Beta feedback: Problems with damage model

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Just played for 3 hours straight in the beta, testing wether the stats were working and so forth, which they now seem to do.

However I found some inaccuracies with the damage model, for example that it takes 3 shots to kill someone with an Mkb to the chest. Now that's just wrong, the thing shoots rifle rounds, should do the same amount of damage as a G41 or SVT40, or at least very close to.

Shot someone directly in the right part of the chest with it, and he was able to just patch it up. Now in real life I'm afraid he would've definitely gone to the ground.

Has any changes been made to the guns in the beta vs the retail version, or is this simply a bug in the beta?

 

[Karnatakapunk]

Maybe, the close range hit reg detection problem.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Maybe, the close range hit reg detection problem.

Might be, just letting the devs know about it

 

[Golf33]

Don't the MkB fire under powered rifle caliber rounds - not at all the same thing used in the K98 or G41?

I always thought it seemed quite over powered compared to both SMGs and full power rifles and LMGs. Making it less lethal would be good in my view.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Don't the MkB fire under powered rifle caliber rounds - not at all the same thing used in the K98 or G41?

The effect when hitting flesh is essentially the same, the 7.92x57mm, 7.62x54R & 7.92x33mm Kurz are all flying at well above supersonic speed. The result is much more devastating wounds than what a pistol round will create.

Keep in mind that the 7.92x33 Kurz develops nearly 4 times the power of a 9mm Parabellum or 7.62x25mm Tokarev round for example, and is comparable to the 7.62x39mm round used by the AK47. A single round to the chest by an AK47 and you're definitely going down!

I always thought it seemed quite over powered compared to both SMGs and full power rifles and LMGs. Making it less lethal would be good in my view.

Making it less powerful would be very unrealistic, esp. seeing as it's nearly four times as powerful as an SMG in real life.

7.92x33mm Kurz: 8.1 gram bullet at 685 m/s (StG) = kinetic energy of 1900 Joules
9x19mm Parabellum: 8 gram bullet at 365 m/s (P38) - 380 m/s (MP40) = kinetic energy of 532 - 577 Joules
7.62x25mm Tokarev: 5.6 gram bullet at 442 m/s (TT33) - 457 m/s (PPSh) = kinetic energy of 547 - 584 Joules

 

[Golf33]

But don't the full power rifle cartridges develop something like 3500-4000 joules? So they should be twice as damaging as the kurz... At the moment I can put 3 or 4 rounds into someone with an LMG (definite hits, based on observed blood splatter) and they walk away unhurt. But I frequently die to a single hit from an MkB. Maybe the problem is with the damage model for LMG rounds being too weak, but I would hate to see the MkB get a boost as it already seems more powerful than an LMG to me.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

But don't the full power rifle cartridges develop something like 3500-4000 joules? So they should be twice as damaging as the kurz...

Hehe, doesn't quite work like that That would be the same as saying that someone shot in the head by a 9mm round will be less dead than one shot in the head by a 7.62mm Nato round

The point is that the 7.92x57, 7.62x54 or 7.92x33 all three move at way above the speed of sound, and they will produce essentially the same effect upon hitting flesh = a very large temporary cavity and shockwave effect, which causes a lot of internal damage, something that regular pistol rounds don't achieve.

As a general rule rifle rounds will incapacitate someone with a direct hit to the chest 99% of the time, whilst pistol rounds have a much lower chance of doing so and often have to hit something vital, and this should be reflected ingame as-well.

In short this means that ingame it shouldn't take more than one shot to the chest of someone with an 7.92x57, 7.62x54 or 7.92x33 round to immediately kill him atleast 90% of the time or cause slow death in the last 10% (This is excluding hitting the heart or spine which are intant kills with all rounds ingame). At the same time pistol rounds should have to hit something vital within the chest to instantly incapacitate someone, like the heart or spine, or two anywhere else to the chest.

At the moment I can put 3 or 4 rounds into someone with an LMG (definite hits, based on observed blood splatter) and they walk away unhurt. But I frequently die to a single hit from an MkB. Maybe the problem is with the damage model for LMG rounds being too weak, but I would hate to see the MkB get a boost as it already seems more powerful than an LMG to me.

Well if that is the case then there's definitely something wrong with the damage model, and all rifle rounds need an increase in damage.

 

[Reise]

Chest hits should be 2 hits max with any weapon.

And if you survive the first hit, it should be a mortal wound leading to slow death.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Chest hits should be 2 hits max with any weapon.

And if you survive the first hit, it should be a mortal wound leading to slow death.

Well, you can get hit in the chest by a pistol round an survive it, whilst the chances are a lot slimmer with a rifle round.

Anyway I hope the larger shockwave effect of rifle rounds is taken into account ingame, so that rifle rounds only have to hit near vital parts to damage them, where's pistol rounds will have to directly hit the vital parts to cause them damage.

So I'd say 2 hits max to the chest for pistols & SMGs (excluding heart & spine which are instants ofcourse), and 1 hit max to the chest for rifles & assault rifles.

In short:

MGs, Rifles & Assault rifles:
Primary vitals (Head, heart & spine) = 1 shot causes instant death
Chest area = 1 shot causes instant death 90% of the time, slow death 10% of the time
Stomach area = 1 shot causes instant death 25% of the time, slow death 75% of the time
Main arteries = 1 shot causes slow death
Extremeties (legs & arms) = 1 shot causes fast bleeding, 2 shots cause instant death 50% and slow death 50%

SMG's & Pistols:
Primary vitals (Head, heart & spine) = 1 shot causes instant death
Chest area = 1 shot causes fast bleeding, 2 shots cause instant death 90% of the time, slow death 10% of the time
Stomach area = 1 shot causes slow bleeding, 2 shots cause instant death 25% of the time, slow death 75% of the time
Main arteries = 1 shot causes slow death
Extremeties (legs & arms) = 1 shot causes slow bleeding, 2 shots cause fast bleeding, 3 shots cause slow death, 4 shots cause instant death

 

[MikkOwl]

Shockwave effect and temporal cavity being killers is as far as I know, a myth (heard from morgue worker who did in the thousands of autopsies over his lifetime). Death is from blood loss. Bullets all punch holes in people and make them bleed. Hitting large, blood filled organs, will make them bleed a bit faster. Larger wounds can make them bleed faster. But it is still more than enough time for them to kill you. To instantly incapacitate someone, must hit central nervous system (i.e. spine, neck, brain) or break bones required for whatever action they are performing.

Some rifle bullets traveling at very high speed, fragment (especially nasty!) and/or yaw, slicing and dicing up more than their diameter would imply.

Apparently, teaching law enforcement about myths like these, and of 'knockdown power' is a real issue to overcome. What immediate reaction should one expect from shooting someone twice in the heart with a .45 caliber pistol? Nothing. Can't keep standing and fighting for a very long time though.

The MKb42 has probably less fragmentation and yaw than the full sized rifle cartridges. It might do the same, less or more damage than the SMG bullets. I doubt it makes much a difference at close range. Gameplay wise, it should probably be doing damage in between the pistol cartridges and the rifle cartridges, which I think it already does.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Well according to thurough research large temporary cavity & shockwave effect actually cause massive blood loss as compared to pistol rounds. The shockwave is powerful enough to break bones and rupture vital organs, causing massive bloodloss or instant death in some cases.

As an example, a rifle round won't need to directly hit the heart to seriously damage it, just passing nearby is enough to cause ruptures to the heart, which needless to say is fatal. And a rifle round hitting anywhere else in the chest area will cause massive internal bleeding.

Now ofcourse the power of the shockwave in part depends how fast the bullet is going and partly how stable the bullet is upon hitting flesh,. But since rifle bullets are more longitudinally unstable then pistol bullets they also tend to tumble more upon entering soft tissue than pistol bullets do, further increasing the amount of damage they inflict.

Finally, a rifle bullet to the chest stuns, a lot, again thanks to the shockwave effect. Regular pistol bullets don't stun the same amount, until you start using special hydrashock bullets, which do have a very good one shot incapacitation ability.

As for the morque worker you talked to, there's a very high chance that he has examined mostly pistol inflicted fatalities and not so much rifle inflicted ones as these are must less common.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

7.92x33mm can produce wounding similar to 7.62x39mm M43, which needless to say since you know about Terminal Ballistics, creates wounds no larger than Pistol rounds due to it's extreme stability while traversing tissue (with hits that strike bone being an exception.) Temporary cavity is also nothing special in the case of M43, and I personally am not a believer that it can be a reliable factor into incapacition - surely it can be fatal in rare situations, that is fact, but to refer to it as a factor of instant incapacitation is unwise.

Two excellent examples of Temporary Cavity being unreliable are the .30 Carbine and 5.56mm rounds.
Both of them produce quite good Temporary cavitation when fired through ballistics gel. However, both of them are considered mediocre stoppers - that the only reliable wounding you can get out of them is when they yaw in tissue, creating a larger Permanent cavity.

Another possible argument in this regard is Soldiers who often refer to their high-powered 7.62mm weapons failing to incapicitate at extremely short ranges because of "over-penetrating" - this slang term means that, as the Soldier percieved it, the round went straight through without leaving a large exit wound. This is entirely due to the unreliability in the 7.62x51mm round to yaw at extremely short range; under 50m, it may yaw at certain velocity intervals, but at others it will fail to. When it fails to yaw, the permanent cavity is much smaller, but the temporary cavity is still the same. Yet the enemy fails to reliably be incapicitated - as said above, because the permanent cavity is small, while the temporary is still the same.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Well we have to agree to disagree on this Panzer Jager 43.

An important factor to how well a bullet will incapacitate a target is how powerful a schockwave it creates, also refered to as hydrostatic shock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Also be careful relying too much on gelatine tests, as the elasticity differs from muscle and vital organs. What differs rifle rounds from pistol rounds is how much damage they cause to less elastic materials, where rifle rounds cause dramatically higher amounts of damage than pistol rounds. Best way to demonstrate this would be to shoot at clay targets and observe the large difference in effects.

"Deformation of the bullet, fragmentation of the bullet or secondary targets such as bone, and amount of kinetic energy imparted to tissues, as well as tissue characteristics affect patterns of tissue injury. The higher the specific gravity of tissue, the greater the damage. Elasticity reduces damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have little tensile strength and elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated. A bullet striking bone may cause fragmentation of bone and/or bullet, with numerous secondary missiles formed, each producing additional wounding. Fragmentation increases the permanent cavity size (Maiden, 2009)."

Source: http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html

Hence why many times people shot in the leg rifles where bullet passed nearby the bone, not directly hitting the bone, still managed to facture it. This is the work of the shockwave.

A simple way to observe how devastating this shockwave can be is to, as mentioned, shoot at clay targets and observe the difference between the cavitation of a rifle round and a pistol round. Shooting at water melons also kinda demonstrates the difference.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

The problem is when you start shooting at human-sized clay dummies and end up cutting them to pieces with an RPK, where as grown man would not be split in two even by the same amount of firepower. This is because flesh is more elastic than clay, a LOT more.

Gelatin is a better resource than clay, as it's a better simulant of most tissue and organs; obviously the liver is a harder organ and more prone to damage from temporary cavity, but the majority of your body is not composed of your liver.

And, if you want to use Wikipedia as a reference:

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power"][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power[/URL][/URL]

The effects of temporary cavitation are less well understood, due to a lack of a test material identical to living tissue. Studies on the effects of bullets typically are based on experiments using ballistic gelatin, in which temporary cavitation causes radial tears where the gelatin was stretched. Although such tears are visually engaging, some animal tissues (other than bone or liver) are more elastic than gelatin. In most cases, temporary cavitation is unlikely to cause anything more than a bruise.

Special Agent Gordon McNeill was struck in the neck by a high-velocity .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt. While the bullet did not directly contact the spine, and the wound incurred was not ultimately fatal, the temporary cavitation was sufficient to render SA McNeill paralyzed for several hours.

What is most notable is that:

-Some (perhaps animal only) tissue is even more elastic than gelatin, which mean it is less prone to being damaged by temporary cavity. You seem to forget that temporary cavity will cause no damage if it does not stretch tissue - I assure you 100% that my flesh is more elastic than clay.

-In most cases temporary cavity has caused nothing but bruising. This is extremely evident upon review of exit wounds.

-A man who was hit by a 5.56mm round, whose temporary cavity interrupted his spine, was completely incapacitated. Yes, temporary cavity did help (the bad guy) incapacitate it's target. But the effects were not permanent nor fatal (he fully recovered.)

Please... I know you're a knowledgable guy, but shooting clay and fruit is not a way to gauge what a weapon does to a person. Shooting harder materials than ballistics gel may help gauge what temporary cavity does to say the liver, or spinal cord, yes: I agree. But shooting ballistics gelatin covers pretty much everything else... and it's likely that in most scenarios where temporary cavity damages the spine, the damage is not permanent, regardless of how combat ineffective one becomes.

Don't get me wrong: I am not saying temporary cavity does nothing. There are, obviously, cases where it has incapacitated, killed, or both, where the permanent cavity would not have. However, they are more rare as a scenario than incapacitating or killing with permanent cavity. I would say incapacitating with temporary cavity is just as dependant on shot placement as with permanent cavity - however, in a completely different way.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Panzer Jager 43,

The reason I mentioned clay was for you too observe the difference in shockwave force, not what the bullet does when it enters a human body.

And while ballistics clay cannot be used as a human substitute, neither can ballistics gelatine.

As mentioned: "Elasticity reduces damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have little tensile strength and elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated."

In short, the difference between a regular FMJ pistol bullet and a regular FMJ rifle bullet is that:

A) The rifle bullet flies at up to twice the speed

B) The rifle bullet is less longitudinally stable

C) The higher speed of the rifle bullet generates a much larger shockwave and therefore temporary cavity upon hitting any form of tissue or material, increasing damage done as the shockwave is powerful enough alone to seriously damage vital organs or even bone that is merely nearby the path of the bullet.

Hence the many reports of fractured bones eventhough the bullet passed beside it, something observed exclusively with rifle inflicted wounds.

Having said this, the damage done if the bullet hits bone is also a lot more severe with rifle rounds, again due to how fast it's going creating a much more explosive effect.

Anyway there's a reason you don't shoot deer with a pistol aside from the short effective range: pistol rounds simply don't cause that devastating a shockwave, which is important both in terms of stunning the animal but also in terms of the damage done.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Since I agree with the rest of your post I will only comment on this:

Anyway there's a reason you don't shoot deer with a pistol aside from the short effective range: pistol rounds simply don't cause that devastating a shockwave, which is important both in terms of stunning the animal but also in terms of the damage done.

There's also a reason why most hunters will not shoot deer with FMJ Rifle rounds. Sure, a FMJ round means less meat destroyed and you won't have to pick out the bits of lead, but a JSP is actually going to stop or kill the target more reliably.
Honestly if you're going to hunt with FMJ Rifle or even Assault Rifle rounds, you'd better be a really good shot 'cause with a JSP, the "area" at which you don't need to hit the vital organ is much much larger = more tolerance.

And of course... what man in his right mind would hunt deer with an AK-47 feeding old M43-type ball. In my opinion, that would be like hunting with 5.56mm Armour-Piercing M995. Just impractical and perhaps even inhumane.

So finally to bring this conversation around, we get to Red Orchestra's MkB42(h).
In your opinion you find it's lethality poor. In my opinion I find it's lethality has actually been increased a lot since RO1, and with that, I feel it's a bit too high. But at the end of the day, I'll bet Tripwire isn't going to change anything - they're going to keep it like this, since it's really the in-between road. In their system, it's considerably more powerful than an MP40, but somewhat less powerful than a Kar98k.

p.s. If you shoot AI players they have vastly more health than human players. That may have affected your testing, but I don't know.

 

[gimpy117]

then how do we explain the Mp-40 1 shotting people?

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Since I agree with the rest of your post I will only comment on this:

There's also a reason why most hunters will not shoot deer with FMJ Rifle rounds. Sure, a FMJ round means less meat destroyed and you won't have to pick out the bits of lead, but a JSP is actually going to stop or kill the target more reliably.
Honestly if you're going to hunt with FMJ Rifle or even Assault Rifle rounds, you'd better be a really good shot 'cause with a JSP, the "area" at which you don't need to hit the vital organ is much much larger = more tolerance.

Ofcourse a JSP or JHP will create more devastating wounds with any type of round or caliber, that is clear. The difference however is that a rifle round doesn't need to use a JSP or JHP bullet to reliably incapacitate someone with the first shot, a normal FMJ being more than good enough thanks to the speed at which it's going (temporary cavity & shockwave effect again). Where'as a pistol round on the other hand needs to be shooting JHP bullets in order to be capable of reliably incapacitating someone with the first shot.

And of course... what man in his right mind would hunt deer with an AK-47 feeding old M43-type ball. In my opinion, that would be like hunting with 5.56mm Armour-Piercing M995. Just impractical and perhaps even inhumane.

It can be done, and I wouldn't consider it inhumane as I know it will kill the animal straight away most of the time. But seeing as I have a choice, if I was ever to go hunting with an AK47 I would naturally always choose to use JHP bullets, simply to do my best to further minimize the risk that the animal survives the first shot.

However hunting deer with a pistol, now that I would consider as inhumane, simply because there's a very high chance that the animal doesn't drop with the first shot simply because the slow moving pistol bullet lacks the stun and powerful shockwave of a rifle bullet.

So finally to bring this conversation around, we get to Red Orchestra's MkB42(h).
In your opinion you find it's lethality poor. In my opinion I find it's lethality has actually been increased a lot since RO1, and with that, I feel it's a bit too high. But at the end of the day, I'll bet Tripwire isn't going to change anything - they're going to keep it like this, since it's really the in-between road. In their system, it's considerably more powerful than an MP40, but somewhat less powerful than a Kar98k.

No, I am actually fine with the damage the MKb42 seems to be doing in the retail version of RO2, it has been while recently re-testing the beta that I have discovered the high amount of hits it sometimes takes to take someone out with. Esp. once where I hit someone directly to the right part of the chest, and he didn't go down, which I can assure you he would've done in reality.

p.s. If you shoot AI players they have vastly more health than human players. That may have affected your testing, but I don't know.

Really? Hmm... I actually didn't know this, maybe this might be what caused the inaccuracies I've been complaining about here, cause honestly I can't remember wether I was shooting a bot or a human player the times it happened.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Well, if it was a human player in the beta, then that would be a problem. More testing must be done!

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Well, if it was a human player in the beta, then that would be a problem. More testing must be done!

Roger that, would be great if you tried testing it out for yourself as-well, that way we can be more sure