BF3 has intrinsically better teamwork than RO2

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vyyye

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 13, 2011
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By arbitrary "toss ammo here for score". If it didn't give score, no-one would toss the ammo or heal anyone else except themselves.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to have any relevance to anything. If someone is helping me out in a game I really don't care if he does it to be a good team player or if he wants to stroke his e-peen with a high score, I'll still get the ammo/health. If someone who would otherwise not do anything for his team does help out due to being rewarded by the game that's good game design, not a flaw.
 
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MarioBava

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 8, 2006
810
191
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I don't know. I can't afford to buy a bunch of games so I don't have BF3 and can't compare. But in all honesty I prefer a game like you are describing RO2 in comparison; a game that, instead of through map design forcing players into the same areas and calling the resulting semblance of commonality in engagement "teamwork", rather lays itself on the table and says "this is a team-oriented game, but I'm not going to force you to go anywhere. You have to choose to be a team player and the leadership has to choose to lead well."

I guess the idea that some people have is that somehow achievements and stats and progression offer the message that individual accomplishments are equally as important as team goals. I just don't see it that way and I think fewer people see it that way than is suggested. To me the primary motivation in RO2 is match wins, period. My measure of success is did my team win or at least make a good try of it and did I contribute to that, and I honestly believe that the lion's share of RO2 players see it that way, too, unless they are just playing on a bots rank-up server in between more "serious" matches. And, notably, team-oriented play is by design what advances personal progression the fastest. Maybe there are features that could balance the notion of individual accomplishment, such as a reckoning at the end of rounds where if you are are below a threshold of team points your individual points do not get earned. Or less negatively, a team bonus divided amongst all the roles and weapons you used if you were on the winning side in a round and contributed above a certain threshold of team points. Something like that.

But regarding map design, RO2 is about the Battle of Stalingrad: a chaotic, unpredictable kind of urban battlefield where funneling teams into predicted routes is counter to the nature of the environment. There should be many routes and options for resourceful players/teams. It should be chaotic and unpredictable and there should be room for the famous "gangster tactics". There's also irony somewhere in that there are also a lot of people saying that RO2's maps are too restrictive and not open-ended enough (even with mantling mechanic!). Go figure.

The squad system as it is now it could just as well not be there. You pretty much never know with whom you are in a squad with and generally do not care about it either. And your entire squad spawns all over the map. Any form of squad cohesion like that is simply lost.

If you could make your own squad with some people that you like and could somehow always spawn roughly at the same side of the battle it could be a lot easier to coordinate play.

Your overhead maps shows in real time where your squad mates and squad leader are. The "join a squad view" (which I feel should be default, I'll grant) of role selection shows you which squad you are in as well as the scoreboard which is available any time during a round. Server settings allow nearby player names to show, which are color coded by squad and fire team as well as squad leader and team leader. Spawn selection generally offers you options that will put you in the vicinity of your squad, if you bother to check where they are, or if the squad leader is in a spawnable location or if your squad is actually using the VOIP communicating with each other about those types of things. You can lead a horse to water...

Also, you can kind of create your own squad by using the "join a squad" role selection view in concert with your friends if you are talking on a 3rd party voip, but agree it would be nice to have some features to facilitate this process in the game, though I'm not sure what exactly could be done. Ideas? Game has friends feature; it would be nice if there was an option that automatically put you into the same squad as friends when possible.

But in general I think the main thing needed in squad tactics isn't so much the command structure, people will generally not listen anyway. But simply making it easy to communicate with people around you, like quickly saying watch out there is an enemy behind the corner. Or asking can you cover that window while I try to run to that door.

Small events like the above are what make me feel there can be real teamwork in a game. If there is no way to easily point out something and talk about it to the people you want to share it with you simply don't get teamwork you get clutter.

It is really really really hard to communicate those basic things in a video game without adding features that hardcore realism people will not whine about, and while positional audio could help in a real way and is a good idea, it'll still be more difficult than it should be. It's why people come up with names for areas, buildings, and locations for things in the game and should take the half second to familiarize themselves with cardinal directions in the maps (btw, you don't need a compass, one quick glance at the overhead map will orient you). There is already a spotting mechanic people need to be more aware of. If you've identified the location of an enemy you can hit the spot key and your character will vocalize it and then for a short time the Tactical display will show the location of what you spotted. Nearby players who are paying attention could hear the vocalization, and it could be reinforced through the intelligent use of VOIP ("hey, sniper on east side 3rd floor window grain elevator!") regardless of proximity.

I really don't know. Like I said, I prefer voluntary rather than artificial simulation of team play. If you funnel all the players into the same area they can be truly playing like individuals and it will still seem like a team effort because they're going to encounter the same opposition because of being in the same area. Whereas, if the comparison is valid, RO2 requires of people to not be lazy and individualistic and put a little effort into both the leadership and a conscious team effort. To actually choose to go by your squad leader's side. Because of this sometimes if feels less than perfect, because people are not perfect, but when a team is working together it is quite rewarding because it wasn't just a simulation through map design, it was brought about voluntarily by actually using the game's various team features including constructive use of VOIP.

At the end of the day, only some team effort wins matches in RO2, not a map-designed convergence of good shooters.
 

Holy.Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
1,427
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Nazarov said:
Psh. My experience with the VOIP commanders was horrendous.
I had better experience on both sides - people asking or telling about artillery, requesting support, recon, ammo, warning about certain threats, etc. There always will be a bunch of fools, but in the end you can ignore or mute them and work with those more communicative and helpful.

I use the VOIP quite rarely if I am not SL or TL, but it is better to shout: "Artillery on the left flank! Everybody into the tunnel!". And you know what? Six or seven guys actually listened to me and ran into the tunnel, saving themselves from the death from above.

Of course, not everybody like my voice, but since they say: "Shut up" rather than: "Could you lower your voice a bit? etc." I simply ignore them. I am not in this game for such stupid kids (I refer to their mental status, their real age does not matter) and I feel no need to do their bidding before they learn a bit of politeness. To further illustrate my point - I tried my micro once and people told me that they can't hear me very well (my microphone was too quiet) when I was a commander, so I left the game, changed a few things and returned. Then they told me they can hear me. Harmony.
 
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dogbadger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2006
3,230
553
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here to kill your monster
I cant compare these 2 games because i haven't played them however when ppl talk about realistic shooter games they often tend to focus on details and overlook the overall experience.

It's more than just a matter of realistic weapon characteristics or body movement/damage, what's paramount is how teammates interact to achieve objectives - and a clever game can have features which enforce/enhance this, without feeling overbearing or restrictive.
 

Omar The Insurgent

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 23, 2006
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Last BF game I played was BF2 and if maps are anything similar to it, it's not hard to figure out why "teamwork" is easier.

BF3 maps, from the videos and screenshots are: either open maps with short buildings which you can easily navigate trough(in RO2 you can get confused when 2 objectives are one on top of another), or narrow maps which objectives push you into momentum.(I could be wrong since I don't plan on buying that pos)

About the teamwork in RO2: it HAS all the tools you need(let's not argue about which specific game has the tools more user-friendly): Squad system, Commander role, VOIP, voice comms, visible squad buddies on map, tactical display BUT building teamwork is VERY hard in realistic games. Ever tried to organize a squad on public? Ever tried to manage a squad with microphone? Even if you get people to listen to you, after they all die from artillery strike, their morale will drop, just like IRL. You can't just scream at them, you have to be smart and find the way out of the situation.
 

AmazingMilto

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 20, 2011
357
144
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England
He has a point, even the open maps of Battlefield 3 have these choke points.

Caspian Border has some interesting battle's on it, most that cannot be won without teamwork.

I mean, try a Conquest Large with a 1000 tickets, watch the battle that almost always happens for D.

But yes, RO2's maps are lacking that special something, well, once the SDK comes out, this will no doubt change.
 

Mekhazzio

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 21, 2011
1,104
641
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I really don't know. Like I said, I prefer voluntary rather than artificial simulation of team play.
Amen. Teamwork is someone picking off the guy that's busy pinning you down. Teamwork is using zones of responsibility as you enter a building or cover a field so that one person doesn't have to watch everything. Teamwork is not crossing each other's lines of fire. Teamwork is doing bounding overwatch with someone so you both can advance in safety.

Teamwork is not the game patting you on the head with a stream of "+5 XP! GREAT JOB TEAM!" just because people are within some arbitrary proximity.

Great post, by the way.
 

salti

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 6, 2006
254
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BF3 has got a lot of thing's right , that you get time on a server where things work out with teamwork and at or times not is just in the mix of how all gaming goes.....even in in the good ol times of RO-Ost there were times when it worked out really well , then again ......sometimes you needed the patience of a saint.
The shear size and detail of the BF3 maps the detail and the destruction are all factor's adding too the fun of how they've built the game , there getting the balance in the weapon's somewhere near too where it makes sence.
You still get the sad gits being a level 300 sniper but they dont disturb the game play as much as they did in BF-BC2 , and the air power has'nt taken over where it nearly destroyed BF2 game play.
They've down a good job , and a squad can swing things liking one does'nt exclude the other , playing on a RO2 server a few days ago was good fun , quite a lot of team play , hard tactical game.....tzhere's someting in both world's , for those who wish too have it
 

luciferintears

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2011
1,122
510
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yeah it was odd, i noticed this too.

in BF3 you kind of stick together since the classes are also dependent on one another...
 

Insurance Salesman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
45
14
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For me, there are three things that create teamwork in BF3 compared to RO2:

1. The kits. The fact that each type of soldier, besides recon (nobody likes them anyways), can contribute some sort of team healing or specialized role really helps bring each squad together. RO kinda has this with giving ammo for MG's, but its really not that prevalant (and certainly nowhere near as pervasive as the kits are in BF3).

2. The much smaller squads. Since each squad is so small, it really helps you understand who your "buddies" on the battlefield are and work together. Plus it's easier to give orders to three other guys you're working together with than to try to get 10 or more soldiers spread all over the place to do what you want.

3. The squad spawning system (where guys can spawn on any other member of the squad). This REALLY helps teamplay, since it means that good squads will be together at all times, ready to help each other and move as a unit. In RO2, meanwhile, the squad leader's death means that basically the remains of the squad are left to fend for themselves.
 

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
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By arbitrary "toss ammo here for score". If it didn't give score, no-one would toss the ammo or heal anyone else except themselves.

Also, because of the spawning system it gives the illusion of teamwork, because everyone is clustered together. You can see how much people like teamwork after the latest patch when no-one ever joins squads because now you don't do it automatically LOL.

I disagree. RnL proved a game can have teamwork and do all of this without achievements. Why? Because if there are no achievements, then you get your high off of being apart of the team and taking orders to push back the Americans or Germans, depending what side you were playing on.
 

Westernesse

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 11, 2011
406
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Going from Insurgency (best teanwork game I've ever played but smaller playerbase then RO2 has now) to BC2, the teamwork seemed almost non-existent. Your squad might do stuff, but no way to work as a team. Even then squad stuff was mostly selfish things that might end up helping your or they might not. I didn't get BF3 because alpha test for it was pretty much the same way. It seems like the type of game I might buy at $10-20, but not $60. If they released it at a comparable price to RO2 pre-orders $32, I might of bought it. Your way more of a one man wrecking crew in BF3/BC2 than you can ever be in RO2, except maybe as commander.
 

Poerisija

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 15, 2009
617
800
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I'm not sure what that's supposed to have any relevance to anything. If someone is helping me out in a game I really don't care if he does it to be a good team player or if he wants to stroke his e-peen with a high score, I'll still get the ammo/health. If someone who would otherwise not do anything for his team does help out due to being rewarded by the game that's good game design, not a flaw.


That's just the thing. If he could score easy points all by himself while NOT giving you points he'd do it. Why do medics ever use medikit instead of grenade launcher? Because they want to heal themselves. People in BF3 only play for the team when they KNOW the people they're playing with.

In public there's illusion of teamplay because when you want to heal, you'll heal everyone around and when you want ammo, you'll give it to everyone around you. Teamplaying has been made so easy it only requires one button.

People wouldn't do it if it was any more complex than that. Granted, it's good design considering today's gamers. But does it make a deep and rewarding teamplay system? No.
 

Dr.Phibes

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 24, 2010
452
124
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Haha,

I like how many dislikes the OP got for saying this.

Quite funny, really. People get upset when someone say BF3 is more tactical. Some people really want RO2 to be something it really isn't. :D

And some want you to shut up for a second...

I mean really, you hate RO2, that's fine. But can you please go somewhere else instead of complaining here 24/7?
 
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NoxNoctum

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2007
2,968
722
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To be honest, if you put away the nostalgia of the "good old times", public games were never about teamwork in RO. It was always everybody for himself, there was little communication and the game never really encouraged people to team-up or act together.

VOIP users were mostly frowned upon as "annoying smartass guys" and were promptly muted. Chat messages were ignored or missed because of the always-present Voice Command spam. Nobody really listened to the Squad Leader, only valuable thing about that role was the smoke grenades. Classes didn't really interact with each other.

And it was fine. It's one of the things in the "RO recipe". It didn't force you to coordinate, and you could do great by yourself(if you were skilled enough). If you teamed up, you could do better for a while, but could not really dominate because death was quick, spawn times long, and then teammates were far away. The better team in RO was always comprimised of better individual players, not best teamworkers(I'm strictly talking about public games, and vanilla RO).

Actually, I think RO2 has better teamwork potential than RO just because there is spawning on squad leaders. Which also makes the game more "casual friendly", for people who just want to play together with friends. Also screen overlays, enemy spotting all increase teamwork incentives(aside from their half-assed implementation).

I think the problem here is that you are looking for actual teamwork in RO2. RO wasn't really designed for it, what made it great was that it made you feel like a regular soldier all alone in the battlefield(compared to RO2's rambo feeling). Battlefield on the other hand is designed from the ground up for teamwork, people in squads sticking and working together, classes working together and interacting with each other (revive, ammo, medkit, repair, spotting, different target types etc).

Now, clan match gameplay was completely different and depended heavily on player skill firstly and tactics/positioning secondly.

Just my view on the issue as a very long time player.

I disagree RO had much better ebb and flow to the battle. It doesn't really feel like are frontlines in RO2. I dunno why, maybe it's just another aspect of the sped up, SMG spammy gameplay.