Camp spots has to go
- Thread starter doomleika
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Ew? trying to force kiting, why? Kiting was one of the leading causes of me calling it a night with my friends in KF1. In KF1 kiting and camping were both legitimate strategies. I don't understand this whole kill one method of playing just because I personally don't like it line of thought.
Yea I don't get it either. Right now both camping and kiting are harder then they were in kf1 but they still both work completely fine. It seems like a select few people are unwilling to adapt to the changes.
The thing is I don't want to promote perpetual kiting around the map, and the idea behind the destructible lights isn't trying to promote that either. The hope is to force a spot change about once every round or two. In the last rounds, one might have to change the room mid-way through the round after nading the hell out of a few fp's. But moving around all game? Nah, that's not what I want. It's really just meant to force players to experience and utilize different parts of the map. To me it's a waste of resources to have a whole map when you're only using one area 95% of the entire game. Maybe people will start theorycrafting about which rooms are better, therefor which ones to save till the end.. things like that. That adds more strategy imo.
Interesting idea! Perhaps the zed will still chase you indoors, but it will have to land, and will then be less deadly. I highly doubt they'll make it, and it would probably require a lot of complicated animation to make them look and work right. But it's a cool thought imho
I am personally not changing camping spots, though completely killing it yes, like some people suggested.
what are you even on about? kiting is the epitome of what you defined above. Kiting is the absolute easiest way to win, hands down. Camping in a spot with 1 entrance is the second easiest way to win. in KF2, the amount of 1 way camp spots is minimal. I challenge you to hold on Hospital horrors at spawn with 6 players on HoE in the first game, or spawn on waterworks, or biohazard. You guys sound like you're a bunch of KF experts who have never wiped, yet im very much doubting that you are consistently beating HoE in KF2 to the point that it has become boring.
I don't think anything should be done about camping because it is forcing the player towards a particular play style which is silly honestly. why does it bother you if pubs love camping the easy spot? if you are truly an experienced player and are looking to challenge yourself, then you will find a way to do it without changing the core gameplay mechanics for every single player.
If you don't like camping one spot throughout the game, then move camp spots. If you can't do it with pubs, make some friends, there are no shortage of players for KF2 so no trouble there. Don't force others to play a certain way because you think the game is "too easy", chances are you are over-exaggerating your abilities.
I'm not against camping, but I feel the game could be better with some more depth. If that can be added while people camp, that's great. But right now the best way to do that seems to be having situations when it's best to run and best to camp.
Another suggestion just came to me. What if between waves, certain parts of the map got locked up? It would require the utilization of the whole map for players. People may still camp but at least they have to think on their feet.
This game is too easy and the ZEDs lack the abilities to force people out of their little spots.
Black Ops Zombies you couldnt camp for more than 10 seconds past wave 15
Black Ops Zombies you couldnt camp for more than 10 seconds past wave 15
Go play Sniper if you love camping so much. Some of us play video games because we like the idea of being an action hero. I don't know how people like you enjoy sitting in one spot holding M1 down. Is shooting and moving too hard for you? I know some turret games that you would like.
The game should be a mix of camping and running. I shouldn't have to challenge myself, the very definition of a video game is to be challenged by it.
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You want to be challenged? KF1, Hospo lobby M14 Sharp. You hold a side on your own and tell me again how camping is 2ez and boring.
Now I don't mind kiting, but I don't want the senseless kiting that comes with CoD Zombies or KF1 Zerking. Don't tell me that you find running around a map in circles with a trail of Zombies running behind you (which you can pick off at your leisure) more difficult than holding a small spot with 3-4 entrances on HoE.
Camping doesn't have to mean everyone in a room with only 1 entrance. If that is what it means for you, I suggest learning how2camp and how2KF. That also goes for you CrashFu. You have said before that your tried HoE once or twice, and from your description it was clear that you were playing with baddies who carried you through. Your opinions are more biased than the "guys with 2k hours who feel content to sit in one spot and press M1".
Crawler needs to have an evolved version with wings that can come form the sky thus pushing players out of wide open spaces if they stay to long.
Dude, you completely missed what Amber was saying.
They were arguing against the idea that camping is automatically EZ mode, because Crash was saying "Mindless camping and easy victories are something that should only be possible on the lowest difficulty not something people require you to do with them on higher difficulties because they don't have the skill or courage to win without being as cheap as possible."
People generally hold the opinion that kiting is easier than camping. I personally always thought it was the opposite, but I didn't play KF1 at the harder difficulties that much.
lol, calm down dude.
Being mainly a KF1 HOE player. I always found kiting much easier on KF1 and the general fall back tactic, especially when the team was bad. It put me to sleep though as it was very easy but took a very long time. This is especially true because of how you can abuse the spawn cap.
I don't call camping cheap and boring because I'm some kind of untouchable god, I'm speaking from experiences in KF1.
Every time I joined servers running difficulties above hard, it was an absolute snooze-fest. On a team of six it only took four people to hold back the zeds so effectively that none ever made it INTO the room, and one of those people was a Sharpshooter who literally did nothing unless a FP showed up.
So that's one player who got to shoot at ~3 zeds per wave, a berzerker whose entire job was to stay crouched and hold M1 in the doorway, a medic whose entire job was just to sit there and heal the 'zerker, and maybe one commando or support firing over the 'zerker's shoulder or shooing away the occasional slippery crawler or stalker.
That's not an action-packed shooter. That's not co-op horror survival or anything else Killing Floor is supposed to be. That's the world's most easy and tedious Tower Defense.
But that was KF1 and I'm really starting to think this is already much less of a problem in KF2 (ESPECIALLY above Normal). All of the camp-able rooms have some vents or such for zeds to sneak in through. Welding up some doors can make a room temporarily easy to hold.. but sometimes only long enough that everyone can get healed back up before things get too hairy again. Stalkers are harder to see (without commando help) and sneakier than ever, and FPs and Scrakes can't be taken down so easily that they won't wreck a secure formation and cause serious chaos (at least not until we get some specific other perks available)
Even when we set out to hold down a secure spot, it's pretty often that we have to migrate somewhere else in the middle of a wave anyhow.. Or we'll start out on the move and in order to catch our breath we'll have to slam a door in some zeds' faces and hole up somewhere (because they aren't as slow and shambly as they used to be!)
I don't know yet how people are playing KF2 in Suicidal and HoE but if Hard is any indication, the balance of camping and mobility is actually pretty good right now.
(Trying to 100% kite the zeds almost never ends well for a team, on the other hand)
Every time I joined servers running difficulties above hard, it was an absolute snooze-fest. On a team of six it only took four people to hold back the zeds so effectively that none ever made it INTO the room, and one of those people was a Sharpshooter who literally did nothing unless a FP showed up.
So that's one player who got to shoot at ~3 zeds per wave, a berzerker whose entire job was to stay crouched and hold M1 in the doorway, a medic whose entire job was just to sit there and heal the 'zerker, and maybe one commando or support firing over the 'zerker's shoulder or shooing away the occasional slippery crawler or stalker.
That's not an action-packed shooter. That's not co-op horror survival or anything else Killing Floor is supposed to be. That's the world's most easy and tedious Tower Defense.
But that was KF1 and I'm really starting to think this is already much less of a problem in KF2 (ESPECIALLY above Normal). All of the camp-able rooms have some vents or such for zeds to sneak in through. Welding up some doors can make a room temporarily easy to hold.. but sometimes only long enough that everyone can get healed back up before things get too hairy again. Stalkers are harder to see (without commando help) and sneakier than ever, and FPs and Scrakes can't be taken down so easily that they won't wreck a secure formation and cause serious chaos (at least not until we get some specific other perks available)
Even when we set out to hold down a secure spot, it's pretty often that we have to migrate somewhere else in the middle of a wave anyhow.. Or we'll start out on the move and in order to catch our breath we'll have to slam a door in some zeds' faces and hole up somewhere (because they aren't as slow and shambly as they used to be!)
I don't know yet how people are playing KF2 in Suicidal and HoE but if Hard is any indication, the balance of camping and mobility is actually pretty good right now.
(Trying to 100% kite the zeds almost never ends well for a team, on the other hand)
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Something interesting that I just now realized, is that Hans does a GREAT job at forcing the kind of movement the OP is talking about. Hans uses crowd control effects which leave you with no choice but to keep moving. While it doesn't always result in you moving from room to room, the overall experience is still more dynamic than crouching in a corner and clicking. The big zeds don't really accomplish this because it's typically safer to try to kill them right away than to run around, because of how easy it is to get sandwhiched by zeds. Sirens are not threatening enough to warrant moving around. I still think a large, tanky, slow zed is needed to help with this. It would take too much firepower to kill right away, and you can't afford to let it get close to you, so you'd have to move to another room or at the very least move around a bit while being weary of your surroundings so it doesn't creep up on you. Also, it wouldn't hurt if some kind of zed had an ability like Hans' poison grenades which make a certain area dangerous for a few moments. Some sort of husk variant might fit this role nicely.
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The way I see it, camping is fine. I mean, it's just a natural result of the type of game KF is.
And considering how long KF1 lasted with how many players playing it, I'd say most people are perfectly OK with how it played.
It's fine what tripwire is doing right now, which is try to make it harder to hole up in one spot for a wave, causing more chaos and if something goes wrong then you're forced to be on your toes, but I'd stop playing the game if they made it so it'd be impossible, because I simply don't enjoy kiting at all, especially not with how the game now re-spawns zombies infront of you if you start running away.
If i feel like running around then I play something like L4d, with actual level progression. I don't think the map design of KF games is fit for running in circles for an hour.
And considering how long KF1 lasted with how many players playing it, I'd say most people are perfectly OK with how it played.
It's fine what tripwire is doing right now, which is try to make it harder to hole up in one spot for a wave, causing more chaos and if something goes wrong then you're forced to be on your toes, but I'd stop playing the game if they made it so it'd be impossible, because I simply don't enjoy kiting at all, especially not with how the game now re-spawns zombies infront of you if you start running away.
If i feel like running around then I play something like L4d, with actual level progression. I don't think the map design of KF games is fit for running in circles for an hour.
As a camper in KF1 all the way up to HoE (I loathe kiting) I agree that 1-way spots are simply too easy and no sane map should have them unless it's literally inside a broom closet with no wiggle room at all.
However holding a 2-way spot actually requires team coordination. If you have that, it seems easy but that's not the game or maps fault, everything seems easy when you get six people working together and doing what they should be doing. A good map design to emulate in regards to camping would be Hospital Horrors, that map is awesome. In KF2 you could also incorporate the destructible lighting to force players to only use a certain spot x times and have to move around as well.
However holding a 2-way spot actually requires team coordination. If you have that, it seems easy but that's not the game or maps fault, everything seems easy when you get six people working together and doing what they should be doing. A good map design to emulate in regards to camping would be Hospital Horrors, that map is awesome. In KF2 you could also incorporate the destructible lighting to force players to only use a certain spot x times and have to move around as well.
As I said, your experience of higher difficulties is skewed because you were playing with baddies
Yup. Camping can really break this game. Unfortunately it only takes so long until players find the camping spots with the fewest zed attacking spots, and if those spots are 1-2 (due to faulty map design), then the game automatically becomes a snoozefest.
Outpost, camping in front of shooting range. 95% of zeds attack from one position only. ZZZZZZZZ.
Outpost, camping in front of shooting range. 95% of zeds attack from one position only. ZZZZZZZZ.