Big servers are a BIG mistake

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

gast

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 26, 2007
11
0
0
50 men and only 15 minutes time. it leads to a RUSH game instead of using tacticts.
 

Lionel-RIchie

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 29, 2006
701
8
0
36
TN, US
50 men and only 15 minutes time. it leads to a RUSH game instead of using tacticts.

I don't see why you say that. I also don't see why everyone is claiming that this game was "super mega ultra tactical" before 50 player servers came out. I remember countless times hearing everyone shout "JUST GET IN THE CAPZONE, GET IN THERE!" as the epitome of tactics.
 

Reservoir Dog

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2007
312
0
0
I positive idea came to my mind.

Bigger player count attracts more people.
More people might make more clans.
Not everyone can afford to spend on a 50 player server... so It might spawn some new good active 26 to 32 player clan servers :D

Not sure the current policies on the 50 player servers but before a lot of servers didn't allow clan recruiting. I do see potential with the idea of allowing clan recruiting on the 50s, if the admins agreed. They might even allow a clan night so players could be recruited. This would help populate some of the 32s for practices and clan battles and open up more room on the 50s during peak hours. Clan night might be on an evening/time that the server is statistically slow. I think you have a good idea but its up to the server admins and clans to work it out.
 

Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
I love the large servers. 50 players makes the games much more intense on most of the maps. But some maps it just sucks like 50 players on lyeskrovy or however thats spelled. that can really suck. But on the other hand 50 players on the tank maps or combined arms maps makes them a whole lot more fun. Forcing people to team tank 90% of the time is just great. Just last night i had a stubborn solo tanker go from get out of my tank when i jumped into a tank with him at spawn to him following me to the tanks at spawn every time. Then maps like barashaka and leningrad are just wonderful with 50 players. but kaukasus is just horrid with 50. just a pure slaughter.

I personaly have absolutely no lag at all on the 50 player servers. No framerate problems or network problems or anything.

I think in the end it comes down to the admins to decide what maps should be played with that many players. Im still waiting for a chance to play orel with 50.

Large servers are a wonderful addition to the game. But if you dont like it theres still plenty of 32 player and smaller servers out there.
 

Madeyes

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 17, 2006
379
0
0
52
Cyprus but from UK
www.divingduo.co.uk
Seems like we have a splt decision on the Large servers. I admit i do like the big maps with 50 players on if i don't lag. And if the new maps do come out & support these servers then it may offer more to players. I may be a grumpy old man complaining about change but at the mo i just don't like it. To top it all off my favourite serves are all 50 servers now :mad:.
And please TW don't think i'm knocking you when i say i think you made a mistake because i'm not. I love your work & very much appreciate what you do for the game & the community. I guess i'll just have to see how it all pans out in the next few months and await """MANTLING!!!!!!""" (hint hint) :D
 

Dumba [cro]

Active member
I don't think making 50 player servers possible is a mistake in itself, it's actually a great thing for the developers to do, however, those running them should really work towards cleaning up the maplist to only play those maps which make sense with large population (of course, it'd be hard for everyone to agree which maps actually do :) ), notching max player count down a bit 'cause quite a few of the big servers tend to lag, drop, stutter, however you choose to call it, and they really need admining during the game itself - more people = more potential for abuse.

Whether you like the new gamestyle or not is a personal preference, I'm not too great a fan myself, but I do see the other side's point of view.

Hopefully, we'll get some new maps, optimised & designed for 50 in mind and some more tweaks, so all this will go away :)

edit: oh, yeah, and I'd like for 50 player servers to run with standard 32 ppl loadouts, as discussed in other threads, to get the bolt spirit back, methinks some of the charm is gone this way :\
 

gast

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 26, 2007
11
0
0
I don't see why you say that. I also don't see why everyone is claiming that this game was "super mega ultra tactical" before 50 player servers came out. I remember countless times hearing everyone shout "JUST GET IN THE CAPZONE, GET IN THERE!" as the epitome of tactics.

15 minutes are just TOO short. ogledov 3 caps. 10 men hill 10 men farm rest inside tanks. i have NEVER seen the germans win that map in that short time.

with so many players you either:

waste time waiting for a vehicle to spawn
waste time for waiting for add. crewmembers. even if noone is around
waste up to 40seconds for repspawn
waste time for reaching positions by steatlh

and you die much faster with that much players.

you spend more time waiting, than playing.

so the players adapt to deathmatch tactics. rush rush panzerfaust spam here gren spam there blind shooting blah.

thats not really fun.



i just came back from a 6v6 ogledov. MUCH more fun!
 

Ullis

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 18, 2006
72
1
0
with so many players you either:

waste time waiting for a vehicle to spawn
waste time for waiting for add. crewmembers. even if noone is around
waste up to 40seconds for repspawn
waste time for reaching positions by steatlh
and you die much faster with that much players.

you spend more time waiting, than playing.

so the players adapt to deathmatch tactics. rush rush panzerfaust spam here gren spam there blind shooting blah.

Deatchmatch tactics can sure get you dead faster, but wouldn't lots of waiting connected to dying (respawn, vehicles, reaching the battlefield) make people try and avoid dying, i.e. non-deathmatch tactics.

I think the underlying problem with many veterans is a covert hatred of beginners (or n00bs). It's ultimately frustrating playing with a squad leader who places artillery in front of the cap zone. However, I've had some great experiences driving tanks for beginners. Getting them to stop aiming through the gun barrel alone is such a rush. The gratitude for some tips can be overwhelming.

Anyway, many soldiers in WWII were n00bs too, so I think it's actually realistic to have people who don't know when to keep their heads down and mistakes with artillery.
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
3,414
412
0
Finland
Anyway, many soldiers in WWII were n00bs too, so I think it's actually realistic to have people who don't know when to keep their heads down and mistakes with artillery.

I wonder how this argument relates with RO itself. Sure you are partly correct, but there is quite a diffrence between a trained military person and bunch of players who just want to have fun or 'enjoy' their WW2 action.

50 player servers are somewhat nice, especially in these so-called larger maps, but the quality also seen that E.G. Odessa with 50 players is pretty much like a turkey shooting range. And yes - quite many maps do have this problem.

Putting that aside - I don't know what is really that much special about 50 player servers. Sure there are more players -> more idiots -> more tks -> more lame spamming -> more gamey issues brought up, but it is kinda funny that now that people have got their larger servers (as people used to complain that "omg omg 32 is not enough") - they immediatly complain about it more. Oh the irony.

50 player servers do have one advatange over 32 player servers. They do have more action around. Even though it might be entirely mindless run'gun ala CS BOOM HEADSHOTing, it still attracts people more and often you have your nice 'war' feelings around there

And I doubt you see 32 player servers having more teamwork. It may or may not apply - but come on. It is not exactly server related. You can see 32 player full but still there are more these 'idiots' than you can count for that kills teammates for weapons, makes sure you can't hit a **** with your tank or makes sure you have very bad line of sight.

And same applies with 50 player servers. And same applies with 32 player servers. And 40 player servers. And whatever damm server you can name with X amount of players. It is not like magically playing in 32 player server you end up having team work, hand signals, real usage of tactics used back then, a real squad deployment and bla bla. I am not saying that 50 player servers would have this - but everything's pretty much related with some other stuff - like admins and such.

And I mean it. It is not that magically any time any day you join to a 32 player server you would see evertyhing re-created as was done back then. Sure there's a higher chance of teamwork - but that doesn't mean it would be impossible to see such thing in 50 player server. And especially (based on my own experience) you DO see more teamwork in 50 player servers in combined arms maps than in 32 player servers.
 

Major_Day

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2007
2,651
329
0
Glasgow, Scotland
I positive idea came to my mind.

Bigger player count attracts more people.
More people might make more clans.
Not everyone can afford to spend on a 50 player server... so It might spawn some new good active 26 to 32 player clan servers :D

Bigger player counts attract more ppl to the bigger servers thats all.
I just this morning shut down and cancelled renewal of one of my servers,due to lack of use,how many other ppl and clan's might be thinking of having to do the same,because their clan members or regulars have all started to play on the 50 servers.
Unlike you I see their being fewer clans,and fewer 24/32 servers,because ppl. aren't going to keep running and paying for servers if their empty.
 

Major_Day

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2007
2,651
329
0
Glasgow, Scotland
I agree with REZ. I'd like to add a few comments however. For one, many here say that we are not being forced to play on the larger severs--while this is technically true, in practice, it doesn't hold up so well. Many nights I have gone on, seen that all my favorites are deserted and had to go and search for other servers. What do I find? Generally the servers with more than 20 people on them are those with player count max at 40-50. So I suck it up and join the big servers. What happens then? Well I get TK'ed like there's no tomorrow (both intentionally and accidental), I get no one willing to coordinate with me, I get people shooting eachother over who gets to be in the tank by themself, and I get the one thing I'd never heard in RO until those free weekends showed up: people screaming over voicechat, people calling eachother "***," all manner of racist remarks, and people honestly accusing eachother of hacking.

Now I've been around this game a long time and I'll be damned if it is taken over by this sort of RO player. I came here in search of historical accuracy, an emphasis on realism, and a focus on the Eastern front. I stayed here for that and the amazing experience I was given by the gameplay and the community both in game and on the forums. We've come a long way since those days. It's been ok though, because I've still had 2Manny's and several of the "old guard" servers from the original RO clans around. I was able to play with the sort of people that made this game what it was. Since those 50 player servers have gone up though, all those servers have been ghost towns.

Does this kill RO? No. But it might for me. I've been annoyed that Tripwire doesn't address things like the unrealistic SMGs, the lack of mantling, the lack of AT mines and grenades, the lack of a variable crouch height being implemented, the fact that "pop-up" riflemen are still a reality, and guns that do not collide with the environment....but I can survive that with little more than a few grumbles and a hope for the future. Why? Because the RO experience was nonetheless still intact for me online despite my gripes with what I previously listed. Now though, the experience is changing. I for one am seeing dark clouds on the horizon. A storm is brewing--and the thunder sounds like "BOOM HEADSHOT U ***."

Couldn't have said it better myself. Agree completely.
ps:Quote:

"What happens then? Well I get TK'ed like there's no tomorrow (both intentionally and accidental), I get no one willing to coordinate with me, I get people shooting eachother over who gets to be in the tank by themself, and I get the one thing I'd never heard in RO until those free weekends showed up: people screaming over voicechat, people calling eachother "***," all manner of racist remarks, and people honestly accusing eachother of hacking. "

BF1942 ANYBODY?
 

Koolhan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 14, 2007
9
0
0
36
To me, on some maps the big servers work alright, but there aren't that many, and none are specifically designed for it. Plus, I have experienced the lag warping a dozen times or more on the big servers, and not at all on smaller servers. The problem is that the larger player limit should have been released with a more comprehensive patch, complete with maps designed for that game play, perhaps new objectives that take into account a larger player base, new vehicles, etc. Sure, that's asking for a lot, but it just makes sense, and really, we wouldn't be complaining would we? No, because we wouldn't need to know that 50 player servers were possible until they released the patch.

As an example of how 50 players can ruin a game. Just last night I hopped into a 50 player server doing Kaukasus. Now, that can be a pretty enclosed map with just 28 or 30 people, but add 20 more? It completely screwed with game play. The Germans couldn't even get out of Backroute the whole entire game. Was it because they sucked? No, it was a pub, they tend to even themselves out unless there is heavy team stacking(there wasn't). The culprit my friends, was the sheer amount of firepower they had to wade through to get to the objective. It didn't matter that they had the same player advantage. There were 10 extra russian players tossing grenades and bullets into that relatively small funnel, and the Shephard's hut area was a chaotic mess too. Think about that, 10 extra russians=20 extra grenades, and a few hundred extra bullets tearing down into those two relatively small spaces. That is overkill, and it was. It didn't matter if the Germans managed to go on a good run and kill 6 Russkies(a major blow in a normal game), because the next spawn wave(5 seconds away), would spawn a dozen or more guys to take their place with fresh grenades.

Another thing I've noticed is that with a larger player base, there are more kills/deaths, however you want to look at it, and some maps are suffering on a reinforcements standpoint. I've seen reinforcements depleted with 5 minutes to go in a game on the 50 player servers, with each team killing at a normal rate, noting fancy. Especially Leningrad. On smaller servers it comes down to objectives, on larger servers it comes down to reinforcements and inevitably ends in a mop up situation for the Germans. Now, some games were made exciting as hell because of this(holding the bridge with a handful of guys for the last minutes), and some were made to be ridiculous(one guy left hiding as four minutes tick down, and the Germans had only taken the first objective).

These are just things I've noticed with the big servers. It isn't so much that it is a bad idea, but it sure could have been implemented better. So many maps reek of Half-Life 2:Deathmatch or some other similar game(not saying that's a bad game, but it is not RO).

Off the top of my head, the worst maps I've played with the 50 player limit are: Danzig(too small of an urban environment, reminds me of a deathmatch map with 50 players), StalingradKessel(Almost the same as Danzig, but a bit better, because there are some areas with room to breathe), Arad, Leningrad(Reinforcements,sometimes), Kaukasus(Backroute of death), Basovka(too small, maybe if it were the old Ponyri), and some of the custom maps I am blanking on but you get the picture.
 

ButchCassidy

Moderator
Feb 17, 2006
3,726
277
0
The Hole in the Wall
www.twbclan.com
Change can be a painful process for some of us sometimes.
I remember just after the game being released many of the original mod players stating that the game had been ruined and that it was doomed to failure.

But here we are some 18 months later with a much bigger community and the game actually growing in popularity.

The introduction of bigger server player numbers has probabaly seen the biggest single influx of players into the game since its original release.

No doubt many players will leave and many will join and all will state it was this that made me leave or this which made me buy the game but that's the nature of online gaming to have an ever changing face with regards to the popularity or not of a certain game.

Through all of this Tripwire and it's staff have remained steadfast in their support of their product and it's community.

And have publicly stated that this support will not be changing in the immediate future.

They visit these boards and post daily and i doubt that anyone in the community thinks they are not listening.

I seem to remember the huge pats on the back and compliments that flew around these boards when it was announced that they were going to actually test for 50+ players.
And even more when the test server went live.

TWI are simply doing what I wish many other developers would do throughout the gaming industry and that is actually support the product to with the full involvement of the communites that grow from the games.

With this kind of track record I fail to see how anyone can think that TWI will leave the game as it is.
It simply will not happen.
They will improve upon the maps that don't play as well as others, They will introduce more content to suite the new sized servers and they will continue support the mappers, modders and all of us in the process.
I have been gaming for a very very long time and I can only think of one other developer who supported a product in a similar way and that was Valve.

So please lets have a bit less of the hand ringing, teeth clenching, headshaking drama.
Give them some time to assess and modify (where needs be) the impact these changes have made overall to the game and it's players before we all start claiming the game and it's community are doomed.

Pheww pauses for breath...lol;)
 
Last edited:

LordKhaine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 19, 2005
1,008
120
0
UK
Amazing how strongly some people dislike 50 player servers. People likening a game to BF2 because there are more players in a server? Sorry.. I fail to see the logic in that. All these complaints about a lack of tactics or grenade spamming. As if those don't happen in 32 players? Nade spam happens just as much with 50 as with 32. The only difference is more people get killed by a single nade.

I'd also argue there is often more reason for team tactics with 50 players. Before with 16 a side on many many maps it was all too easy to sneak past defences and backstab a ton of defenders. Now it more often requires teamwork and clever tactics to flank an enemy, you can't simply walk around the defenders like you can with smaller sides. On 32 player servers I usually didn't bother to group some team mates because it usually held me back by making it harder to sneak the flanks. With 25 a side I can't recall how many times me and some team mates have fought through a flank as a combined force.

When it all comes down to it, this thread is pointless. 50 player limits have not changed gameplay at all for those still on 32 player servers. But still people complain and insult others for playing the game the way they want to on different servers. And that complaining will never go away.
 

PermenentMarker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
1,448
222
0
Montreal Quebec
www.coolit-online.com
50 players is a different gameplay...
Take it from an experienced Lonewolf :p

(Lonewolf, however I will always go with commander orders and smoke when it is there)

With 26 to 32 players... I go off on my own hunting my way to the objectives... because thats where I get 10 easy points :p

With 40 to 50 players... I camp back in a decent area with good view of a path to the objecive and pick people off... there is no point in moving up alone...
I only move up when I see a good number (minimum 4 guys) moving up OR if I see that the area is pretty clear and that is rare....

However I agree that there is still a mass of people who just run into the waves killing the reinforcements.... Everyone can play the way they want...

The key is to addapt to the change...
 

gast

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 26, 2007
11
0
0
Deatchmatch tactics can sure get you dead faster, but wouldn't lots of waiting connected to dying (respawn, vehicles, reaching the battlefield) make people try and avoid dying, i.e. non-deathmatch tactics.

indirectly i was refering to me. i play egoshooters since MANY years. why should i waste my time (on a 50 man 15 minute server) with sneaking to the position, lets say the hill in ogle, just to kill one or two and then get gangbanged by the remaining 8.

since i know that there is so less time, i wont sneak, but play deathmatchstyle. I can survive longer, but its less fun. and it seems that others try to deathmatch too, but most fail. either they dont hit or teamkill in the action.

im NOT against 50 man servers, when the map is built for that AND the timelimit is tweaked.

is there ANY reason NOT to play a one hour round, or till the objecitves are reached?

while 10 minutes on a full server can be enough to win (much and fast action at every corner), 20 minutes on a big map is way too short.

i never join orel servers. AGES to reach the front and if you are unlucky, you are dead ASAP. and if you finally got into the flow, the time is over.

heck i stopped playing DOD for RO, and even DOD got servers with longer rounds (or votes for add, time) and its DEATHMATCH pure.

my fav option would be:
unlimited time. map ends when the objectives are reached. (1/1, 2/2, 3/3, etc..). everyone is able to reach the vote. if you got enough from that map, vote.
 

Lionel-RIchie

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 29, 2006
701
8
0
36
TN, US
*shrug* My playstyle hasn't changed at all since the upgrade. The only difference could be my frusturation with the extremely small maps like Krasnyi and Kauskaus (trying to take the fort with 25 Russians inside? Whew..), but I tend to avoid playing those maps.
 

jokerl90

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 2, 2007
8
0
0
Was on a nearly full 50 server this morning. We were talking with each other on VOIP, planning attacks. Using tanks and half-tracks together. Very enjoyable.