Camp spots has to go

[Gudenrath]

Camping doesn't have to mean everyone in a room with only 1 entrance.

I have no problem with camping otherwise.

The problem is exactly with camping where there is only 1 or 2 entrances. That was rampant in KF1. And that is the boring part of this game, and while they have tried to diminish the number of locations on the current maps where this is possible, there are unfortunately a few places left where this happens.

 

[Shining Wolf]

The camping vs kiting thing is more so a map issue than a perk and zed balance issue at this point. If a map is designed for one camping spot, it should be an interesting camping spot at the very least. I think west london did this well with the tunnel since the choke points at least have a wide angle and being demo kr sharp on a car is a good vantage point as well as being fun. However, most maps do NOT have fun or interesting, whole game camping spots. Every time I go to bedlam, I pray that the people want to use the balcony area instead of the hall next to spawn. Evil santa doesn't really have a hard choke area besides the huge ramp, which is very dark, anyway.

When a camping spot makes the majority of the map useless for the rest of the match, that's an issue, but that's also a map problem. What needs to be modified are the TW maps if they really want the game to force people to move every couple of waves.

Do you guys ever play Suicidal+

They're *always* sprinting at you

I don't really notice a speed increase on suicidal. I still wipe constantly on all difficulties with different maps, but suicidal zeds to only have a chance to come in raged.

 

[Shining Wolf]

Something interesting that I just now realized, is that Hans does a GREAT job at forcing the kind of movement the OP is talking about. Hans uses crowd control effects which leave you with no choice but to keep moving. While it doesn't always result in you moving from room to room, the overall experience is still more dynamic than crouching in a corner and clicking. The big zeds don't really accomplish this because it's typically safer to try to kill them right away than to run around, because of how easy it is to get sandwhiched by zeds. Sirens are not threatening enough to warrant moving around. I still think a large, tanky, slow zed is needed to help with this. It would take too much firepower to kill right away, and you can't afford to let it get close to you, so you'd have to move to another room or at the very least move around a bit while being weary of your surroundings so it doesn't creep up on you. Also, it wouldn't hurt if some kind of zed had an ability like Hans' poison grenades which make a certain area dangerous for a few moments. Some sort of husk variant might fit this role nicely.

Basically a mini nemesis is needed to break up groups, yeah. The thing that people have to run from. Scrakes and fps before the end of the wave do this with groups that don't know or aren't confident that they can take them out until everything else is gone and force everyone to be running from them or it while managing trash zeds. It's actually disapointing to me when the trash is gone and the thing we once feared just gets focused and died.

An unkillable scrake every once in a while would do this on its own, but the ranged ideas could work, too. I've been wanting this kind of thing for a while, but this would change the way the entire game is played and would require TW instead of just map makers just making maps that certain people want to play on for that experience.

 

[Gladius]

Every time I joined servers running difficulties above hard, it was an absolute snooze-fest. On a team of six it only took four people to hold back the zeds so effectively that none ever made it INTO the room, and one of those people was a Sharpshooter who literally did nothing unless a FP showed up.

So that's one player who got to shoot at ~3 zeds per wave, a berzerker whose entire job was to stay crouched and hold M1 in the doorway, a medic whose entire job was just to sit there and heal the 'zerker [...]

What you describe here is how bad pubs play HoE. And usually it's not the 2k hours player who does that, because it is indeed boring and effortless. Usually it's the player that is new to HoE and his main motivation is to get the map achievement, no matter how cheesy and boring it is.

Seasoned players camp in spots that aren't boring. In example the lobby on Hospital of Horrors. Holding there is actually quite challenging and anything but a snoozefest.

But making camping generally impossible is the wrong solution to prevent baddies to cheese their achievements. The solution should come through map design and not through game mechanics that permanently force the players to be on the run.

It's the choice of the players what they do. And bad players tend to make bad choices. But we should be very careful about what game mechanics we ask to force down everybodys throat.

 

[Gladius]

However, most maps do NOT have fun or interesting, whole game camping spots. Every time I go to bedlam, I pray that the people want to use the balcony area instead of the hall next to spawn. Evil santa doesn't really have a hard choke area besides the huge ramp, which is very dark, anyway.

Try on Bedlam the yard or the pool. On Evil Santas the generator room is quite popular. There are always more spots but it's hard to describe without pictures.

The thing is that when you are playing on a server with random pubs, they usually refuse to do anything else then the safest approach to win.
If you want to have fun on HoE you need to stick around long enough to find out who the active seasoned players are and on what servers they tend to play. And there starts a whole new gaming experience.

 

[Rainydaykid]

Try on Bedlam the yard or the pool. On Evil Santas the generator room is quite popular. There are always more spots but it's hard to describe without pictures.

The thing is that when you are playing on a server with random pubs, they usually refuse to do anything else then the safest approach to win.
If you want to have fun on HoE you need to stick around long enough to find out who the active seasoned players are and on what servers they tend to play. And there starts a whole new gaming experience.

Yeah, I had the pleasure of gaming a lot of hours on HoE with some really good players on KF1. It was a lot of fun.

 

[CrashFu]

What you describe here is how bad pubs play HoE. And usually it's not the 2k hours player who does that, because it is indeed boring and effortless. Usually it's the player that is new to HoE and his main motivation is to get the map achievement, no matter how cheesy and boring it is.

Seasoned players camp in spots that aren't boring. In example the lobby on Hospital of Horrors. Holding there is actually quite challenging and anything but a snoozefest.

But making camping generally impossible is the wrong solution to prevent baddies to cheese their achievements. The solution should come through map design and not through game mechanics that permanently force the players to be on the run.

It's the choice of the players what they do. And bad players tend to make bad choices. But we should be very careful about what game mechanics we ask to force down everybodys throat.

Yeah, I hope you're right. Still, I'm not going to be able to shake this impression of high-difficulty play as this mindless over-cautious snoozefest until I actually see it done right first-hand.

Like I said a little further up, I'm already thinking that camping in KF2 is much less foolproof and more fun, mainly because you really can't say "Let's keep going back to this room every time" and expect it to go well. Of course, people will still try out of KF1 habit, but I figure eventually they'll learn that they need to migrate through different camping spots to take advantage of doors they haven't broken yet, eh?

 

[Gladius]

Of course, people will still try out of KF1 habit, but I figure eventually they'll learn that they need to migrate through different camping spots to take advantage of doors they haven't broken yet, eh?

Or maybe just leave the doors open and kill stuff, eh?

 

[Mushroom]

Killing floor 1 was successful as it was, allowing either camping and kiting. Most (specially on lower difficulties) preferred camping because either they couldn't kite or found it less appealing unless they were hunting achievements (or not).

The problem with camping was that it would be the same place every time on every game and zeds were too slow and dull, but as someone said earlier, on higher difficulties it required everyone to fulfill their roles accordingly. It required coordination and knowledge of lots of mechanics (again, higher difficulties).

Kiting was too effective, being really easy to pull off as a medizerk. It was fun as well but made the games too long and uninteresting for some.

Killing floor 2 should not eradicate either of the gamestyles. Camping has more mechanics to take into account now that doors don not regenerate, lights go off, crawlers will walk on wall and zeds have much more elaborated behaviors (way more difficult to deal with).

Also, kiting does not encourage teamplay as much as camping does (everyone has to fulfill their roles and deal with zeds as they spawn)

 

[poosh]

I have no problem with camping otherwise.

The problem is exactly with camping where there is only 1 or 2 entrances. That was rampant in KF1. And that is the boring part of this game, and while they have tried to diminish the number of locations on the current maps where this is possible, there are unfortunately a few places left where this happens.

More entrances = harder to camp = easier to kite.

Make 4 entrances into each area, and kiting will become a piece of cake.

 

[KriSz]

You should try camping in cuicide or hoe.
Just a hint: you will fail.
Also, while we are at it: Iam not against the kiting combat, but the teleporting zed army make that painfull.
So now it looks like this: we camp until we are driven out then we start to kite. And i think its fine.

 

[Ninja Satsu]

Dude, you completely missed what Amber was saying.

They were arguing against the idea that camping is automatically EZ mode, because Crash was saying "Mindless camping and easy victories are something that should only be possible on the lowest difficulty not something people require you to do with them on higher difficulties because they don't have the skill or courage to win without being as cheap as possible."

People generally hold the opinion that kiting is easier than camping. I personally always thought it was the opposite, but I didn't play KF1 at the harder difficulties that much.

lol, calm down dude.

No, I think you do not understand me. I'm not talking about the easy mode that is KF2 currently. Im talking about running and shooting in when the game is finished. Running and shooting is very hard in Gears of War and BO Zombies as examples. They force you to camp and run. You cannot do one without the other. But KF seems to drift toward camping.

In KF1 you could literally camp the whole time. KF2 is too easy, and half finished, so I do not care what the current meta is. Amber is worried that the final product will be camping all the time. That is my worry too.

Once all the classes, and weapons are released then it will be easy to camp. They doesn't force you to move in terms of core mechanics.

 

[Shining Wolf]

Try on Bedlam the yard or the pool. On Evil Santas the generator room is quite popular. There are always more spots but it's hard to describe without pictures.

The thing is that when you are playing on a server with random pubs, they usually refuse to do anything else then the safest approach to win.
If you want to have fun on HoE you need to stick around long enough to find out who the active seasoned players are and on what servers they tend to play. And there starts a whole new gaming experience.

I've found tha opposite to be true. Hoe players always know where the best spots are but hard players don't necessarily. I find more variety in locations for sure with hard

 

[Gladius]

I've found tha opposite to be true. Hoe players always know where the best spots are but hard players don't necessarily. I find more variety in locations for sure with hard

The opposite of what? On hard it just doesn't matter because everybody with half a brain can easily survive alone.
On HoE it requires more individual skill or teamplay. Uncooridinated random pubs tend to go therefore to the easiest position. But that doesn't mean that other positions are not possible.

 

[Johnnymode]

I actually like the way it is now.

HoE is challenging, Suicidal is kinda like old HoE, and all the other are just fun for casual entertainment.

Kiting in kf 1 was bad excuse for being bad, unless you had team with perks that were not even supposed to kite, example follows :

HoE Forgotten kite, no zerks.

That actually takes some ammount of thinking and planning, whereas something like

HoE Westlondon kite, 5 zerks 1 med.
Pointless running for 90 minutes, with most overpowered perk (and still running away).

In camping, individual skill can shine, whereas kiting heavily relies on ESCAPING zeds.

Gitgud

Here is some quality "camping", where none of the threads replies can do.
Neither can i.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvofhKUKXJo

 

[Amber Glass]

Go play Sniper if you love camping so much. Some of us play video games because we like the idea of being an action hero. I don't know how people like you enjoy sitting in one spot holding M1 down. Is shooting and moving too hard for you? I know some turret games that you would like.

The game should be a mix of camping and running. I shouldn't have to challenge myself, the very definition of a video game is to be challenged by it.

don't ever reference CoD zombies in regards to killing floor. If you don't like camping then kite. if you don't want other players to be able to camp go play your ****ty cod zombies, this is killing floor and players are free to play the way they like. nobody is stopping you from pursuing your play style except for yourself.

I shouldn't have to challenge myself, the very definition of a video game is to be challenged by it.

LOL, okay then you are literally asking the game developers to cater to you without putting forth any effort into addressing the issues you are having. please be more entitled, you're probably going to stop playing this game before it gets out of early access anyways.

and no i don't have a problem moving and shooting, killing floor isn't the only game i play, i have no doubt in my mind that i would outperform you in CSGO, or another PVP first person shooter.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

i have no doubt in my mind that i would outperform you in CSGO, or another PVP first person shooter.

Quake 1v1 gogogogo.


My dosh is on Amber

 

[tibits]

Camping doesn't have to mean everyone in a room with only 1 entrance. If that is what it means for you, I suggest learning how2camp and how2KF.

imo change that to '1 or 2 entrances' and that is what camping pretty much is.
camping in video games is sitting in one place and not having to move much and waiting for enemies to come through.. like west london under the bridge is much like camping.

i'm very against being able to camp, i thought it was the most boring part of kf1, but i am very pro defensive gameplay.
similarly i am very anti-kiting and think that zed teleporting is a good solution and i think zeds should be faster, but i think that also designing gameplay for run and gun situations where the zeds are unpredictably coming from everywhere you run to is good.

for example the eifel tower area on burning paris and many other good defensive areas i think is great gameplay where players have a defensive position that they have to move around and fight off enemies spawning from all directions.

but camping (like biotics lab spawn hallway on kf1) is not a defensive experience, it feels like a broken exploit that is mind numbingly boring. it doesn't feel like a experience of defending a defensive location, it feels like exploiting bad AI and bad map design.

don't ever reference CoD zombies in regards to killing floor. If you don't like camping then kite. if you don't want other players to be able to camp go play your ****ty cod zombies, this is killing floor and players are free to play the way they like. nobody is stopping you from pursuing your play style except for yourself.

cod zombies doesn't have 'camping'? i haven't played cod series in over 10 years but you make cod zombies sound pretty good.
i was always put off of trying it because it seemed to be just camping with very slow paced and dull gameplay where you just hold a small defensive area and use wooden planks to board up windows and doors and stuff.

 

[silverlighted]

cod zombies doesn't have 'camping'? i haven't played cod series in over 10 years but you make cod zombies sound pretty good.
i was always put off of trying it because it seemed to be just camping with very slow paced and dull gameplay where you just hold a small defensive area and use wooden planks to board up windows and doors and stuff.

I think it depended on the game and the map? I remember when my friend was showing me endgame for this one level in World at War (?), it was basically a biotics style shooting gallery.

But when I played Black Ops, the kino der toten map, after the slow paced waves from 1-5 (I think? It's been a while), it got faster paced, and by the time you get to like waves 20+, I was kiting around in circles around the map the whole time because the zombies are fast as hell.

(But then they become bullet sponges, and I got bored, because you had to rely on activating traps to deal any real damage to them.)

 

[UserSD]

Look at the game, and look at what they've done to it. The finite welding, breakable lights...

They never wanted to make the game about kiting. They wanted to make the core gameplay in KF more mobile.

They now want you to hole up in a spot, but making sure that same spot isn't viable for the entire game. This forces you to switch spots, switch tactics, and move while still not running around like a headless chicken decapping clots for half an hour.

They're trying to make camping not be so much about holding a single advantageous spot, but about picking and managing different spots. Allows the game to keep the core gameplay, while making it more dynamic.

It's basically what Tibits was talking about, a dynamic defensive gameplay seems pretty much what they're going for right now. That's great, it eliminates both bull**** extremes of kiting and camping a door, while keeping a modicum of mobility and defense, just enough of a hybrid to be much more interesting.