit of History.

"The final fate of the Totenkopf was in many ways a Goetterdammerung: Totenkopf managed to surrender to the Americans in Austria, but its members were handed over to the Soviets supposedly because it did almost all of its fighting in the East, a fate not shared by the LAH and Das Reich because they fought extensively on the Western Front. Few Totenkopf members survived Soviet captivity".

Also from Soldiers of Destruction by Charles Syndor Jr.

I guess my point is that Stalin was a co-conspirator with Hitler in the begining of WW2. Seems like the Germans took the blunt of blame.

But not if Patton had has his way!

 

[|9.SS|CyberHawke]

I am sorry but no matter how much apologists try to downplay the role of certain SS divisions in alleged war crimes it does not excuse the fact that they were members of a henious group which was proscribed as an illegal organisation in its entirety by the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals. All SS units had alleged war crimes attributed to them not all were proven due to a number of factors some of them being the lack of witnessess for instance. In 1941 a detachment from the Wiking Division shot 600 Jews in Galicia as a reprisal for ‘Soviet crimes’. As all SS members received the same indoctrination and the fact that the orginisation was a principal and integral part of the Nazi Party I find the idea of honourable SS units frankly bizzare.

I don't think anyone is trying to downplay the actions of the Axis War Machine (unless that's not acceptable terminology either ) during and leading up to WW2.

1. This game is not a celebration of World War 2, or either "side".
2. Choosing to be a "realism" clan does not imply that your organization embraces the actions of that side.
3. There should be no corrollary between the side one chooses to play on when entering a server and ones personal beliefs.
4. This game was created with military and historical accuracy to depict a particular campaign (Red Orchestra) during the war as it was along the Eastern Front. To neuter the game of its realism in that regard is ridiculous.

I swear some of the arguments here are laughable. I'm sorry to call you out on this, Pagan, but if this were a Harry Potter realism game, and I chose to play Quidditch for House Slitherin, am I suddenly a follower of Lord Voldemort?

 

[|9.SS|VonHiltz]

I am sorry but no matter how much apologists try to downplay the role of certain SS divisions in alleged war crimes it does not excuse the fact that they were members of a henious group which was proscribed as an illegal organisation in its entirety by the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals. All SS units had alleged war crimes attributed to them not all were proven due to a number of factors some of them being the lack of witnessess for instance. In 1941 a detachment from the Wiking Division shot 600 Jews in Galicia as a reprisal for ‘Soviet crimes’. As all SS members received the same indoctrination and the fact that the orginisation was a principal and integral part of the Nazi Party I find the idea of honourable SS units frankly bizzare.

I understand you totally, but if I tell you to kill someone or I will kill you. And you know I will do it. What are you going to do. I seriously question the reality of hundreds of thousands of German youth waking up one morning with a desire to obliterate the world. You are right SS hierarchy was full of sociopaths. The average Sch

 

[Pagan]

Harry Potter? Quidditch? What on earth have you been smoking? How can you possibly go from SS war crimes and try to tie it into a childrens fantasy book?
I have never argued for the removal of any realism from the game and that includes SS being on maps. Your saying "no corrollary between the side one chooses to play on when entering a server and ones personal beliefs" is true however choosing to "re enact" something like the SS is completly different and not to understand the feelings that will evoke in a large number of people is naive.