Blacklist/Greylist

[vealck]

Since greylist exist, I cannot fathom why on earth blacklist is still needed anyway? (I know, there is no such a thing as blacklist, really, it's just the default state of things for non-verified content)

If greylisted mods/maps prevent you from levelling, the goal is achieved. There is no point in punishing players by perk removal... right?
I say, the state described as 'greylisted' should be the default for any custom content.

If there is some logical argument behind keeping some content without the access for perks, please tell me.

 

[Benjamin]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The greylist is there to allow you to use perks while running authorized mutators.

 

[Entangler]

Greylisting inhibits perk progression via the normal means, but doesn't actively prevent it from happening - because it can't.

In a greylisted environment, the Steam connection needed to read and write stats and Achievements is available, but the game chooses not to write anything to it. An unscrupulous mutator could choose differently if given the chance, because, for some reason, that connection cannot be designated read-only. Therefore, if any non-listed mutators are running, the Steam connection is not provided at all.

 

[vealck]

Greylisting inhibits perk progression via the normal means, but doesn't actively prevent it from happening - because it can't.

In a greylisted environment, the Steam connection needed to read and write stats and Achievements is available, but the game chooses not to write anything to it. An unscrupulous mutator could choose differently if given the chance, because, for some reason, that connection cannot be designated read-only. Therefore, if any non-listed mutators are running, the Steam connection is not provided at all.

So you say, greylist makes the game more prone to cheaters and the like?

I don't quite understand why it is constructed this way, then. The program could just check perk level once, at player entry, and for the rest of match it could base on the fixed perk levels, without any opportunity to send levelling info to steam servers.

 

[zYnthetic]

There is no blacklist. Maintaining such a thing would be impossible.

 

[C_Gibby]

You mean that every bit of custom content that gets made is put to the grelyist automatically so perks aren't totally disabled so nobody has to go through a waiting period to get it greylisted? Sounds good to me. :IS2:

 

[Benjamin]

You mean that every bit of custom content that gets made is put to the grelyist automatically so perks aren't totally disabled so nobody has to go through a waiting period to get it greylisted? Sounds good to me. :IS2:

What's the point of having a greylist if everything (including malicious content) is automatically put on it?

 

[C_Gibby]

What's the point of having a greylist if everything (including malicious content) is automatically put on it?

Because even if it is malicious content, it still won't affect perks at all, yet we'd still have our current levels and people aren't totally deterred from said content. Unless you mean malicious content as in viruses and not god-mode mutators, then well, I never thought about that one.

 

[vealck]

There is no blacklist. Maintaining such a thing would be impossible.

Even bothered to read the first sentence of my first post?

You mean that every bit of custom content that gets made is put to the grelyist automatically so perks aren't totally disabled so nobody has to go through a waiting period to get it greylisted?

Exactly.

 

[masa-]

Had to read Entangler's post another time after reading the thread, to get what he was really saying.

So, if i understood correctly, if the mutator is not greylisted, the Steam connection is not provided at all, and thus perks are unavailable. The Steam connection can not be read-only, so to make the connection available, the game and the mutator must be trusted and thus at least greylisted. Because the mutator itself can decide whether to write anything like perk progression.

And that is why the Steam connection can not be made available for all mutators, because it can not be read-only.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Offtopic: Do all the posts go through moderation queue? Mine seem to appear several hours later from the posting moment, sometimes even like a day later. Kinda cumbersome to try and reply to someone quickly..

 

[timur]

also, wouldn't that screw with custom-perk mutators quite a bit?

 

[Benjamin]

Because even if it is malicious content, it still won't affect perks at all, yet we'd still have our current levels and people aren't totally deterred from said content. Unless you mean malicious content as in viruses and not god-mode mutators, then well, I never thought about that one.

But any mutator that can access the perks can modify them how it pleases, since there's no read-only mode that can be used. That's why mutators have to be checked by TWI before they are put on the greylist.

 

[zYnthetic]

Even bothered to read the first sentence of my first post?

This part?

...I cannot fathom why on earth blacklist is still needed anyway?

Again, there is no blacklist. If you understand that and why if such a thing existed it would be completely ineffective I'm not sure why it's even being mentioned other than to cause confusion on the subject.

 

[starxpilot]

Not sure if I even heard of such a thing exsiting but Greylisted items are those deemed that make the game far too easy/change it too far to be recognizable, etc, and thus do not allow perk leveing or hindering.

If you used Greylisted lets say, weapons to level up, upon leaving the server any experience gotten using the greylisted and ONLY the greylisted, are reset to their previous game match.

That's as far as I know.

As for things not-vertified, maybe because the Devs don't have the time needed to go through the loads of apps and muts around? Plus majority are a WIP and will probably never be fully finished, thus hard to keep updated.

I think its good the way it is, the majority of the community seems to think so, not sure why you don't.

 

[vealck]

This part?

No. This part:

(I know, there is no such a thing as blacklist, really, it's just the default state of things for non-verified content)

Let's go through it again, shall we.

As of now, any custom content (mutator/map) has disabled perk system by default. They are colloquially described as blacklisted, as opposed to whitelisted ones.

And since introduction of what is called a greylisted state, when perks are on, but not levelling - I can't see why that didn't become a default state for any custom content from now on.

Entangler suggests the greylisted state is prone to exploits, as it doesn't cut off the steam servers completely. The question stands: is it true, and why the game engine couldn't just contact servers once to see what level your perks are, and just set them on fixed values for entire match while using not-whitelisted content.

 

[Gartley]

Unless one of the TWI injects at this point we can only asume that they thought about that but for whatever reason they opted for the current setup where by defult a mutator is not on either list and has to be submitted for moderation before getting on either the grey or white lists.

It works, if you have a mut you want to see on the grey list just submit it or get the creator to submit it and I'm sure it will go through soon enough if deemed suitable.

 

[Benjamin]

They are colloquially described as blacklisted, as opposed to whitelisted ones.

No, no, no. Don't refer to un-authorized content as 'blacklisted', it implies that TWI actively block said content. Anyway, re-read what I wrote. A while back TWI explained that there's no simple way around this, so I don't think we'll be seeing any changes to the system any time soon.

 

[zYnthetic]

No

Consider the topic properly sensationalized then since you keep using it.


Ok, here we go.

What does the Greylist mean to you if you're a player?
Nothing. Consider anything on the Greylist the same as anything not on the Whitelist. If you're concerned about leveling perks the only thing that should matter is whether or not something is on the Whitelist. The Greylist is irrelevant.

Why does it exist then?
The Greylist is a tool that gives mods that my not be balanced well in respect to base game and perk progression the ability to benefit from perk access without causing modifications. It's a mod tool.

Well that's stupid.
Not really, unless you happen to know for a fact that no mods will ever be made that could possibly benefit from the player's own perk access. If you are a modder and think it's silly and you'll never use it, that's fine. There's no rulebook that says you have to use every tool in the bag but they are there for when you need them.


Unless you're a modder and the Greylist has somehow become an unavoidable obstacle in the progression of your work, however unlikely that is, it shouldn't even be an issue. If you're a player concerned about leveling perks it shouldn't matter either, because it's not the whitelist. The Greylist is a mod tool as mods will benefit from it directly. Players in turn will only inherit benefits through the mod, like personalized abilities or such.

 

[[UIT] Akame]

Regardless of the possibility of making the greylist read global perks and store them before loading mods, it is rather moot because the injection hack isn't prevented. Though it isn't prevented while using official content anyway.

 

[King Sumo]

So, if i understood correctly, if the mutator is not greylisted, the Steam connection is not provided at all, and thus perks are unavailable. The Steam connection can not be read-only, so to make the connection available, the game and the mutator must be trusted and thus at least greylisted. Because the mutator itself can decide whether to write anything like perk progression.
And that is why the Steam connection can not be made available for all mutators, because it can not be read-only.

So this sounds a design problem and must be fixed by TWI.

Is taking months to get a mutator greylisted... This is anoying. What about the future? Years to get the mutator in the greylist? Probably not (i.e. SW lifecycle/end of support - you know... were they get revenue for the support?).

As for things not-vertified, maybe because the Devs don't have the time needed to go through the loads of apps and muts around? Plus majority are a WIP and will probably never be fully finished, thus hard to keep updated.

another good reason to remove the greylst thing

Sry for bumping this thread...