Bolt Action Balance

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Sah.

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 6, 2009
230
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In RO: OST, the Bolt Action was a finely balanced weapon. A skilled player could take out many enemies at range, and at close range, hip shoot, where a newer player would have no chance. This is not the same skill ceiling as present in an assault, or a semi auto weapon, where the higher damage per second, clip size, and fire rate makes it easier to use. In RO2 however, that balance has been completely disrupted, and the bolt action is in my opinion as a long term bolt player, pretty much worthless.

Hip shooting in RO2 is no where near as reliabale as it was in RO OST, in OST you could sprint to centre your aim, then you would have a reliable platform to shoot a hipshot from, in RO2 it's much less reliable, as there is no sprint gun centering. This means that, up close, a rifleman has very little chance against a man armed with a more powerful gun, which, in competetive games, is frankly ridiculous. The more skilled player should win the fight, not the one with the bigger gun.

Rebandaging - with the introduction of the bandaging mechanic, bolts take another hit, as you must now in many cases hit your opponent several times to kill them, rebolting and calculating your shot inbetween each hit, giving them ample time to bandage and return fire with their fully or semi automatic weapons.

The huge amount of, and stability of, assault weapons and semi autos is another massive massive blow to the bolt's balance in RO2. In RO OST the ppsh mp40 stg44 etc, if you auto fired, would ceiling in a matter of seconds, meaning that you could not reliably 'run and gun' at large distances. This, i am sad to say in RO2 is no longer the case, which i think everyone will agree (with the exception of the AVT, which was not in OST), the assault weapons in RO2 are much easier to shoot. This, combined with the hipshooting debuff, just makes it rather insanely hard to play a bolt at all effectively in any competetive or public arena when a player could simply use a semi auto and have a very similar accuracy, damage, and a much much higher fire rate.

The close nature of the maps, combined with the large hipshooting nerf, further limits the bolt .. as many of the objectives are indoors, where hipshooting is paramount, staying on cap and fighting off an enemy is just impossible. Bayonetting an enemy works fine in the back or against a newer player on a public server, but try doing that against an experienced RO OST assault player and it will not have a chance of success.

I hope the gun is buffed at some point, either by way of increasing the reliability of hip shooting, increasing the recoil on the assault and semi (which i doubt will happen), or some other fix, but, as it stands the bolt is just a deadweight in any clan game, and something that you should avoid picking in public games.

Thanks, Sah.
 

CheckYour6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 20, 2011
36
48
0
Bolt-action rifles are only hard to use to newbs. For pro's it's always about the first shot

Bolt-action rifles in RO2 are easy2use and OP laser beams. You can sit far away from combat and easily pick people off. They're much better all-around weapons to use than sub-machine guns which are only really good indoors.

The Mkb42 its own league of course, but at over 50 meters, it's becoming less effective than a bolt-action rifle.
 
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Echo Black

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 14, 2011
294
340
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Bolts are still serviceable and technically as lethal (or a bit more, with the low sway) as they were in ROOST, yet it'd be very hard for anyone that made the ROOST->RO2 switch to deny the lowered recoils on all weapons greatly diminish their usefulness. I don't think the hipfire accuracies have much to do with it, it's just that recoil reductions benefit SMGs and the semi-autos much more than they benefit bolts (do they even benefit them?).

---
 

AntiCitizenJuan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
91
56
0
Bolt-action rifles are only hard to use to newbs. For pro's it's always about the first shot

Bolt-action rifles in RO2 are easy2use and OP laser beams. You can sit far away from combat and easily pick people off. They're much better all-around weapons to use than sub-machine guns which are only really good indoors.

The Mkb42 its own league of course, but at over 50 meters, it's becoming less effective than a bolt-action rifle.
someone doesnt actually play the game LOL
 

CheckYour6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 20, 2011
36
48
0
someone doesnt actually play the game LOL
Not nice. To me it's easier to kill someone with a single shot from a medium distance than spraying/single shooting half a mag from a SMG's in order to score a kill and all while having to deal with recoil, not to mention giving away my position with every shot or burst.
 

Sah.

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 6, 2009
230
143
0
Bolt-action rifles are only hard to use to newbs. For pro's it's always about the first shot

Bolt-action rifles in RO2 are easy2use and OP laser beams. You can sit far away from combat and easily pick people off. They're much better all-around weapons to use than sub-machine guns which are only really good indoors.

The Mkb42 its own league of course, but at over 50 meters, it's becoming less effective than a bolt-action rifle.

im not talking about at range. Over 20, 30 metres anyone can make the shot with a bolt, that's what it's designed for. I'm talking within assault range, they are absurdly useless, wheras in RO OST, especially competetive gaming against other skilled players, you could at least defend yourself. Pardon the pun but against good players with good weapons, the bayo just doesn't cut it.
 

CheckYour6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 20, 2011
36
48
0
im not talking about at range. Over 20, 30 metres anyone can make the shot with a bolt, that's what it's designed for. I'm talking within assault range, they are absurdly useless, wheras in RO OST, especially competetive gaming against other skilled players, you could at least defend yourself. Pardon the pun but against good players with good weapons, the bayo just doesn't cut it.
Somebody needs to learn how to use cover to his advanatage better. Or is it your aim? Because yeasterday I was on a rampage inside the GrainElevator building using a bolt-action rifle. Note that submachine guns usually don't kill with their first hit, not even at point blank. Bolt-action rifles do.
 

Shadrach

Grizzled Veteran
May 2, 2006
2,688
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Elitist Prick Ski Lodge
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. As I play solely with bolts these days, to learn the game proper, I find a with what would in RO1 be single-shot kills now have to be done twice. Maybe that's more realistic though, with hitting someone in the leg or the arm, but certainly you would not insta-bandage a shot to to torso, you would be incapacitated, end of story.

As to the SMGs, the time to Ironsight after sprint for some of them is just ridiculous, I've often hipshot a SMG-guy only to have him instantly bring his gun up and kill me, from 5-10 meters. The reduced predictability of the hipshot I'm fine with though, more realistic than in RO1, where an experienced player could hipshoot and hit every time.

When it comes to close quarters I do not agree that the most experienced would win in a 1 to 1 situation; the one firing the most amount of bullets in the shortest time will *always* win these, unless the rifleman is *lucky*. To make the game more enjoyable for riflemen, TWI needs to do real measures to reduce the number of SMGs on maps - and not just the Mkb - and reduce their accuracy, especially the mp40 I think is way too accurate at long range now.
 
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Reactions: Sah.

Ermac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2007
591
106
0
In RO: OST, the Bolt Action was a finely balanced weapon. A skilled player could take out many enemies at range, and at close range, hip shoot, where a newer player would have no chance. This is not the same skill ceiling as present in an assault, or a semi auto weapon, where the higher damage per second, clip size, and fire rate makes it easier to use. In RO2 however, that balance has been completely disrupted, and the bolt action is in my opinion as a long term bolt player, pretty much worthless.

Hip shooting in RO2 is no where near as reliabale as it was in RO OST, in OST you could sprint to centre your aim, then you would have a reliable platform to shoot a hipshot from, in RO2 it's much less reliable, as there is no sprint gun centering. This means that, up close, a rifleman has very little chance against a man armed with a more powerful gun, which, in competetive games, is frankly ridiculous. The more skilled player should win the fight, not the one with the bigger gun.

Rebandaging - with the introduction of the bandaging mechanic, bolts take another hit, as you must now in many cases hit your opponent several times to kill them, rebolting and calculating your shot inbetween each hit, giving them ample time to bandage and return fire with their fully or semi automatic weapons.

The huge amount of, and stability of, assault weapons and semi autos is another massive massive blow to the bolt's balance in RO2. In RO OST the ppsh mp40 stg44 etc, if you auto fired, would ceiling in a matter of seconds, meaning that you could not reliably 'run and gun' at large distances. This, i am sad to say in RO2 is no longer the case, which i think everyone will agree (with the exception of the AVT, which was not in OST), the assault weapons in RO2 are much easier to shoot. This, combined with the hipshooting debuff, just makes it rather insanely hard to play a bolt at all effectively in any competetive or public arena when a player could simply use a semi auto and have a very similar accuracy, damage, and a much much higher fire rate.

The close nature of the maps, combined with the large hipshooting nerf, further limits the bolt .. as many of the objectives are indoors, where hipshooting is paramount, staying on cap and fighting off an enemy is just impossible. Bayonetting an enemy works fine in the back or against a newer player on a public server, but try doing that against an experienced RO OST assault player and it will not have a chance of success.

I hope the gun is buffed at some point, either by way of increasing the reliability of hip shooting, increasing the recoil on the assault and semi (which i doubt will happen), or some other fix, but, as it stands the bolt is just a deadweight in any clan game, and something that you should avoid picking in public games.

Thanks, Sah.
Hip firing inaccurate? As it should be. Hip firing a bolt action is just stupid. I don't know why any soldier would do it in real life, unless they were got off guard. You want balance, but I prefer realism in regards to weapons. The devs lowered the SMG recoil for realism.
 

Sah.

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 6, 2009
230
143
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Hip firing inaccurate? As it should be. Hip firing a bolt action is just stupid. I don't know why any soldier would do it in real life, unless they were got off guard. You want balance, but I prefer realism in regards to weapons. The devs lowered the SMG recoil for realism.

if they're striving for greater realism why then are they also trying to promote competetive play ! removing skill features whilst also saying we want to attract more skilled gamers to the game is absurd !
 

Cyper

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 25, 2011
1,290
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Sweden
I think the ability to throw a hipshot is accurate enough as it is. I don't like the idea of people running around blasting accurate hipshots.
 

Ermac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2007
591
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if they're striving for greater realism why then are they also trying to promote competetive play ! removing skill features whilst also saying we want to attract more skilled gamers to the game is absurd !
At least for weapons this time around they strived for more realism. Can't say about the other features of the game.
 

rpxy24

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
141
88
0
No auto-center after sprint is actually better, as it was akin to quickscoping in a way.

Now, and i almost exclusively play rifleman, there is a real hip firing challenge & no "let's sprint so my weapon automatically centers when i slow down".

Some would point how unrealistic it is.. i'll let them do so, my point is that it's dumbed down gameplay, i don't want my weapon to automatically point somewhere i never told it to point. Ever. It's assisted gameplay.
Kind of like having a key to do a 180 degree turn... Where your weapon point is, as it must, solely dependent on your mouse.

I like to think that i don't need assistance & i don't want it anyway.

Play a few apartments rounds with "practice my rifle hipfiring" in mind. After 20 minutes or so i got pretty deadly, demolishing MKB42s indoor.
 

FBOTheLiuetenant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
640
104
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www.righttorule.com
A. I dont agree that rifles a unbalanced

B. Get a chance to play with a high level bolt-action it is a world of difference.

Rifles can be challenging to hip-fire or use in CQC, but that doesn't mean they are unreliable or useless. For me there was little difference hip-firing in RO2 vs ROOST. If anything it only took me a day or two to get used to it. That doesn't mean a bolt-action will be as easy to hip-fire as an SMG or MG-34, but if you go into CQC situations expecting the rifle to perform as well as automatic weapons you are only setting yourself up for disapointment. As I pointed out earlier, higher level bolt-actions reload and cycle so quickly that I can easily take out players in CQC, the rifles truely become a bad-*** weapon once you get to level 40 or so.
 

theta123

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 11, 2011
463
215
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Sorry Sah but your post does not makes sense. A soldier with a SMG was simply in a advantage against a bolt action rifle at short range. A bolt action rifler HAD to aim in wich it took time, what a SMG gunner did not needed


I am a bolt action riflemen myself. But the bolt action rifle has to have an disadvantage

But yeah, what use is it sometimes when MP40 players pick you off at ridiculous distances
 
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Nervous_Energy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 21, 2011
56
35
0
Nottingham (UK)
Interesting.

ATM i am only using SMGs. The recoil on them is crazy, its all about controlled fire. Taking a bolt action rifle into close quarters you deserve to die. At medium range the SMG is a viable option but only with very controlled bursts, longer range well its possible but you need the time or the hidden advantage to use it.

I would go as far to say it balanced (apart from that thing everyone moans about atm, which i still havnt got round to playing with mkv i think)
 

Marxman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 25, 2011
114
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Placing mines in your ammo box
As a rifleman myself, I don't agree with anything you said. I play exclusively with the K98, and I have no trouble killing people in one hit, nor do I have problems with SMGs or assault rifles.

Secondly, why are you hipshooting a bolt? Its a terrible idea, and it really should be crap. If you have to use hipfire you're close enough to use the bayonet. Melee is your friend. I honestly think you just aren't good enough with the rifles.
 

StraitJacket

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 27, 2011
14
42
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realism...

realism...

i completely disagree, i personally ONLY use rifleman class for the time being and even as an RO:OST veteran as you say you are, i kick *** with the bolt action.
i think as RO is famous or perhaps infamous for, it just takes a lot of practice. more or less depending on how quickly you can learn it and how hard you try.

as far as bolt action rifles Vs. SMGs and semi-autos, you are wrong. RO is a game of realism, and realistically, the more skilled person does not necessarily always win. it IS about the gun. SMG's were designed with close combat in mind. and as far as them being OP, they did it because they test fired the weapons and found that they set the recoil unnaturally high in ROOST. but still, if you cant take out an SMG from medium to long range with a bolt action, the problem is not with the guns or game, its with you.

for bandaging, while they can be a bit of a nuisance, this complaint is completely contradictory to what you say about SMGs. rifles have larger calibers and are almost always 1 hit kills, if not bleedouts, while SMG's have a nasty tendancy to hit a guy 3 or 4 times even and not kill him. this is just part of the balance my friend.